Better bards

[Salt Merchant]

Bards can be hard to play, at least in the sense of having characters welcome their songs rather than ignoring them.

Here are a couple of obvious suggestions for capturing an audience:

1. Be there when things happen. If you catch wind of something important going down, try to get an invite and note what you see to turn it into song. But don't sing while there. Please. People will be busy.

2. Sing about events that have happened, including names that people recognize. Such songs will be far more interesting (to players at least, which will tend to be reflected in their characters' level of interest).

[My 2 sids]

This is a role-playing game.  For a better-barding experience, those PCs in the audience should participate as well:  add to the over-all setting and atmosphere, offer interaction for the performer, and most importantly (esp. when in Tuluk) Support those bards!!!   It's an art and your PC would appreciate it, both with sids and by reacting appropriately (don't kill a bard who names you)

[Lizzie]

As a player though 2sids, my time is limited. And my idea of RP fun is not parking my character in a room where someone will perform a song that I can't hear, to a tune I'm unfamiliar, and expect me to tap my feet to a rhythm that I am unable to imagine. Especially when it's all done in poorly-written couplets. Nothing screams "log out and play with your cats" more than:

She loved me so, she told me true
I gazed inside her eyes of blue
There was nothing more to do
than raise my sword and kill you.

Okay I lie. That's actually pretty funny. But damn if I'll sit through a whole hour of that shit.

[RogueGunslinger]

So, if you're sitting in a tavern, odds are no one is facilitating role-play anyways, and you're probably just staring at the screen waiting for some action. Are you saying you'd leave if a bard comes in and starts playing or singing? That's kind of stupid.

[Cutthroat]

Bards, just try use proper grammar and spelling, and don't put anachronisms in your songs (especially if you're doing an Earth-to-Zalanthas converted song).

Ain't nothin' else to it. Sing what you like.

[Lizzie]

So, if you're sitting in a tavern, odds are no one is facilitating role-play anyways, and you're probably just staring at the screen waiting for some action. Are you saying you'd leave if a bard comes in and starts playing or singing? That's kind of stupid.

Obviously you don't know me, or my roleplay. I don't "just stare at the screen waiting for some action." Your hypothesis and strawman conclusion don't apply to me, at all.

But yes, if a bard shows up and starts spamming the screen with an hour's worth of screen-scroll then yes, I would give my character a reason to leave. Or maybe I'd just tab over to the web browser and read the GDB, and tab back to nod my character's head every few minutes, if she's stuck there for some IC reason.

[RogueGunslinger]

I see. Maybe I don't play enough in tuluk, but I've never seen any bard play anything near an hours worth of screen scroll. It's clear you're exaggerating, but I think it's a bit much. But I can't help but agree wholeheartedly with you stance. I mean, if two people started an hour long brawl session of low quality rp I'd certainly be leaving too.

All I'm saying is if someone is offering interaction or role play in a tavern of a sort different than 'l amos, l tressed, l wiry' then you should by praising the highlord/muk. Not acting like "OH, this boring ass bullshit again, I'm going to make my pc roll her eyes and go idle in an empty tavern instead."

But then again maybe you don't find it hard to get pc on pc interaction like I do. I do play off peak frequently.

[jcljules]

People tend to forget that one person's annoying hour's worth of screen scroll is another person's dose of Zalanthan atmosphere and another's hard work. I have appreciated the majority of the songs that I've read that bards have composed and I've seen very little "spam," and even less playing while "something important is going down." I don't fault anyone for not liking bards, but that's their fault, not the fault of the bards. If you don't like bards, don't pay attention to their songs. It's not that hard to ignore things, I assure you - and if you truly hate multi-line bard songs, I implore you to try brief songs instead of insulting other people and their contributions to the game. It's on you, not them.

Pertaining to Salt Merchant's points, I agree with the second point and I've seen this in game a lot, believe it or not. As to the first point, I haven't seen a lot of this, but I'd recommend taking it ICly. If a bard is singing a love song during a templar's speech, have them arrested. If a bard is interrupting your brawl, punch them. But don't assume that the bard's seemingly out of place performance is a result of poor play on their part - I hate seeing assumptions like this on the board. Maybe the bard is trying to insult the templar, or stop the brawl, or distract you from something else that's going on. Or annoy you out of the tavern, where there are assassins lying in wait for you.

On a side note, I really don't understand what it is about bards that upsets people so much. It's not a coded skill, it's not some sort of inherent coded or social power... it can't really be spam, otherwise people would be just as upset by people who spam eat in bars... I really just don't understand.

[RogueGunslinger]

Exactly what Jules said.

[jcljules]

More on the topic of the thread and less in response to the bard bashing, here are some actual tips for playing a good bard.

• Rhyme and meter. People like Lizzie will already hate you because they can't imagine your songs, it's just worse if it doesn't have rhyme and meter. If you do have rhyme and meter, there is a sizable minority of people who can imagine the rhythm in their heads and who will enjoy the piece. Like me.
• Make your pieces totally Zalanthan. People hate adapted pieces, in my experience, for having too much real world flavor.
• Have a purpose for your pieces. Use them to insult and humiliate others. That'll get their attention. Use them to praise other characters. Use them to recount interesting tales to other PCs - you might not like bards, but you might love hearing about how that Sorcerer was defeated in that cave that one time.
• Don't just sing. Ask PCs about their lives, gather tales and stories. Play pranks. Tell stories. Perform in other ways. Find ways to incorporate audiences into your performances. Be a gossip.
• Use proper spelling, grammar, punctuation and use the little slash marks to break your pieces up into neat lines.
• Don't be discouraged by assholes.

[Lizzie]

It has nothing to do with quality, or rhyme, or meter. It has to do with sitting there watching the screen scroll and having difficulty dealing with it. Just like the spam-scroll of combat during HRPTs..I avoid those too, for the same reason.

I also don't like reading poetry. I like reciting it, out loud, and hearing it recited, out loud. That might have something to do with it. You could be the next Chaucer but if it's on a screen scroll and I'm not hearing it audibly, then you'll lose my interest. And I -love- Chaucer.

[MarshallDFX]

It has nothing to do with quality, or rhyme, or meter. It has to do with sitting there watching the screen scroll and having difficulty dealing with it. Just like the spam-scroll of combat during HRPTs..I avoid those too, for the same reason.

  I'm trying to find out if Lizzie has a recommendation for playing better bards.  If I had to guess it would be "don't be one", but I have a feeling the terms "straw man" will be used yet again.

I also imagine it must be kind of hard to enjoy a mud, when you can't watch a screen scroll.  Of course, I live for the RPTs and HRPTs.  Adventure, please.

[jcljules]

If you don't like bards, don't pay attention to their songs. It's not that hard to ignore things, I assure you - and if you truly hate multi-line bard songs, I implore you to try brief songs instead of insulting other people and their contributions to the game. It's on you, not them.

I also don't like reading poetry. I like reciting it, out loud, and hearing it recited, out loud. That might have something to do with it. You could be the next Chaucer but if it's on a screen scroll and I'm not hearing it audibly, then you'll lose my interest. And I -love- Chaucer.

Your saying that you don't like bards because you can't hear their songs is akin to a devoted MMORPG player saying that they don't like MUDs because they can't see the world.

Nobody denies that you have a right to dislike bards. But please, dislike bards silently. Because some people like bards and some people play bards and every time posts like yours show up, people think twice before playing a bard. Maybe that's what you want, but it's not what I want.

And I agree, MarshallDFX. Basically Salt Merchant made a thread called "Better bards," and Lizzie must have thought that  'cease to exist' was a good tip for bard players.

[MarshallDFX]

Slogan:  Bash bards in the Gaj.  Not on the GDB.

Do not actually bash bards.  Always remember to use the "hit" command.

[Lizzie]

My reaction was to my2sids, who felt it important that players should support bard characters in game. I disagree. I don't feel it is my obligation to support bard characters in game. I feel put-upon whenever someone makes an attempt to dictate to me how I should roleplay. So rather than bite my ass for having an opinion to that one person's post, why not go back on topic and tell us all how to be better bards? Here's one suggestion:

Don't feel that you must use couplets, or even that you need to rhyme. Creative writing (which is what this is), doesn't require rhymes. Prose doesn't necessitate rhymes, and neither does poetry. Read some poetry by various types of poets to learn rhythms and styles. Rhyming poetry is fun, it can be very beautiful. But it isn't the only type there is, and it definitely isn't the only type that translates well to text.

[jcljules]

Nobody is dictating to you how you should roleplay. My problem is that you are putting down a certain group of players on the boards because of their chosen style of play. You don't have an obligation to support bard characters. But it's never good roleplay to refuse to acknowledge characters or their actions because you OOCly don't like them. Leaving a tavern because you don't like screen scroll is an OOC reaction. Why not take your dislike of bards IC and complain in game? At least that creates some interaction. And who says your character has the same opinion as you? I've had characters hate songs that I OOCly liked and characters who have clapped for songs that I OOCly disliked.

As for going back on topic and telling us all how to be better bards, I did that already if you'll scroll up a bit. Though I know how much you hate screen scroll. But it is good that you're offering some actual advice now - and I'd agree that not all songs have to rhyme. I just suggest rhyming because I've seen people playing non-rhyming bards having trouble getting noticed.

[My 2 sids]

Lizzie, chill.

All I'm saying is a Bard is a very interactive role concept -- one which will be better with more interaction.  Like w/ leadership PCs sometimes a player does have an obligation to give something to the player on the other end to which he or she can interact.   

I'm not sure why people think they can play a game with others and not have some obligation to their fellow players.

[Uberskaapie]

I don't have much to contribute to the mud-slinging, Just wanted to say that I have had so much fun playing southern bards it's ridiculous. OOC, You need to have pretty thick skin.

That being said, OOC I generally feel the same way Lizzie does, but that doesn't stop me from appreciating them in game when it is appropriate to do so. The other thing people need to understand is that everything else in the bar doesn't stop when a bard starts performing. Zalanthan bars aren't the Lincoln Center, They're more like dirty, smokey basement venues where you can barely hear the performers over shouted orders and drunken laughter. Feel free to ignore the performers as your PC might be likely to do anyway. Nobody is forcing your roleplay or expecting you react a certain way.

If it's truly the screen scroll that is the problem, I don't know what to say.

On the topic of "Better Bards" my advice to the would-be performer is not to expect any specific reaction from your audience, and not to be put down by IC insults and heckling. My pc might get pissed at you and refuse to tip, but that doesn't mean I'm not happy for the opportunity to stop idling and get in a fight. We <3 you bards. We need you.

[jcljules]

On the topic of "Better Bards" my advice to the would-be performer is not to expect any specific reaction from your audience, and not to be put down by IC insults and heckling. My pc might get pissed at you and refuse to tip, but that doesn't mean I'm not happy for the opportunity to stop idling and get in a fight. We <3 you bards. We need you.

Definitely. Interaction doesn't have to be nice. It just has to be interaction. I'm sure there are some bard players just waiting to get heckled.

[Kassindra]

I love the concept of bards, however I have never played one myself because I don't know what all goes into it. I'm hoping that this thread proves productive and sheds some light on how to get into playing one. Most times when I encounter a bard and they aren't even that great with their performance, I still applaud the efforts, because if that is what they chose to play, then I as a player will appreciate it and know they also want to enjoy the game, the same way I want to.


Go bards! Hopefully people post some great ways to get others involved who may be toying with the idea of giving this a try in the future.

[Lizzie]

That's pretty much it in a nutshell Uberskapie. I kinda take insult when people attack me for something I never said. Nowhere have I said I don't appreciate the effort and hard work that goes into roleplaying a bardic performance. In fact, I've gone out of my way to state emphatically that I *do* appreciate it.

But just like someone who is tone-deaf - you don't take a tone-deaf person to a symphony, and then ask them how they liked it. All they'll really be able to tell you is "it had a great beat" or "the tympani player was cute!" It doesn't mean they thought the violinist sucked. It doesn't mean they thought the conductor was clueless. It just means they lack the ability to tell.

I have the same lack, when it comes to bardic performances in text. I just don't "get it." For everyone attacking me, calling me an asshole for not appreciating the effort and work that goes into playing the role, maybe you're the one who isn't getting it.

[Salt Merchant]

Things about a bard's performance:

1. It's difficult to tell from verse how good the musicial portion actually is and what sort of response it's worthy of. And yet emoting about the wonders of your playing comes off as something of a power emote too, telling mine how he's supposed to react.

2. Even if your bard is the greatest musician in the world, that simply doesn't transmit through the game media and the resulting experience is less than moving. So this leaves storytelling and content as the prime means to provide a service and be appreciated.

3. Part of the reason that many don't like bards is that they're providing an unsolicited service. A bard that just starts spouting in a busy tavern without an invitation can draw some ire, especially if he starts openly grumping about not being acknowledged or having coins tossed his way afterward. It feels like an interruption to the conversations that were going on, too. Asking first, during a lull in the action, might help. Another approach might be to seek pay from the tavern keeper, sit in a corner, and play unobtrusively to provide a background, without verse. Then maybe now and then someone will ask for a song.

[Lizzie]

Storytelling is perfect for this media. I've seen things as simple as a hunter explaining their last run-in with a halfling, and as complex as a carefully-woven historic tale, that have really been entertaining to watch. It also completely eliminates the need to translate the sound of your melody to text. You can even scatter rhyming schemes into the story, or alliterations (especially for comic effect).

The best part about storytelling, is you don't really have to do any planning in advance. If you know you have 3 minutes, and you know the topic, you can put something together on the fly and embellish as needed. You can also tell a story about the most ridiculous things, and make it interesting, or worth watching. You can do that with songs too, but songs need a melody, generally need some kind of rhythm. A story doesn't need any of that. It just needs a fair imagination, and a fair understanding of the emote system.

[JustAnotherGuy]

I thought at one point to make a bard that was more of  Storyteller and a News Monger.  Traveling from place to place passing news and information as he goes about his travels, hoping for tips to survive.  That I would think would make an interesting bard.

[Fredd]

i have sang many times in taverns.
granted i may not know how to do that formatting, but use paragraph from. it's never been ignored. even if the song itself is horrid.