Sundays RPT

[Aaron Goulet]

I like the focus on player-driven plots with staff support, rather than staff-driven plots with player support.  That's one positive change I've noticed since I came back from my several-year hiatus.

[Synthesis]

Hey, look, IC information about the RPT. But not anymore.

[Decameron]

Also:  at the same time, it could be argued that the amount of support that was involved by one city-state actually vastly underestimates the sort of force it reasonably would be able to muster.  At least two Houses were pretty severely under-represented, from what I saw.

Lot of assumptions in a little sentence. Allow me to explain .. Find out IC. 

[X-D]

I agree with others that one side was indeed left out to dry staff side.

The virtual world IMO was ignored by staff on that side.

Also, Even if both sides would have had equal numbers of PCs (and it was closer then some might think) Every clan involved on the one side had the ability to bring along NPCs without staff help. NONE of the other clans have that ability.

On a side note of the matter of NPCs, I do not think NPCs should be allowed outside a clans area of control unless staff is animating. PC controlled NPCs are treated as cannon fodder, brainless zombies with very high skills. They do not flee, they do not turn traitor, they cannot be bribed, they do not get hungry or thirsty.

Hell, there are still many of the one side out there, standing in place, ignored because they do not matter.

If staff is indeed letting things be PC driven and decided then it is up to them to make sure it is PCs.

In this RPT, there was no less then 10 NPC mobs involved, at least three being unit types So are supposed to count as 10-25 more npcs.

So, 30+ mindless automatons without fear or feelings and expendable as an arrow.

And THAT is the REAL reason there was no fight. Because nobody is willing to throw away a PC verses a mob of NPCs. Which means it was OOC reasoning more then anything.

(edit)
Oh, and though I don't really like how the RPT was handled.

I DO like the end results....well, the results so far, so, Kudos to staff on that.

[Salt Merchant]

Is it any surprise that a city of 500,000 with thousands of trained soldiers could "bring more to the party"?

For people who speak of balance of NPCs, there easily could have been an entire legion there, realistically.

[X-D]

The tribal numbers, according to staff in the past outnumber both the city states combined. True, 95% of them are closed for play or virtual. And of course they do not all live in the area in question.

But I really REALLY doubt the leg work was done by the PCs planning the event to get permission from them, they were ignored by all sides but one.

But my arguement is not so much against the use of NPCs, but the way they are used, and the fact that they have no AI...hell, even certain gith have good enough scripts to run away. NPCs are NOT treated as living people when PCs control them, hell, it is rare when staff controls them.

I've personally watched staffers throw wave after wave after wave of "thinking" Beings at something. Even gith should be smart enough to go, "Huh, we just lost 200 friends, family, brothers, fathers and the enemy has taken light damage, lets run." But no.

Or groups of three or so halflings attack a group of ten bynners, come on now, halflings are supposed to be smart, I'm sure they can count.

Look at my sig, I have that because I've seen something like that exactly 1 time, and there it is. My PC was well known to the gith tribes, had many fun interactions, and the first and only staffer I've dealt with in nearly 20 years that brings NPCs to life in a realistic fashion.

[Salt Merchant]

The tribal numbers, according to staff in the past outnumber both the city states combined. True, 95% of them are closed for play or virtual. And of course they do not all live in the area in question.

Going off on a tangent, I don't see how this could be. The empty wastelands out there are pretty much that.. empty wastelands. Now and then one stumbles across a collection of tents with no agriculture. Hunting never supported large populations.

My major complaint:  I thought they fixed "unit" mobs attacking individual PCs.  However, reverse disarming an ENTIRE UNIT was pretty amusing.

Hahaha.. that was a good one. Brought to mind one of these modern martial arts flicks where the hero makes some physically impossible but utterly impressive move. I can picture that guy flying through the air, disarming each in turn as he passes.

[X-D]

I really should search out all the fully virtual tribes names, there are a lot.

But I know of 2 human tribes, one used to be playable, the docs state around 45k, At least one elf tribe has been said to be over 15k, closed for play as well. Another human tribe never open for play but recently active, staff claims is also massive, maybe the largest of them.

Last time I spoke with a staffer on the matter, I was told there was more then 30 tribes outside cities, and that is not counting several gith tribes, the halflings or the mantis.

[SmashedTregil]

The tribal numbers, according to staff in the past outnumber both the city states combined. True, 95% of them are closed for play or virtual. And of course they do not all live in the area in question.

But I really REALLY doubt the leg work was done by the PCs planning the event to get permission from them, they were ignored by all sides but one.

No, legwork was done. The reaction to the legwork was "Meh. It is your choice." From some, and "nothing" from others.


I myself have noo problems about how the HRPT was done. What I have a problem with is how "little" and by little I mean "zero" impact did the actions of the <other side> have on the virtual population BEFORE the HRPT. I mean ... people were meeting, gathering, trying to make plans. But it always ended up being ... what does the X (The strongest and most populous albeit virtual clan in the region) say? The answer was ... Uhhh, still waiting on them. What do your elders of your own clan say? "Uhh .. they say it is up to us." What do you mean it's up to us? Up to whom? "Blank stares as people look around"

10 PCs sit, twiddling their thumbs because they are generally of "equal" rank. There were no "sponsored roles" amongst the side, therefore leaders arise over long periods of time. And when there arent any, it is ... silly to expect the amount of support a "sponsored role hierarchy" type clan gets to be as effective for an "everyone are near same rank"  type of clan. My personal opinion is that the ball was "completely" dropped by the Imms of the <opposing> side. Not because they did not do what is generally done in such situations (allow the players to make their own and guide their own plots and reactions), but because they failed to realize that such a thing 'will not WORK' in the current situation, and failed to make some kind of effort to ... MAKE IT work somehow. Work with the playerbase to allow them to guide their plots, and at the same time not take over the plot themselves. There were certainly options to do it, hell ... simple positive encouragement and appearing to be receptive would probably done a lot of good. Instead of a Elder response "do what you like" with the final usefulness of "zero".

Dont get me wrong, forget Immortal support, in the end of things it was up to PCs and if it ment their deaths then ... so be it. But can you really 'blame' the person for failing to make the decision, when he/she sees HUNDREDS ahead of them, and like ... 10 behind him/her? With apperent apathy from ... the entire virtual population of the whole region?  As far as I can see, if the PCs without Immortal support decided to fight that day and ... WON (they did have a chance. Though it falls into the <disarming the whole unit> category in my opinion). Then you know what ... it would feel to me no different, then an assassin logging in at 5 am, backstabbing every single NPC soldier to templar to death, and by 8 am in the morning, taking up the residence in Tek's tower.

edited: Altered and removed some pieces to somewhat soften the article. The Imms dont really deserve "that" much heat, but perhaps ... some. I was somewhat annoyed when I wrote the original post, mainly due to people saying there was no legwork done, even though ... there was. 

[Cutthroat]

Maybe, just maybe, that "lack of support" felt was actually... IC?

Just saying.

And if you don't agree, and think you were left out to dry, then privately ask the staff why that is, instead of airing out your complaints in a forum where the staff cannot directly respond.

I DO like the end results....well, the results so far, so, Kudos to staff on that.

Agreed. Hopefully the people who were disappointed by the RPT will find ICly reacting to the end results fun.

[AmandaGreathouse]

I thought they fixed "unit" mobs attacking individual PCs.  However, reverse disarming an ENTIRE UNIT was pretty amusing.

Not to derail... but all I can think of is Neo and the huge amount of Agent Smiths. I now wish, even harder, I could have seen some of the action.

[Nyr]

Alright, I'm going to lock the thread.  For those of you that liked the RPT, awesome.  For those of you that found problems with it, you should mention it to your clan staff.  (Like I said.)  There comes a time to drop the issue.  That time comes when you continue to bring up the same issue after you've been asked to bring it up with your staff.

I don't like to shut things down to get the last word or anything--I just don't think any progress is being made here, and things are drifting more and more into exact IC points.  I'll reiterate some points and make a few new ones based on recent posts.

1.  The city states each have upwards of 400,000 people.  There are not that many(almost a million?  really?) tribals out there.
2.  There were not that many NPCs at all involved in that event.  Complaining about vast numbers (hundreds?  bleh)  is incorrect and unrelated to this event; even if it were accurate, small forces can always trump larger forces with better planning, tactics, and familiarity the surroundings.  How many times have you heard of X rogue magicker, sorcerer, etc. eluding city-states all by themselves?  One PC causing all sorts of trouble?  That happens.
3.  Speculating on these IC events on the GDB is stupid.  Armchair quarterbacking an RPT after the fact is something you can do on your own time IC; don't do it on the GDB.  You (not any of you specifically, but you collectively) should know better.
4.  We have changed staff policy this year, but even before this year, we did our best to have players be the determining factors in as much as possible (see:  Copper War, Gith War, Mantis attacks, etc.).
5.  Finally, and most importantly, if you are going to do something major or want assistance or whatever, you should wish up.  As much as it might be unbelievable to you that the virtual world was not animated to your satisfaction, it is equally unbelievable to us that an entire swath of players did not wish up once about this--yet both of these happened (per logs), and one could easily have been the direct cause of the other.

One more point about "not being a sponsored leader" and surrounded by folks of "equal rank."  Sometimes leaders don't arise over long periods of time.  Sometimes they arise when someone decides "Okay, here's what we are going to do."  (Based on documentation, previous discussions, etc.  Hell, based on anything.  Leaders sometimes make shitty decisions, but at least they act like leaders.)   We'll be glad to reward player initiative in that case.  I don't care what clan you are in, initiative to do something productive on the spot that makes sense for your clan will get rewarded.  

Everyone had staff support for this.  Some people chose to utilize it in advance.  Some had to utilize some on the spot.  Some didn't let us know they wanted it or needed it.  Use this experience as motivation to do things differently and communicate with your staff on how to improve all of that communication in the future--don't get bent out of shape about it on the GDB.

Thanks.