Gender Roles on Zalanthas -- RP nuances

[Salt Merchant]

There are plenty of opportunities for male vs. female struggle and politics in the world. A prime example is when a female decides to go off birth control (mul mix) and have a child without telling her partner. Or when a female tells one male the child is his when it really is someone else's. I can see this being especially disruptive in the nobility. Since some men would be aware they could be tricked by women this way, they might take measures to ensure any child is theirs. And so on.

[My 2 sids]

I do not think the imms will ever do as you say 2 'sid. To be honest, I hope they don't. This isn't a 14th Century remake where men fight wars and women teach/birth/don't talk. That honestly doesn't sound enjoyable to me either. In the beginning of Islam, they were involved in the development of the religion not merely as wives and daughters but also as warriors, consultants and scholars. They carried the word of Islam and served as accessible role models for women. I will grant that we could add a lot of strife to the game by making it gender bias, but who would enjoy that? Oppression of the female = PC Slavery = Not allowed in Armageddon.

Please change the subject. This is going nowhere and it is not what this thread is about.

I think you totally missed my point, Delstro

No one is saying "lets go to Fairytale land"   What I'm saying is this entire thread is based on something which doesn't even happen in game!!  


You want absolutely no gender assignment -- play a mul.   The rest of us will play humanoids w/ a gender because (as shocking as this is) it's funnn!

[jcljules]

A woman is as good as a man for any role, and visa versa. You don't have to play a stereotypical behavior, yet you may play any stereotypical behavior you want to. There is no standard. No behavior is manly or womanly. No behavior is normal. No behavior is abnormal.

This does not make it so that men are biologically equal to women, nor are women biologically equal to men. But there is no behavior expectations - no scenario in which men and women are expected to act a certain way dependent on their sex. Nor is there any respecter of sex in regards to doing a particular job correctly. Culturally, men and women are equal in all cultural aspects.

I think this point is important. I've seen people put down for playing "conventional" roles. Like a female playing a prissy aide, or a man playing a grizzled hunter. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that. If someone wants to play a prissy, female aide, they shouldn't be regarded as part of the problem for that. The only problem here is when people put down a woman who wants to be a grizzled hunter, or a man who wants to be a prissy aide.

[ibusoe]

I think this point is important. I've seen people put down for playing "conventional" roles. Like a female playing a prissy aide, or a man playing a grizzled hunter. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that. If someone wants to play a prissy, female aide, they shouldn't be regarded as part of the problem for that. The only problem here is when people put down a woman who wants to be a grizzled hunter, or a man who wants to be a prissy aide.

[AmandaGreathouse]

Lots of people say that they don't play the other gender because they don't think they could roleplay it, even though by one of the core rules of the game, men and women are exactly the same. You shouldn't have trouble roleplaying someone of a certain sex compared to the other sex, because in Zalanthas, sex has nothing to do with anything besides sex.

I read a lot of those "I don't trust myself to RP the other sex" comments to mean "Sure, men and women are equal in Zalanthas, but they're not really equal." I refrained from commenting as such in that thread.

I've seen roles where I've found a good deal of sexism IG and roles where I've found almost none. I do think it's a bit discouraging that my crafter PCs that are more or less successful than male crafter PCs are generally let be, but have had people give my combat PCs a hard time for, for example, coming away from a sparring match with a broken wrist (for more specifics, it was a hit to the wrist which shaved off 1/3 of my HP in a single hit. Yeah, I'd say it nearly took the hand clean off).

I did wish to address your post though, hyzenhok, which I've bolded for emphasis:

  I don't mean to imply in any way that males and females are unequal in any way. But there are hard-wired differences in the way male and femal brains work due to the testosterone or estrogen flowing through the person, starting as early as in utero.

Sex = male and female

Gender = masculine and feminine

So in essence:

Sex refers to biological differences; chromosomes, hormonal profiles, internal and external sex organs.

Gender describes the characteristics that a society or culture delineates as masculine or feminine.

So while your sex as male or female is a biological fact that is the same in any culture, what that sex means in terms of your gender role as a 'man' or a 'woman' in society can be quite different cross culturally. These 'gender roles' have an impact on the health of the individual.

In sociological terms 'gender role' refers to the characteristics and behaviours that different cultures attribute to the sexes. What it means to be a 'real man' in any culture requires male sex plus what our various cultures define as masculine characteristics and behaviours, likewise a 'real woman' needs female sex and feminine characteristics.

So, no, I wouldn't want to make a PC where I would always FTB on mudsex because I didn't know for myself how my PC would be feeling as a result of them having a different set of genitals. Likewise, I hate watching obvious 'lesbian' mudsex between what would seem to be 14 year old boys. There are, of course, other reasons as well, but with my pcs and their track records (of usually having romance as a pretty high priority), I would already have a dislike of the alienness of it. But then there are other things as well, (ie, being punched/kicked/mutilated genitally, having certain garments a PC simply 'dislikes' because of the fit, etc.). Truthfully, it's much the same reason that I've only played 1 elf. It gives me a completely alien body IG, so it makes me feel more disconnected from the character, and feel like I don't know them as well, and leads to my questioning my RP to the point where it becomes a chore to play.

[ibusoe]

All these differences you keep pointing out seem to me to point to why there would be differences in gender roles. To me it seems the feminist legions want to be bad ass man killers but oh I still want there to be frilly dresses just for my sex cause we're cute. Then we get to the point where oh its natural cause they have teh babies. Alright, then -likely- they would have a different role in the society with all these differences.

It's not an issue of feminism.  I hate feminism.  This is a game. 

I don't think it should be that hard to play by the rules, which means recognizing equalization of the sexes inside of the game.

[My 2 sids]

They could add a rule in game that all humanoids have four hands -- but I'd wager that the majority of players wouldn't have their PCs use hand numbers 3 and 4.  Why?  because it's so far out of the realm of possibility many players simply wouldn't enjoy RPing that way.

The folks who are screaming "every gender is the same", a question for you.   Have you ever played a PC w/ a different sex than your own?  Why?

[ibusoe]

They could add a rule in game that all humanoids have four hands -- but I'd wager that the majority of players wouldn't have their PCs use hand numbers 3 and 4.  Why?  because it's so far out of the realm of possibility many players simply wouldn't enjoy RPing that way.

The folks who are screaming "every gender is the same", a question for you.   Have you ever played a PC w/ a different sex than your own?  Why?

No one is debating the realism of gender equality.  I wouldn't say gender equality is any more realistic than magic.*  What I was attempting to bring to discussion is whether or not it's better to ignore this particular rule.

I'm not sure where your question is leading, but I don't mind answering it.

Yes, I played a woman once.  In real life I'm a male.  Why did I do it?  Admittedly, I was so sure that everyone would go so easy on my character that I'd soon be a Colonel in House Kurac.  Secretly, I probably wanted to prove how easy it was just so that I could complain about it.  My character was "typically female" in terms of hygiene  preferences and being somewhat quiet, but "typically male" in terms of career choice and willingness to face danger. 

My experience was surprising.  I was so swamped with male attention that I didn't know how women could stand it full time.  Rather than having an easier time, I had a tougher time -- I had too many eyes on me to maneuver and get any politics done.  While my character had it very easy in terms of being safe and cared for, I couldn't identify any vector for her to advance in the ranks.  Players of male characters projected their own desire for my character to be a stupid plaything onto the character.

I didn't enjoy this at all.  I'd never play a female character again.

[My 2 sids]

The realism of gender equality is what this entire thread is about!    Unless there is some basis for the rule (either OOCly or preferably ICly) the rule shouldn't exist -- it throws too much off with it's randomness.

My point with the question is this:  If genders were exactly the same, there would be no point in choosing one over the other.  But, you chose a specific gender because you _wanted_ to play that gender role.  So, you yourself (even if things worked out differently than your expectations) wanted separation between the genders.  People may not want the gender role assignments that come with some fairy-tale type muds (thus, the rule) BUT, they also don't want to be hindered from playing the separation of gender stereotypes

[Synthesis]

The realism of gender equality is what this entire thread is about!    Unless there is some basis for the rule (either OOCly or preferably ICly) the rule shouldn't exist -- it throws too much off with it's randomness.

My point with the question is this:  If genders were exactly the same, there would be no point in choosing one over the other.  But, you chose a specific gender because you _wanted_ to play that gender role.  So, you yourself (even if things worked out differently than your expectations) wanted separation between the genders.  People may not want the gender role assignments that come with some fairy-tale type muds (thus, the rule) BUT, they also don't want to be hindered from playing the separation of gender stereotypes

There is no rule that states you can't play a girly-girl or a macho man.

I don't see what the problem is.

[LauraMars]

Players of male characters projected their own desire for my character to be a stupid plaything onto the character.

I didn't enjoy this at all.  I'd never play a female character again.

I'm pretty sure most girls are used to this, and regularly use it to their advantage.  That goes for real life, too.

[Pale Horse]

I think this thread has degenerated into just 'back and forth', repeats and rewordings of the same opinions.

Bottom line, as I see it, is play as you like.  In a world where there are no set gender roles and physical toughness and strengths are equal amongst both sexes, any gender role can be adopted (and likely has) by any man or woman.  Girly-girls, manly-men, manly-girls, girly-men, ravenous-mutants, nest-sitting elves, whatever.  It's all cool.

Just be aware that there are those that might take offense to what you do, seeing as how it crosses their personal morals and ideas as wrong.  And those of you taking offense, realize that you are now the minority, since the majority of Zalanthan's don't really care (according to the documentation).  Minorities, especially Zalanthan minorities, have this tendency to be "put in their places" by the majority, historically speaking.

[Is Friday]

I don't think women are being taken advantage of in game, I think weak-willed people are being taken advantage of. Play somebody (male or female) that isn't a pussy and then you won't be treated like a plaything.

[Rairen]

Players of male characters projected their own desire for my character to be a stupid plaything onto the character.

I didn't enjoy this at all.  I'd never play a female character again.

I'm pretty sure most girls are used to this, and regularly use it to their advantage.  That goes for real life, too.

They're trainable to not do that.  Unless I have something I need done.  Or I want to draw it out and crush them later.  Or they're cute.