Gender Roles on Zalanthas -- RP nuances

[KankWhisperer]

Is it proper rp to laugh or give odd looks at a man wearing a dress?

Probably.

DO: Comment on the funny fit.
DON'T: Impugn his sexuality.

Yeah, that's what I was thinking. A man wearing a dress in Zalanthas is funny because a dress is made for a woman's body. Its not effeminate or gay or sexually deviant - its just weird, cause you're wearing clothes that obviously aren't made to fit you.

Why are dresses only made for women, if the sexes are equal ?

[spicemustflow]

I take enough crap in the real world for being an intelligent, outspoken woman from a lot of backwards-thinking men AND women, in my real life and career, and I just don't want that in my fantasy escape game.

Yes, but you can murder them in your fantasy escape game.

You can't in real life?

No, she is a woman.

[Marauder Moe]

Why are dresses only made for women, if the sexes are equal ?

There are plenty of man-dresses in Armageddon.  Kilts for one, robes, and a dozen other robe-like non-leg-specific garment types for men.

[brytta.leofa]

Is it proper rp to laugh or give odd looks at a man wearing a dress?

Probably.

DO: Comment on the funny fit.
DON'T: Impugn his sexuality.

Yeah, that's what I was thinking. A man wearing a dress in Zalanthas is funny because a dress is made for a woman's body. Its not effeminate or gay or sexually deviant - its just weird, cause you're wearing clothes that obviously aren't made to fit you.

Why are dresses only made for women, if the sexes are equal ?

If they were equal in the way you're implying, the staff would forbid the use of "man" and "woman" in sdescs: The human with no templar has arrived from the north.  Despite being equally strong and equally unlikely to tear the anterior cruciate ligament whilst playing basketball, Zalanthan women have hips and other features necessary to make dress-wearing look non-ridiculous.

I take enough crap in the real world for being an intelligent, outspoken woman from a lot of backwards-thinking men AND women, in my real life and career, and I just don't want that in my fantasy escape game.

Yes, but you can murder them in your fantasy escape game.

You can't in real life?

Yes, you can; no, you mayn't.

[brytta.leofa]

Why are dresses only made for women, if the sexes are equal ?

There are plenty of man-dresses in Armageddon.  Kilts for one, robes, and a dozen other robe-like non-leg-specific garment types for men.

Kilts and robes are one thing.  But please, for the love of Tektolnes, not this:

Gage Gritshaw

[Gimfalisette]

Clearly not, that dress is Tuluki-style all the way.

[KankWhisperer]

So what you are saying is that certain types of robes are only for women to wear. I am saying if there is no real distinction between the sexes why would a robe for a woman be called a dress in the first place?

[Pale Horse]

So what you are saying is that certain types of robes are only for women to wear. I am saying if there is no real distinction between the sexes why would a robe for a woman be called a dress in the first place?

Now you're just being silly.  Obviously there's distinctions between men and women, or Zalanthan (demi)humans would all be hermaphrodites.  Just as there's differences between the words "men" and "women", "male" and "female" there's differences between the sexes, so there's going to be different words for clothing of different functions.

"Dress," for example.  It's a body covering.  Well, we all wear body coverings.  What's it's specific use?  Specifically, it's a body covering designed to fit a woman person, who has curves where a man person does not.  There for the funny name, to specify to all those who encounter one, that it is a body covering designed for a woman person who has curves.

[brytta.leofa]

So what you are saying is that certain types of robes are only for women to wear. I am saying if there is no real distinction between the sexes why would a robe for a woman be called a dress in the first place?

Because they're distinctly different garments.  Even in Zalanthas, male humanoids don't have any need for a bodice.

[Gimfalisette]

"Dress" doesn't imply that something has a bodice, however. A dress can be a completely loose garment. There's really no reason a male PC couldn't wear something sdesced as "dress." There isn't any consistency even in how those items are desced.

There are also other dress-like items that do not have "dress" in the sdesc. Kalasiri are dress-like.

I think y'all are fussing too much over this issue. PCs should wear what the PC wants to wear, with attention to social status, culture, and appropriateness of garment.

[Delstro]

To be a dress, it would need a bodice. If it didn't have a bodice, it would be a skirt. That may just be a technical name for the upper portion of a dress.
None the less. It is designed for a woman's shape. A robe is a cape or cloak with sleeves.

Robe is not equal to a dress. A robe an outer garment. A dress can be worn with a robe over it. A robe cannot be worn with a dress over it.

Let us change subjects, yes?

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Saying that males and females are equal does not require conversation about garb designed to enhance sexual features. Whether women can lead a unit of soldiers as well as a man or not, breasts and hips will always be a female feature designed for their natural function in the reproductive side of things, and likewise, always a feature to be enhanced for social and romantic reasons. Whether the male is perfectly capable of playing concubine to Lord/Lady High-and-Mighty or not, the pelvic region will be an area to be guarded and/or enhanced (assuming he's no eunuch), and a natural tool designed for reproductive purposes.

Equality refers to equal, unprejudiced opportunity, not to why dresses are made for woman and cod-pieces for males.

[Lizzie]

It's pretty clear cut to me Kank Whisperer. "Equal to" does not mean "identical to." Men are not the same as women. Women are not the same as men. Socially they have equal status. Physically they have equal capacity to murder/death/kill.

Men, however, cannot bear young. Women do not have penises. Men, unless they're mutants, don't grow their mammaries. Women, unless they are mutants, don't grow full beards and chest hair. Men, unless they are mutants, don't have the curves needed to look good in a dress designed to show off the breasts and accentuate their child-bearing hips, and women, unless they are mutants, have little-to-no need for codpieces (a kick to the groin will still hurt like hell but isn't nearly as likely to incapacitate a woman as it is for a man).

[Yam]

It's pretty clear cut to me Kank Whisperer. "Equal to" does not mean "identical to." Men are not the same as women. Women are not the same as men. Socially they have equal status. Physically they have equal capacity to murder/death/kill.

Men, however, cannot bear young. Women do not have penises. Men, unless they're mutants, don't grow their mammaries. Women, unless they are mutants, don't grow full beards and chest hair. Men, unless they are mutants, don't have the curves needed to look good in a dress designed to show off the breasts and accentuate their child-bearing hips, and women, unless they are mutants, have little-to-no need for codpieces (a kick to the groin will still hurt like hell but isn't nearly as likely to incapacitate a woman as it is for a man).

Mutations are common.

[Xeran Van Houten]

It's pretty clear cut to me Kank Whisperer. "Equal to" does not mean "identical to." Men are not the same as women. Women are not the same as men. Socially they have equal status. Physically they have equal capacity to murder/death/kill.

Men, however, cannot bear young. Women do not have penises. Men, unless they're mutants, don't grow their mammaries. Women, unless they are mutants, don't grow full beards and chest hair. Men, unless they are mutants, don't have the curves needed to look good in a dress designed to show off the breasts and accentuate their child-bearing hips, and women, unless they are mutants, have little-to-no need for codpieces (a kick to the groin will still hurt like hell but isn't nearly as likely to incapacitate a woman as it is for a man).

Mutations are common.

I believe Admiral Ackbar agrees with Yam...
There's a reason some "people" are refered to as a "trap"...  or at the very least you've never tried to google search for a new animal trap for your next hunting trip... *cough*...

[Marauder Moe]

So what you are saying is that certain types of robes are only for women to wear. I am saying if there is no real distinction between the sexes why would a robe for a woman be called a dress in the first place?

To answer that, I'd probably have to be fluent in Sirihish.  Maybe they don't have a separate word for dress.  Or maybe they do, and it's an archaic leftover from the the time of the Council of Kings and all.

In English, though, we do have a word for that type of garment, so we might as well use it in the game.

[KankWhisperer]

All these differences you keep pointing out seem to me to point to why there would be differences in gender roles. To me it seems the feminist legions want to be bad ass man killers but oh I still want there to be frilly dresses just for my sex cause we're cute. Then we get to the point where oh its natural cause they have teh babies. Alright, then -likely- they would have a different role in the society with all these differences.

[Lizzie]

That sounds more like a player complaint regarding a lack of consistency in what you're observing in specific people. I'm inclined to agree, but it doesn't really have anything to do with documented gender roles.  If your character is gonna be all giggly and girlish and fruity and frilly and lace-loving pink-wearing tee hee coy, then you should -expect- people to think your character is pretty damned crazy, or stupid, for joining the Byn. Likewise, if you're playing a character who behaves like the Terminator, then don't be surprised when her peers can't wrap their minds around her desire to have twins and stick her spouse with a monogamous relationship with her forever and ever because he's such a wuvvy mooshy wooshy smookie nugglums.

Delicate = bad idea to join the Byn. Whether your character is male or female. It doesn't matter. The Byn is not for the delicate types who sniff and whine about breaking a nail or getting blood on their beautiful new silk sleeves.

Rough = not the most suitable for work involving diplomacy and requiring impeccable ettiquette. If you wanna play a floor-spitting, crotch-grabbing, vulgar-talking street-wench, then it doesn't make much sense to suddenly turn on the giggles and swoons and girly hair-flips and coy gazes, just because a guy whose player knows how to emote well walks into the room and you wanna mudsex him. Or if your character is male, doesn't make sense for him to suddenly become "sensitive" with the first female PC with the word "buxom" in her main desc.

Again, it's not a matter of gender roles, that I think you have an issue with. I think it's more a matter of roleplay consistency. I see lots and lots of people playing consistently - their "girly girls" are well fleshed out in personality, with depth, and with understanding that they're putting these characters into a virtual world filled with ugliness. And lots of people playing "manly men" whose testosterone levels don't suddenly change to suit the player's needs/desires/fetishes. And girly men, and manly women..these adjectives -do- fit..there -are- girly men, and manly women, and manly men, and girly women. It's the ones whose players can't, or choose not to play them consistently that I think is the problem. Not the adjectives themselves.

[musashi]

Alright, then -likely- they would have a different role in the society with all these differences.

Good points Lizzie ... but just to add to this; it has already been pointed out in this thread (more than once I think) that women and men DO have different roles in some societies in Zalanthas. You can not be a Lirathan Templar with a penis. You can not be a Jiahen Templar without one. Many tribes have elders or guiding councils who for whatever reason have to be either male or female.

But I think the distinction is supposed to be that the reason for these segregations is not because society believes one gender to be weaker than the other. Although I admit that seems like an OOC reason stuck onto to something rather than an actual IC justification.

I mean ... the fact that some tribes will be led (organized and kept in line and managed) by a woman or women, but will have a head warrior/hunter/macho type who is obviously a man screams RL gender roles from a modern woman's point of view, to me. So does the Tuluki Templarate system.

In the new game, I would prefer that staff either eliminated gender roles from the game entirely with no examples of it at all (so a man and woman really can join any group and rise to any rank based on skill rather than reproductive organs) or ... that they made sure gender roles were balanced either within every culture, or within the world as a whole. So if you want to go play in a society where women are deemed weaker, go play in this tribe... if you want the amazons who treat men like slaves, go play in that tribe, ect ect.

[My 2 sids]

But I think the distinction is supposed to be that the reason for these segregations is not because society believes one gender to be weaker than the other. Although I admit that seems like an OOC reason stuck onto to something rather than an actual IC justification.

This whole "no gender roles!" reminds me of the "one night stands are the norm/ no one ever has a long-term relationship" mentality:  screaming of someone's OOC fear of...  something?

There isn't a whole lot of IC justification and truthfully it probably inhibits more role-play than it promotes.   Why?  Because shocking as this might be the majority of Arm players are people!   Why else would we be given a choice as to the gender of our character (why not automatically assign one to the PC) Gender wars/ relationships -- all usually done in fun, not to be offensive.   

There are no stat inhibitors, no glass ceilings  so what is up with 5+ pages of PC police???

[Delstro]

I do not think the imms will ever do as you say 2 'sid. To be honest, I hope they don't. This isn't a 14th Century remake where men fight wars and women teach/birth/don't talk. That honestly doesn't sound enjoyable to me either. In the beginning of Islam, they were involved in the development of the religion not merely as wives and daughters but also as warriors, consultants and scholars. They carried the word of Islam and served as accessible role models for women. I will grant that we could add a lot of strife to the game by making it gender bias, but who would enjoy that? Oppression of the female = PC Slavery = Not allowed in Armageddon.

Please change the subject. This is going nowhere and it is not what this thread is about.

[saquartey]

To an extent, some gender roles are natural - women give birth and men don't.  That's a pretty big deal.  But the gender constructs that came with the dawn of civilization are not natural.  As such, I think the "no gender roles" in Zalanthas means "no glass ceilings and significantly less influential gender roles that can be twisted or bent at will."

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Natural assignment of sexual roles does not equal cultural assignment of sexual roles. Just because women are biologically equipped to carry babies and for certain types of clothing to be better looking on them than on the male of the species, does not mean that the woman can not be a leader, role model, politician, aide, soldier, explorer, or anything else.

I think it's foolish to argue against dresses looking better on females than on men, or to debate robe vs. dress. Clothing hardly espouses role. If a man decides to wear a dress, then it will automatically look odd on him, because it is not designed for him, period. That said, there is no law against doing it, so the discussion again becomes mote.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

A woman is as good as a man for any role, and visa versa. You don't have to play a stereotypical behavior, yet you may play any stereotypical behavior you want to. There is no standard. No behavior is manly or womanly. No behavior is normal. No behavior is abnormal.

This does not make it so that men are biologically equal to women, nor are women biologically equal to men. But there is no behavior expectations - no scenario in which men and women are expected to act a certain way dependent on their sex. Nor is there any respecter of sex in regards to doing a particular job correctly. Culturally, men and women are equal in all cultural aspects.

[Pale Horse]

It feels like we're slipping a little bit too far into RL aspects of gender equality.

Zalanthas=/=Earth, as we all know.

Zalanthas does not have the gender roles as we, as people of [insert your country here], know it.  My own personal opinion is that all the gender roles we experience, at least in the United States, exist in Zalanthas in one form or another, but they're just not attached to any one sex.  The role you think of as fitting a 'Nurturer', which for the most part, those of us in the US have been trained from childhood to think is a woman's roll, could be filled by either a man or a woman without any sort of social stigma attached to it, in Zalanthas.

..Maybe that's more my personal hope and idea of the game world.  I like to think that any combination of 'gender roles' could be found in an individual raised in an environment where, supposedly, there are no prejudices against men or women assuming what they would want to, based on their likes, dislikes, the way they were taught, etc.