Gender Roles on Zalanthas -- RP nuances

[FantasyWriter]

I think the concern there is over how much the roles of the two Tuluki Templarate orders reflect traditional RL views of gender roles.

[Gimfalisette]

I think the concern there is over how much the roles of the two Tuluki Templarate orders reflect traditional RL views of gender roles.

Eh, yeah, I'm not totally fond of the too-stereotypical way it was divided up, but since their abilities come 100% from Muk himself...it still doesn't say anything about the basic nature of male or female in Zalanthas. It's just sort of OOCly irritating.

[spicemustflow]

I find it OOCly irritating that you think that any such division in the game world is sexist and shouldn't be allowed.

[a strange shadow]

Dude, you guys are getting caught up on the example and completely missing my point, which is this:

As can the tailors tell the difference between a male and a female body and therefore make feminine armor with enough space for tits. What's the problem there again? An elf wouldn't wear something made to be worn by a dwarf.

[Gimfalisette]

I find it OOCly irritating that you think that any such division in the game world is sexist and shouldn't be allowed.

...what? That is not even close to what I said. I don't have an issue with there being gender-segregated roles in the game. What niggles at me is the fact that Lirathans got the more stereotypically "feminine" role and Jihaens got the more stereotypically "masculine" role. That is all. Please stop putting words in my mouth.

[spicemustflow]

I find it OOCly irritating that you think that any such division in the game world is sexist and shouldn't be allowed.

...what? That is not even close to what I said. I don't have an issue with there being gender-segregated roles in the game. What niggles at me is the fact that Lirathans got the more stereotypically "feminine" role and Jihaens got the more stereotypically "masculine" role. That is all. Please stop putting words in my mouth.

Ok, now that I've reread the thread you really didn't say that explicitly. Sorry.

Still, this sound suspiciously similar:

And feminine, IIRC. It would probably be better not to have items desced in that manner in the game.

[Cutthroat]

I've seen this explained before somewhere, but I think a lot of the gender-segregated roles we see today are the result of a majority consisting of one gender (in this case, males) founding the world and making decisions on the lore. It's not bad that this is so, but the natural effect of this is that things will be more slanted one way or the other.

There are no sorcerer-queens. This is alright. Maybe in Arm2.

Jihaens and Lirathans are alright. The issue is not that they're split, it's how they're split. Jihaens do the fighting and Legions-leading, and Lirathans do a lot of peaceful activities. I honestly think if it were split the opposite way, it would be seen as an obvious attempt to do away with the RL gender roles. And splitting it by sex ensures the orders will be of roughly equal size. That's not to say their activities don't cross and overlap though.

A feminine breastplate is fine, because it would be designed with a female's torso in mind. A feminine pair of shoes... not so fine. Guys wore shoes we now consider "feminine" at some point in the lovely history of our planet (search for a picture of Louis XIV on Google if you don't believe me... specifically, "Portrait of Louis XIV", 1701), and it's totally possible for a guy to wear, say, high-heeled shoes in Zalanthas.

[Jdr]

Yeah, back then high-heels on guys was hot because it was all about the thighs, or something. Ever watched The Tudors?

[Thunkkin]

The difficulty is that gender (if you buy into Joan Scott's influential article on gender as a category of analysis, which I mostly do) is one of the primary ways, if not the primary way, that humans on earth articulate power relationships.  I think it's really difficult for players to get past this because we live and breath cultures that articulate this power in uncounted ways that we usually never even notice.  Hundreds if not thousands of times per day.

Zalanthan society, in many ways, feels more like a society in a science fiction novel than one in a fantasy novel.  While there are plenty of exceptions, the norm in the fantasy genre is for the world to be a re-imagining of myths and folktales from our past.  In these, the basic building blocks of humans (and any other fantasy races) basically stay the same as our own.  Yes, there are noted authors that branch out from this.  Consider, however, the founders of the modern fantasy genre.  Tolkien and Lewis.  I love them both.  But the cultures in their worlds do not operate radically differently from our own.  In Tolkien's world, gender, race, class, and religion (how characters morally identify themselves) work exactly the way that they do on earth.  Same goes for Lewis and the same goes, in general, for most fantasy.  Whether I'm reading George R. R. Martin or L.E. Modesitt, the basic rules of human interaction apply.  Even when a fantasy author portrays a fantasy world that differs radically from our own in certain behaviors, the fundamentals of the way that we articulate power and difference still apply.  What usually makes fantasy worlds different from our own, however, is magic and the "what if's" of the writing process are often based on this.  "What if there was magic that offered amazing power at a terrible price?"

Science fiction often asks these questions, too.  But from the beginning, writers like Isaac Asimov were asking "what ifs" that fundamentally challenged what it means to be human and how humans view the world.  Robots are a staple of classic science fiction because, on the one hand, they represent technological progress and possibilities and on the other hand, they're frickin' cool and shoot laser beams.  But robots are also a staple of the genre because they allow the authors to explore basic questions about what it means to be a human.  I'm sure such fantasy books exist, but I have never, ever read a fantasy book in which the author used dwarves or elves or orcs to challenge in a fundamental way what it means to be human.  I do think this is one of the reasons that urban fantasy is so popular right now.  The glut of vampire stories since Anne Rice (and probably earlier, but I don't follow the genre too closely) are able to present simultaneously a mythical story with heroes who are sexy/badass by nature but who also allow the author to dissect the meaning of being human in the same way that, say, the robots in Bladerunner do.  I'm sure people will respond with other fantasy stories that do this, but it isn't a classic building block of the genre the way it is in science fiction.  Elves are usually mythical stereotypes for lazy authors, not a means of destabilizing the reader's view of human nature.

So, why does Zalanthan society feel like science fiction to me?  Because it takes one of the basic human identity categories and wipes it away.  Race, gender, and class are fundamental (though differing) categories that earth-humans use to understand themselves and the world around them.  The major "what if" of Zalanthan culture is "what if gender wasn't a way of articulating power?"  In compensation, Zalanthan society places HUUUUUGE emphasis on race and class and completely conflates them. 

It's a beautiful thought experiment ... and it's also really, really, really hard for humans to successfully imagine and play out because it jettisons one of the basic building blocks of all human culture.  It's great, but very difficult.  Even the coders/builders seem to have had a difficult time thinking around the issue (the topic of clothing being one instance).

I'll also say that these science-fictiony "what ifs" are one of the reasons I love this game world.  "What if sentient cultures had to evolve in a world stripped of basic resources?"  That's a fantastic science fiction premise and the social/cultural result in the game makes the world deeply satisfying.  I also believe that some of the deep divides in the player base result from those that prefer traditional fantasy what-ifs butting heads with those that prefer traditional science-fiction what-ifs.  (I'm not a scholar of literature, so I'm sure I could be roundly criticized for how I'm describing these two genres).

[Gimfalisette]

I also believe that some of the deep divides in the player base result from those that prefer traditional fantasy what-ifs butting heads with those that prefer traditional science-fiction what-ifs.

Interesting.

[MarshallDFX]

I also believe that some of the deep divides in the player base result from those that prefer traditional fantasy what-ifs butting heads with those that prefer traditional science-fiction what-ifs.

Interesting.

Eh? 

[LittleOwl]

Yeah, back then high-heels on guys was hot because it was all about the thighs, or something. Ever watched The Tudors?

The calves. Legs on a man were very important to show off in various cultures and fashion eras.

I think tights, stockings, corsets, and heels would and should be acceptable for a variety of men in Zalanthas. We have male whores who would want to show off their goods as readily as the women in their low-cut tops and side-slit skirts. Not to mention nobles and templars.

As far as gender roles. I think that current divisions in the Tuluki Templarate have more to do with the moons then gender. Without going into IC, they are what they are and divided for particular reasons. In my opinion, Jihae represents war in its blood-red field and Lirathu represents a shield in that she is big, circular and silver - as impenetrable as metal. So to me, I can understand why one does one thing and the other does their thing. Gender doesn't have much to do with it.

Why do I keep hearing male PCs, not a lot mind but a few recently, mentioning how they hope they have a son or all their children be sons? That to me is not Zalanthas.

When I hear 'ew' IG in terms of a male PC being with another male PC, a little part of me dies. When I hear female PCs saying they cannot exist without a male PC to protect them, a little piece of me cries. I hate hearing derogatory terms said IG about homosexuality just as much as I hate hearing a male PC called a 'woman' or a 'pussy' because he lost a fight, won't fight, or whatever else.

[Decameron]

Eww. Who cares, girls are gross. They have cooties and carry disease. Remember: Statisically speaking the dirtiest, most germ ridden place on the face of Zalanthas is within the average female's mouth. Stop being pussies.

What is this thread about, again?

[jhunter]

I absolutely detest the fact that the Tuluki templarate is separated by genders. I would rather there be males or females in either order.

[My 2 sids]

Factor in this:

The average gestational length for humans is 40 weeks at 7 days a week. This equates to about nine months real time. To translate that into Armageddon time it would most likely be around five real-life weeks (approximately a little less than one game-year since there are 3 months in a game-year) with one month being slightly longer than a traditional trimester. Also, you might consider a longer gestational period if your character is a non-human, since both dwarves and elves have longer life spans than humans with slower development. That might also reflect back into the pregnancy as well.




Unless you all are advocating we all play muls or males giving birth -- there _will_ be some gender differences.  It takes time and energy to birth and if you all want to continue with this "one night stand is the norm"...   well, who gets stuck with the kid then?   

[Dar]

Honestly, this whole issue is funny.

The main reason why there is such a rule in Armageddon, is to avoid conflicts based on IRL prejudicies (skin color, gender, religion). That is it's one and 'only' purpose. All those finer details, chivalry, manliness, feminine, etc are all "details" that simply do 'not' need to be picked on. If a person wants to feel chivalrous and decides to protect the females ... then take it as your character would. Some Females would find it impressive and swoon, some females would find it idiotic, and some females would calculate it that this is the guy's method of getting laid. The point is ... that it's irrelevent. Much like the raping issue, one of it's main reason for the rule's existence is to avoid certain serious issues of the IRL.

If you play a woman, and you see a male who clearly shows he thinks of females as weak ... then pummel him into a bloody pulp or ... ignore him. I do not think it's worth correcting the issue via an OOC medium, for overral ... the whole "reason" for the gender equality role is in essence ... OOC.

[musashi]

I agree with your overall point, ibusoe, though I must admit I'm not sure exactly what you're trying to accomplish. Is this related to your harshness thread somehow?

Probably related to the Male-Female thread. Lots of people say that they don't play the other gender because they don't think they could roleplay it, even though by one of the core rules of the game, men and women are exactly the same. You shouldn't have trouble roleplaying someone of a certain sex compared to the other sex, because in Zalanthas, sex has nothing to do with anything besides sex.

I read a lot of those "I don't trust myself to RP the other sex" comments to mean "Sure, men and women are equal in Zalanthas, but they're not really equal." I refrained from commenting as such in that thread.

I disagree.

I don't think equal means identical, so when someone says a role is too different I don't assume they mean unequal. Check it out ... you can prove it with math.

1+4=5
3+2=5

equal. But different.

[Yam]

A culture can have feminine and masculine traits that do not correlate specifically to gender.


Feminine and masculine are words we use in our language to describe what we see in other cultures. They're charged by gender only from our conceptions. In Zalanthas, the equivalents likely have no such connotations.


A feminine male is still a male, but he acts in a feminine manner. A masculine male is a female, but she acts in a masculine way to our culture. They're just easy descriptors for cultural translation.


Chivalry may well exist, but it would likely be distributed to those in weak positions - whether male or female. Unless, of course, the chivalrous one has a specific taste for crotch-bits. That may introduce its own prejudice.

[Ampere]

Your mom.

[hyzhenhok]

I agree with your overall point, ibusoe, though I must admit I'm not sure exactly what you're trying to accomplish. Is this related to your harshness thread somehow?

Probably related to the Male-Female thread. Lots of people say that they don't play the other gender because they don't think they could roleplay it, even though by one of the core rules of the game, men and women are exactly the same. You shouldn't have trouble roleplaying someone of a certain sex compared to the other sex, because in Zalanthas, sex has nothing to do with anything besides sex.

I read a lot of those "I don't trust myself to RP the other sex" comments to mean "Sure, men and women are equal in Zalanthas, but they're not really equal." I refrained from commenting as such in that thread.

I disagree.

I don't think equal means identical, so when someone says a role is too different I don't assume they mean unequal. Check it out ... you can prove it with math.

1+4=5
3+2=5

equal. But different.

You wrote 5 = 5 twice.

[ibusoe]

I object to this.  While your argument is logically sound, it goes against the docs.  I think this is one of those rare instances where it's better to not be logically, internally consistent and to just say "hey, it's just a game, a fantasy game, females can hunt and fight while pregnant."

Factor in this:

The average gestational length for humans is 40 weeks at 7 days a week. This equates to about nine months real time. To translate that into Armageddon time it would most likely be around five real-life weeks (approximately a little less than one game-year since there are 3 months in a game-year) with one month being slightly longer than a traditional trimester. Also, you might consider a longer gestational period if your character is a non-human, since both dwarves and elves have longer life spans than humans with slower development. That might also reflect back into the pregnancy as well.




Unless you all are advocating we all play muls or males giving birth -- there _will_ be some gender differences.  It takes time and energy to birth and if you all want to continue with this "one night stand is the norm"...   well, who gets stuck with the kid then?   

[ibusoe]

Wow, that was one of the most articulate posts I've ever seen on the GDB.

I think you're very insightful.  To my real-life friends, I've often described Zalanthas as a science-fiction game. 

I agree with you that most of the GDB conflicts I've had over the years have probably been with people who would rather be playing a post-apocalyptic version of Lord of The Rings rather than a low-technology version of dune.

Zalanthan society, in many ways, feels more like a society in a science fiction novel than one in a fantasy novel. 

[ibusoe]

Thank you.

At first the posts were meant to be related.  But in practice, I'll have to admit that any relationship is a stretch of the imagination.

The only real connection that I can honestly bring up is a general complaint that women (in game) should be left to solve their own conflicts, and that if the playerbase had more concerns of their own there would be less of the unrealistic sort of chivalry that I brought up. 

So really, it's probably better to look at this topic as a stand-alone thread.

I agree with your overall point, ibusoe, though I must admit I'm not sure exactly what you're trying to accomplish. Is this related to your harshness thread somehow?

[My 2 sids]

I object to this.  While your argument is logically sound, it goes against the docs.  I think this is one of those rare instances where it's better to not be logically, internally consistent and to just say "hey, it's just a game, a fantasy game, females can hunt and fight while pregnant."

You're right, it's a game.  But, consider this:  I'm pretty sure every player here has a gender.   Maybe what you're seeing in game isn't bias so much as the player having fun.   

Just like Dar said:  let it be an IC reaction.

[spicemustflow]

I object to this.  While your argument is logically sound, it goes against the docs.  I think this is one of those rare instances where it's better to not be logically, internally consistent and to just say "hey, it's just a game, a fantasy game, females can hunt and fight while pregnant."

That's the point, it's a game designed for equal enjoyment of players of both sex. That's all there needs to be said, any "IC" justification and theses about male/female anatomy and psychology of the game world fall flat. Because they are.