Gender Roles on Zalanthas -- RP nuances

[ibusoe]

Males and Female humanoids are statistically equal in terms of size, strength, game stats, social importance and social roles.

Men and Women are the same in everything except reproduction.  In most of the ways that Earth Men and Earth Women are different, Zalanthans are the same.

It would not be that much of an oversimplification to state that there is only one gender on Zalanthas. 

There is no expectation that men will be manly.  There is no expectation that women will be feminine.


Part of the fallout of this is that there is no concept of "emasculation" in Zalanthas.  I've seen people RP this incorrectly.

Statistically, 50% of the time that any warrior looses a sparring match it will be to a female opponent.

Fifty percent of domestic servants (or "housewives") are male.  Warcraft is not seen as a "manlier" field than sewing, for example.



Another subtle point is chivalry and protecting women.
It wouldn't occur to someone that a female would require protection from a male.
All else being equal, a female victim would have a 50% chance of beating a male aggressor if she stands up for herself.

While our playerbase doesn't necessarily support these statistics, people who rp to the contrary are guilty of not taking the actions of NPC into account, for which I think there's a related thread somewhere.

[brytta.leofa]

Well, we do have masculine shoes.

[Gimfalisette]

Well, we do have masculine shoes.

And feminine, IIRC. It would probably be better not to have items desced in that manner in the game.

I agree with your overall point, ibusoe, though I must admit I'm not sure exactly what you're trying to accomplish. Is this related to your harshness thread somehow?

[hyzhenhok]

I agree with your overall point, ibusoe, though I must admit I'm not sure exactly what you're trying to accomplish. Is this related to your harshness thread somehow?

Probably related to the Male-Female thread. Lots of people say that they don't play the other gender because they don't think they could roleplay it, even though by one of the core rules of the game, men and women are exactly the same. You shouldn't have trouble roleplaying someone of a certain sex compared to the other sex, because in Zalanthas, sex has nothing to do with anything besides sex.

I read a lot of those "I don't trust myself to RP the other sex" comments to mean "Sure, men and women are equal in Zalanthas, but they're not really equal." I refrained from commenting as such in that thread.

[Jdr]

I dream for the day when I can be a female Jihaean. Damn you, Tuluki bigotry!

[Gimfalisette]

I dream for the day when I can be a female Jihaean. Damn you, Tuluki bigotry!

There are many organizations in the Known World where you can or cannot have a particular position based on gender. AFAIK, none of those positions are based on the idea that somehow one gender or the other is more suited to that role; it is just done that way because it's tradition and it's always been done that way. Therefore it is not actually bigotry or sexism.

[FantasyWriter]

So if I play a guy who wears a red silk bodice, a quirri-tail thong, and a pair of red heels, no on will pick on me?

[Gimfalisette]

So if I play a guy who wears a red silk bodice, a quirri-tail thong, and a pair of red heels, no on will pick on me?

Hit on you yes, pick on you no. Why would they pick on you? There's no concept of that behavior being un-male in Zalanthas, nor is there any homophobia.

[staggerlee]

So if I play a guy who wears a red silk bodice, a quirri-tail thong, and a pair of red heels, no on will pick on me?

Hit on you yes, pick on you no. Why would they pick on you? There's no concept of that behavior being un-male in Zalanthas, nor is there any homophobia.

They might pick on you for having clothes that aren't fashionable or don't fit right.
But I agree with gimf, according to the documentation it would not be as a result of any kind of Zalanthan homophobia or sense that it was unmanly.

[MarshallDFX]

I dream for the day when I can be a female Jihaean. Damn you, Tuluki bigotry!

There are many organizations in the Known World where you can or cannot have a particular position based on gender. AFAIK, none of those positions are based on the idea that somehow one gender or the other is more suited to that role; it is just done that way because it's tradition and it's always been done that way. Therefore it is not actually bigotry or sexism.

Wait a minute.  If things are tradition and always been done that way, it's not bigotry or sexism?  I detect some moral waywardness.

[FantasyWriter]

Also, he would be the hulking sleek-tressed man.

[flurry]

I agree with the overall point of the original post. It's worth being reminded of, from time to time.

Men and Women are the same in everything except reproduction.

Strictly speaking, this isn't literally true, I don't think. For instance, you can tell a male voice from a female voice.

But culturally, physically, and mentally neither is advantaged over the other.

Well, we do have masculine shoes.

And feminine, IIRC. It would probably be better not to have items desced in that manner in the game.

Yeah, there is clothing that is described as masculine or feminine. There are also items described as being designed to fit a female shape (maybe likewise for male?).

I don't think this is a bad thing. It's not like males and females of the playable races are supposed to be physically indistinguishable. To me it makes sense that there would be fashion differences, simply because male and female bodies have different shapes, even in Zalanthas.

The connotations of "masculine" and "feminine" may be problematic, though. I don't know.

[a strange shadow]

Geez, this topic has been done to death.

Be as masculine or feminine as you like as is appropriate for your concept and gender. There's nothing wrong with being girly or masculine as long as it's realistic for your concept and class, you don't have to go out on a freaking black and white limb just to try and make gender equality sound ridiculous.  Girls still have tits and guys still have dicks, last I checked, therefore yes, a corset would be pointless and ridiculous on a guy. Physical differences simply don't translate to cultural expectations. Is that so hard to grok?

[FantasyWriter]

I dream for the day when I can be a female Jihaean. Damn you, Tuluki bigotry!

There are many organizations in the Known World where you can or cannot have a particular position based on gender. AFAIK, none of those positions are based on the idea that somehow one gender or the other is more suited to that role; it is just done that way because it's tradition and it's always been done that way. Therefore it is not actually bigotry or sexism.

Wait a minute.  If things are tradition and always been done that way, it's not bigotry or sexism?  I detect some moral waywardness.

The Northern Templarate, I can see since they are, at least in my understanding celibate.

Edit: nevermind, that just doesn't work either, since homosexuality is viewed no different than heterosexuality except in the way of breeding.

They do it that way because Muk said to.... end of story.

I would be curious to know the other groups that are segregated by sex, if its not IC secret info.

[Gimfalisette]

The connotations of "masculine" and "feminine" may be problematic, though. I don't know.

This is all I meant. The clothing that is designed, for example, to create cleavage on the female form--that's fine and make sense. But an item being described as masculine simply because the shape of it is blocky, or as feminine because the shape of it is softer, that seems like going where we don't need to go.

Wait a minute.  If things are tradition and always been done that way, it's not bigotry or sexism?  I detect some moral waywardness.

Do you know why Muk decided that Lirathans would all be female and Jihaens would all be male? I don't. I'm comfortable assuming that, because the game documentation says there is no sexism in Zalanthas, that Muk made this choice for some other reason. Since there were other orders of the Tuluki templarate as well, and I don't know of anything that says those were gender-segregated, then I feel comfortable with believing that Muk just perhaps kept the two orders he liked best, and they happened to be gender-segregated. Guess what, Muk could change his mind this very moment and make Jihaens the kind that do Lirathan stuff, and Lirathans the kind that do Jihaen stuff, if he wanted to. It has nothing to do with their gender.

Kuracis address female family members as "-di" and males as "-da." Sexism? No.

Other organizations may give the top spot traditionally to a male or female. Sexism? No. Just the way it's always been done.

a corset would be pointless and ridiculous on a guy.

Technically, corsets are for waist-cinching, and there are plenty of men IRL who wear them for that purpose. They're really not gender-specific at all and many types don't cover the bust, anyways.

[a strange shadow]

Gimf, you're getting into semantics here. I don't exactly forsee a Zalanthan male, noble or not, having reason to wear 'a lacy black corset'. Unless there's suddenly some trend among Allanaki noble males to have a thinner-than-usual waist (which would be entirely anti-culture; skinny people are poor or underfed people), I think my basic example still stands.

(Also, my main point was that physical differences simply don't equate to cultural differences; not the corset issue.)

[Gimfalisette]

You said it would be pointless and ridiculous, and I explained how it wasn't, which is not semantics in the least. I see no reason why a male noble couldn't want to wear a corset and do so, if a female noble might. Allanaki high fashion actually makes a point of restrictive garments, so wearing a corset seems to fit that aesthetic.

And yes, the topic in general may have been done a thousand times, but it's actually been quite a while since we had a discussion on specifics of gender play in Zalanthas. So long so that it's likely many of our new players have really not seen or participated in one.

[brytta.leofa]

Do women in Zalanthas tend to have more bodyfat (and differently distributed) than men?

Are women's and men's hips a bit differently constructed, or are they basically identical?  (If identical, are they, by our standards, "masculine" or "feminine?")

As strength is identically distributed, are Zalanthan women's muscles larger than we're used to, or are men's muscles smaller?  Or are women's muscles smaller but stronger for their size?

[Xeran Van Houten]

Gimf, you're getting into semantics here. I don't exactly forsee a Zalanthan male, noble or not, having reason to wear 'a lacy black corset'. Unless there's suddenly some trend among Allanaki noble males to have a thinner-than-usual waist (which would be entirely anti-culture; skinny people are poor or underfed people), I think my basic example still stands.

(Also, my main point was that physical differences simply don't equate to cultural differences; not the corset issue.)

Err... so because you can't think of a "valid" reason for a man to wear a corset means that there are no reasons for a man to wear one?  Something tells me that's a bit flawed.

If one's character sees a man wearing one in-game, they mght thiink it's silly for its impracticality, or because it looks funny, but unless one asks the man wearing the corset why they do so, how can one know if there is indeed a point to it?
I'd think that if anyone went through the trouble to put on a real, bone-ribbed corset, there's got to be a good reason...  but I also think the point is, you can't just assume the man is somehow trying to be less masculine/man-like just because he's got a corset on.

[FantasyWriter]

Maybe he or his lover just happen to think it looks good on him?

[Jdr]

Muk Utep: Zalanthas' first sexist? You decide.

[Gimfalisette]

Muk Utep: Zalanthas' first sexist? You decide.

There's evidence in game that he is not sexist, such as the fact that the Lirathans and Jihaens can switch precedence in the government (remember, Jihaens used to be #1).

[Jdr]

I'm just teasing, Gimf.

[Gimfalisette]

I'm just teasing, Gimf.

FINE.

I wish I could play a female Jihaen, too, but alas...it is not to be.

As to which other organizations do stuff in a gender-segregated manner, that's definitely IC info and would need to be found out by playing within those organizations.

[spicemustflow]

Yes he is sexist, he divided his servants by sex for some reason. Doesn't mean that he thinks one is better than another, he simply can tell the difference. As can the tailors tell the difference between a male and a female body and therefore make feminine armor with enough space for tits. What's the problem there again? An elf wouldn't wear something made to be worn by a dwarf.