A Better Allanaki Social Chart

[Clearsighted]

I am pretty sure that when you become a Byn Runner, you actually drop down a social notch from wherever you were before.

[LauraMars]

Wouldn't a concubine's (or whatever comparable role you choose to think of) social status depend largely on the noble/templar to whom she/he is attached?  The concubine of a junior Fale noble will have much less rank than the concubine of a (dare I say) Red Robe templar.  And the same goes for aides as well, though house servants usually have their own system of social ranking within their houses, unlike concubines, who are generally outside the bounds of servant social strata and depend solely on their patron for rank.  

Politics 101, natch, but it does effect things like charts.  Not that this isn't a good chart.  I like it quite a lot, for a chart.  Very nice, straight lines.  But as has been so eloquently discussed here, and elsewhere, things aren't always cut and dried.

[Gimfalisette]

Wouldn't a concubine's (or whatever comparable role you choose to think of) social status depend largely on the noble/templar to whom she/he is attached?  The concubine of a junior Fale noble will have much less rank than the concubine of a (dare I say) Red Robe templar.  And the same goes for aides as well, though house servants usually have their own system of social ranking within their houses, unlike concubines, who are generally outside the bounds of servant social strata and depend solely on their patron for rank.  

Politics 101, natch, but it does effect things like charts.  Not that this isn't a good chart.  I like it quite a lot, for a chart.  Very nice, straight lines.  But as has been so eloquently discussed here, and elsewhere, things aren't always cut and dried.

I don't really know. I kept concubines where they are on the original chart and didn't put them in there for templars as well, even though templars can have concubines. However, in the case of templars having concubines or any other kind of personal servant (aide) who is not within the command line of the AoD, then I think they would be pretty much equivalent to the concubines / aides / etc. of noble houses. Templars, after all, are still nobles. The concubine of a red robe is probably going to get a boost of status as compared to the concubine of a blue robe or the concubine of a non-senior noble, but their basic position on the chart doesn't change. Similarly, the senior aide of a red robe is gonna be actually status-ranked higher than the senior aide of a blue robe or non-senior noble, but when it all comes down to it they are in the same grouping. (And there are so few PCs in any of these higher positions at any given time that they really rarely actually have someone in direct comparison like that.)

[Twilight]

So, where would a bastard child of Tektolnes be?  Would it be above the other black robes, cause, uh, you know you are his kid, or do you really want to be below the other black robes, cause, uh, he's been known to off family if they are important?

Enquiring minds want to know!

[jcljules]

So, where would a bastard child of Tektolnes be?  Would it be above the other black robes, cause, uh, you know you are his kid, or do you really want to be below the other black robes, cause, uh, he's been known to off family if they are important?

Enquiring minds want to know!

Wrote Tektolnes Senior Templar (and bastard child) Cohran, "His Gloriousness's recent attempt to purify the minds of his people by banning the trade of the spice will certainly have grave ramifications on the well-being of the average man."

[Ocotillo]

One of my lasting ambitions is to meet Cohran before the game ends.

[Spoon]

Add dwaves to the bottom rung, as they're good for nothing but hard labour and hitting things. Dwarf racism in game rarely goes beyond "Hur hur, you short". Also, add half-giants on there too, as they're along the same lines from a human perspective.

This will probably spark a debate along the lines of elves and half-elves being lower on the scale, but on this table it makes more sense to lump them all together as non-humans and mutants.

[My 2 sids]

Now see, I don't think it portrays the gap between nobility and commoner nearly as much as it should.   ALL status comes from the nobility and is thus determined by one's proximity to the nobility.

Byn is like Kleenex -- a brand name for a sid-a-dozen mercenary.   Outside of perhaps the top officers, no one is going to know their name let alone offer any sort of respect above that of any other commoner.

I think the milta would be slightly higher (as a whole) because once they're actually a full-fledged soldier they'd be under a templar's unit.

There should be a large gap between the senior leaders of a merchant house and anyone else associated with the GMH -- specifically because working for a nobility house would be considered (by the nobility themselves) a far greater honor than working for a commoner house (no matter how rich and powerful)

Concubines and personal slaves would be a set with the ability to fluctuate greatly along the chart -- their status goes hand in hand with the owner.  

[Fathi]

Add dwaves to the bottom rung, as they're good for nothing but hard labour and hitting things. Dwarf racism in game rarely goes beyond "Hur hur, you short". Also, add half-giants on there too, as they're along the same lines from a human perspective.

This will probably spark a debate along the lines of elves and half-elves being lower on the scale, but on this table it makes more sense to lump them all together as non-humans and mutants.

Well, there is some evidence that dwarves aren't considered as socially unimportant than elves and half-elves because dwarves can join a lot of clans that elves and half-elves can't.

[Spoon]

Maybe that's part of the whole idea that dwarves are descended from a slave race, good for little but hunting and fighting. I think that's in the docs somewhere...

Infact, I'm not actually sure why dwarves are allowed to join certain noble houses, as the docs state that other races often find dwarves intolerable because of their single mindedness.

[FantasyWriter]

Maybe that's part of the whole idea that dwarves are descended from a slave race, good for little but hunting and fighting. I think that's in the docs somewhere...

Infact, I'm not actually sure why dwarves are allowed to join certain noble houses, as the docs state that other races often find dwarves intolerable because of their single mindedness.

When that single mindedness works in a direction that is favourable to you, it can be quite rewarding.

Also, Dwarves may be lower than humans, but they are also above elves, half-elves, half giants, magickers, rinthers, Undertulukis, and in some situations, tribals.

[brytta.leofa]

When that single mindedness works in a direction that is favourable to you, it can be quite rewarding.

Remember that dwarves actually do make quite good slaves.

[ibusoe]

Maybe that's part of the whole idea that dwarves are descended from a slave race, good for little but hunting and fighting. I think that's in the docs somewhere...

Infact, I'm not actually sure why dwarves are allowed to join certain noble houses, as the docs state that other races often find dwarves intolerable because of their single mindedness.

Yeah.  Actually, a lot of people who play dwarves do kind of a poor job.  They play their characters as short, buff, gruff, surly drunken dudes (i.e. Scottsmen) like Lord of the Rings instead of playing them the way the docs state (or imply) which is short, focused, narrow-minded, inquisitive, annoying, child-like Type-A personalities.

Properly role-played, a dwarf would be annoying as shit.

[FuSoYa]

instead of playing them the way the docs state (or imply) which is short, focused, narrow-minded, inquisitive, annoying, child-like Type-A personalities.

Properly role-played, a dwarf would be annoying as shit.

I'm not picking nits but I'm curious as I've ALWAYS been interested in playing a dwarf but never though I would do a good job.

I can understand how some might find their traits annoying but I do not think necessarily every dwarf would be annoying.  That being said I'm not a fan of absolutes of any type.  Also, what do you think is 'child-like' about their personality?

Brandon

[ibusoe]

I can understand how some might find their traits annoying but I do not think necessarily every dwarf would be annoying.  That being said I'm not a fan of absolutes of any type.  Also, what do you think is 'child-like' about their personality?

Sure, you have a point.

Why childlike?  Well, they're singular in the way that children are about things like sugar.  And persistent.  Maybe not the best analogy?

[FuSoYa]

I can understand how some might find their traits annoying but I do not think necessarily every dwarf would be annoying.  That being said I'm not a fan of absolutes of any type.  Also, what do you think is 'child-like' about their personality?

Sure, you have a point.

Why childlike?  Well, they're singular in the way that children are about things like sugar.  And persistent.  Maybe not the best analogy?

Yes, that was what I was gathering from what you meant but I think there would be a big difference in child-like versus a dwarves particular narrow-minded, focus on something.

For instance a child might throw a tantrum if he didn't get his sugar and while a dwarf might do the same from what I've garnered he might also just turn his focus to a slightly different direction in his attempts to continue forward with his goal.

Just musing... a dwarf has always interested me but I just do not think I would do the character justice so I've yet to really try.

Brandon

[Gargath]

I would put *gemmers somewhere between tier 1 and 2 there only because they are an upper echelon noble house employee. To be safe, I would still toss them on tier 1. Maybe go with tier 2 for the higher ranked ones.

I think the Byn are also ranked too high.

Just my 2 'sids.  

*Oash gemmers

[ibusoe]

Oh yeah, one minor correction -- Rinthers probably shouldn't be on the same tier as elves.

There are many sorts of Rinthers, ranging from Rinthers who serve in the Legion to Rinthers who supply raw obsidian to House Kadius to Rinthers who have never held an honest job in their whole life. 

Lots of junior players have trouble distinguishing the accent from the geographic area from the lifestyle.

If you want to put someone on par with elves, it's probably better to list "beggars" or "grebbers" or "unemployed spiceheads"

[brytta.leofa]

Rinthers who serve in the Legion

Man, jest one more sign that there's no accountin' fer northies.

[Gimfalisette]

Oh yeah, one minor correction -- Rinthers probably shouldn't be on the same tier as elves.

There are many sorts of Rinthers, ranging from Rinthers who serve in the Legion to Rinthers who supply raw obsidian to House Kadius to Rinthers who have never held an honest job in their whole life. 

Lots of junior players have trouble distinguishing the accent from the geographic area from the lifestyle.

If you want to put someone on par with elves, it's probably better to list "beggars" or "grebbers" or "unemployed spiceheads"

None of that matters to social status. Functionally, when it comes to the social niceties, those types are all on the same level. Which is to say, no one makes socially nice to them. An "honest" rinthi is still a rinthi, just like an "honest" elf is still an elf.

[Jingo]

Oh yeah, one minor correction -- Rinthers probably shouldn't be on the same tier as elves.

There are many sorts of Rinthers, ranging from Rinthers who serve in the Legion to Rinthers who supply raw obsidian to House Kadius to Rinthers who have never held an honest job in their whole life. 

Lots of junior players have trouble distinguishing the accent from the geographic area from the lifestyle.

If you want to put someone on par with elves, it's probably better to list "beggars" or "grebbers" or "unemployed spiceheads"

None of that matters to social status. Functionally, when it comes to the social niceties, those types are all on the same level. Which is to say, no one makes socially nice to them. An "honest" rinthi is still a rinthi, just like an "honest" elf is still an elf.

This may be the ideal but the ideal almost never matches reality. Or in other words, most people may hold a black/white viewpoint. But socio-economic realities will always come first.

I think it would be more realistic if rinthis were commonly employed for cheap labor and commonly misidentified as non-rinthi'.

[KankWhisperer]

Maybe that's part of the whole idea that dwarves are descended from a slave race, good for little but hunting and fighting. I think that's in the docs somewhere...

Infact, I'm not actually sure why dwarves are allowed to join certain noble houses, as the docs state that other races often find dwarves intolerable because of their single mindedness.

Yeah.  Actually, a lot of people who play dwarves do kind of a poor job.  They play their characters as short, buff, gruff, surly drunken dudes (i.e. Scottsmen) like Lord of the Rings instead of playing them the way the docs state (or imply) which is short, focused, narrow-minded, inquisitive, annoying, child-like Type-A personalities.

Properly role-played, a dwarf would be annoying as shit.

Let's see: short, buff, gruff, surly, drunken...

Short: DOCS
Buff: DOCS
Gruff/Surly: Hard to say. If you are not helping them then they might be surly/gruff because you are a hindrance and not a help.
Drunken: Hard to say. The dwarf focus is a very hard thing to role play. Does the dwarf actually have no preferences other than his focus?
If so a dwarf would just ignore all social conventions unless they directly impacted his focus. If dwarves had no vices or faults then they would just be machines with no personality. I see it as dwarves have other likes/dislikes but they only arise when they can't work directly on their focus at that moment. I also see no reference to them being childlike or more inquisitive than anyone else. If this was not so, I think they would never even bother to reproduce enough to continue the race.

They have just a narrower view of the world, but it can expand if necessary, for example if their current plan is not working and they decide to try something else to get to the same end. They examine the whole picture then select a narrower path once again and get to work.

[Synthesis]

Yeah.  Actually, a lot of people who play dwarves do kind of a poor job.  They play their characters as short, buff, gruff, surly drunken dudes (i.e. Scottsmen) like Lord of the Rings instead of playing them the way the docs state (or imply) which is short, focused, narrow-minded, inquisitive, annoying, child-like Type-A personalities.

Properly role-played, a dwarf would be annoying as shit.

Half-giants are the ones who are inquisitive, not dwarves.  Dwarves don't give a rat's ass about anything that doesn't immediately pertain to their focus, although they might consider it if they thought about it long enough and decided it was germane to their one overriding interest.  Further, I'm not sure you can categorize dwarves in general as being "Type A" personalities.  According to the almighty Wikipedia:

"Type A individuals can be described as impatient, time-conscious, concerned about their status, highly competitive, ambitious, business-like, aggressive, having difficulty relaxing; and are sometimes disliked by individuals with Type B personalties for the way that they're always rushing.[1] They are often high-achieving workaholics who multi-task, drive themselves with deadlines, and are unhappy about delays."

I don't think any of these characteristics are necessarily part of the dwarven psyche.  Yes, they want to get something done, but that doesn't mean they're impatient about it, or that they're competitive, ambitious, multi-tasking, etc.  It's possible that some are, but I suspect that most dwarves aren't terribly concerned with the aspect of time, because they're much more interested in getting it done right than in just getting it done.  It's rather difficult to think deeply and intensely about something while simultaneously feeling rushed and impatient.  Furthermore, since the life expectancy of dwarves is nearly double that of humans, it doesn't seem like they'd have any sort of biological imperative to be rushed, impatient, or otherwise stressed out. 

I think the average dwarf would actually be damnably frustrating to work with for reasons exactly opposite of Type A personality traits:  they would be perceived as being plodding and overly deliberate.  Perhaps they'd even be perceived as being lazy, since they need to spend an awful lot of time just thinking, and they probably wouldn't attend to menial tasks that need to get done.  "Sweep out the crafting hall? Bah...I need to figure out how to carve that clasp just right so it lies smoothly under the neckline of the dress without making an obvious bump...stone just isn't cutting it...too bulky...bone, maybe...but what kind of bone...something small, delicate...but it has to be durable...you know, I've heard there are some tiny bones inside ears...hmm...maybe halfling ear-bones would do the trick...how do I get some halfling ear-bones? Sweeping? Later...halfling ear-bones...alright, the hunters won't do it because they're not allowed into the Grey because of rules the Agent put in place...maybe I could get the Agent to change the rules...maybe I should just get her out of the way and the next guy they put in charge won't have any stupid rules about the Grey...I really need these halfling ear-bones...I'm convinced nothing else is going to cut it."  Meanwhile, the sweeping's been done by someone else, and the dwarf is still sitting in a now-darkened corner of the hall, well past working hours, having not accomplished much of anything other than some really deep thinking.  I don't think dwarves would be particularly prone to outburst of rage, either, since such things are typically done without thinking, and dwarves tend to plan everything meticulously, because otherwise something could go wrong and they wouldn't be able to get it done.  For example, if a dwarf orders a tool he needs, but the merchant is weeks behind on the order, I don't think the dwarf would fly off the handle and start making threats and accusations, because he'd have to stop and think about it.  After an hour or so of stewing it over at the bar, he might return to the merchant with a steadily seething anger and a threat, but it's unlikely he would instantly grab the merchant by the lapel and hold a knife to his throat for failing to meet the deadline...because, "what happens if the merchant's bodyguard intervenes and injures me?  What if I slip and accidentally kill the merchant...now I can't get the right tool because he's the only one I know who can make it properly, and then the militia will be after me and there's no way I can get this thing carved while sitting in the dungeons...and if I anger this merchant too much, he might just refuse to deal with me anymore, and what if I break the tool and I need another one?"

At any rate, neither half-giants nor dwarves are child-like in any meaningful way.  In fact, the roleplaying docs go out of their way to reinforce the idea that half-giants are NOT child-like.

[Barsook]

Sorry for bumping this, but I have three questions:

- I was told that Templars have ranks along with their robe colors.  If this is true, can we have a updated chart?
- I think the three playable Noble Houses have different rank names for their aides, can that be in the footnotes for the updated chart?
- Can the chart be on the site, so it can accessed easier?

[wizturbo]

Sorry for bumping this, but I have three questions:

- I was told that Templars have ranks along with their robe colors.  If this is true, can we have a updated chart?
- I think the three playable Noble Houses have different rank names for their aides, can that be in the footnotes for the updated chart?
- Can the chart be on the site, so it can accessed easier?

I think some of these ranks are deliberately not well known.  Now, that isn't to say an OOC social chart couldn't be posted for characters that have a good reason to know these things, but I can see where it might be a controversial issue as Armageddon isn't well known for sharing IC stuff like that, even if it might be handy.