A Better Allanaki Social Chart

[Gimfalisette]

The current Allanaki social chart: http://www.armageddon.org/general/ranktable.html has significant errors and isn't detailed enough. My opinion, based on experience, is below. Use at your own risk, however, this is how I play and what makes sense to me based on my experience, and it works.

Templarate	|	Nobility	|	Merchant House	|	Other Commoners
Abandon hope all ye who enter here.	|
Black Robes	|
	|	Senator, Upper House Senator, Middle House Senator, Lower House	|
Red Robes	|	Senior Family Member, Upper House Senior Family Member, Middle House Senior Family Member, Lower House	|
Blue Robe	|	Family Member, Upper House Family Member, Middle House Family Member, Lower House	|	House Head	|
Militia Captain	|	Bastard Noble	|	Very Senior Merchant	|	The Top Bynner (Commander?)
Militia Lieutenant	|	Senior Aide, Guard Captain *, Concubine *	|	Senior Merchant	|	Byn Lieutenant
Militia Sergeant	|	Aide	|	Guard Captain / Sergeant / Top Hunter	|
Militia Corporal	|	Junior Aide, Senior Guard *	|	Merchant	|	Byn Sergeant, Guild Leader
Militia Private	|	House Guard *, Oash Rank & File Gemmer	|	Junior Merchant	|	Templarate-Connected Gemmer
Slave of the Templarate, Militia Recruit	|	House Servant, Recruit	|	Guard, Employee, Hunter	|	Byn Trooper
	|	House Slave	|	Recruit	|	Byn Runner, Other Common Citizen
	|		|		|	Rinthis, Elves, Breeds, Northerners, Etc.

* Could be a slave or free, rank is the same either way

[FuSoYa]

Thank you Gimf. 

Brandon

[Gimfalisette]

Also I should note that some parts of this chart are about social deference, and some parts are simply about power. Obviously no one is being especially social deferent to the leader of the Guild or a Byn Sergeant, however, that PC is going to have some power. Primarily this distinction applies to the "other commoners" column; other commoners don't get made nice to socially, much, but they can often have power.

Thank you Gimf. 

You're welcome

[Gimfalisette]

I'm also going to say here, though it's been said before (and probably better, by marko and others):

The most common mistake that PCs make in politics is to think themselves higher than they really are. This happens to PCs at all levels, especially when they are new: The new blue robe, the new noble, the new noble house recruit, the new family merchant, the new militia recruit, etc. Everyone wants to get in there and be a mover and shaker, but the truth is that if you try to move and shake too soon, you'll be the one who ends up hurt. If you want to last, and to amass real power (and social rank) in politics, then go slow, know the territory, make contacts and friends, and plan carefully. Basically, it's like adventuring--but in the city! Otherwise, it'll be your PC's corpse on the pile, real quick.

[Zoltan]

That looks about right to me, from my experience. I would say that by and large, Byn lieutenants and captains would be roughly in the same spot, though your average commoner would probably never, ever run into a Byn captain. I would almost think that the Byn commander would be around the same level as a merchant house head, just because he is the very top of a Known World-spanning, well-known and profitable organization.

Looking at the chart again, there's definitely some wiggle room, especially in the lower nobility ranks (due to favoritism and the like), but I think it's a -very- good go-to for your average 'Nakki's social position. Good work!

[Niamh]

It is important to keep in mind that gemmers are still filthy abominations, no matter who they work for.

[Zoltan]

It is important to keep in mind that gemmers are still filthy abominations, no matter who they work for.

Well, of course, but if they garner the favor of their employers, it can kind of put them out of reach of your average commoner's open, game-world-supported disdain. But yeah, still freaks of nature.  Just have to throw some of that 'Nakki-brand subtlety in there.

[Dar]

I personally think a Byn commander should drop down a notch. A militia Captain and the head of a Merchant House are either employers of thousands of people, or are at the head of the "Arm" of the Dragon.  While an officer of the Byn, is an officer of an organization that while might be rich, is still covered in shit. Comparing Byn to a Merchant House is like comparing Jal to Oash.

I dont think a Guild Leader should even be in the chart. Because A Guild Leader being what they are, is as influencial as they can get themselves to be.  Also the guild itself is too intermingled and unknown for any real commoner to be aware of. So for a regular commoner, a guild leader is just ... a person, untill he focuses his attention on you, and afterwards he's about one notch below Tektolnes.

Personally, in those very few influencial roles that I have. I have overral ignored the social ladder in its entirety. And just went by whom is useful and who wasnt. Who was dangerous, and who wasnt. I've often regarded Kurac as much lower house then Kadius/Salarr/Nenyak, while I was playing in Allanak.

[Ghost]

merchant = family member for gmh?

if that is the case i dont get how a junior aide (some random commoner that is hired by a junior noble, not to mention this commoner could be replaced crazy fast) is at the same level as a gmh merchant

[Gimfalisette]

It is important to keep in mind that gemmers are still filthy abominations, no matter who they work for.

Definitely. Please. Mostly I put gemmers on there because there are two common mistakes people make in their thoughts about gemmers: 1. They are the social equivalent of 'rinthis, 2. They are employees of the templarate. Neither is true.

And a note on slaves would be that they also "set apart" in a way. Your average commoner would know that a slave PC isn't available for a sexual relationship; they are slaves, and somehow different from you. They were probably bred for their role, they can't leave it, they don't own themselves, and yet they have more security and possibly regard than the typical Amos.

I would almost think that the Byn commander would be around the same level as a merchant house head, just because he is the very top of a Known World-spanning, well-known and profitable organization.

Well, I can't really agree with that. The wealth of the Byn doesn't even come close to comparing with the wealth of a GMH. Simply being at the top of a particular organization does not automatically confer equivalent status and power. And, the Byn has only also been in the north for like 80 to 100 years, or so? So it's only very recently "world-spanning."

Personally, in those very few influencial roles that I have. I have overral ignored the social ladder in its entirety. And just went by whom is useful and who wasnt. Who was dangerous, and who wasnt. I've often regarded Kurac as much lower house then Kadius/Salarr/Nenyak, while I was playing in Allanak.

I can't really support a "just ignore the social ladder" approach to politics. To me, that's basically ignoring the virtual world. Even if you (general) know on a practical level that there are only 3 noble PCs in the city and you're in good with all of them, that doesn't mean you are outside of the system as a whole.

In fact, I would really like to see people playing politics as if the virtual world was real, much more often. Profess fear that Voryek might come after you for something! Or whatever. Really, I mean it.

merchant = family member for gmh?

if that is the case i dont get how a junior aide (some random commoner that is hired by a junior noble, not to mention this commoner could be replaced crazy fast) is at the same level as a gmh merchant

A junior family member is usually a PC who has just very recently been apped into the house. There are literally hundreds of them in the family; this is the lowest it gets for them. They haven't done anything, they don't know anyone at all, and the only reason they get any consideration at all is simply because of their family connection.

Also, note that "junior aide" is not the lowest rank of employee in a noble house. Like Synthesis said on the other thread, most of the noble house employees who are running around calling themselves "aides" are actually more equivalent to the house servant level.

[Gimfalisette]

I personally think a Byn commander should drop down a notch. A militia Captain and the head of a Merchant House are either employers of thousands of people, or are at the head of the "Arm" of the Dragon.  While an officer of the Byn, is an officer of an organization that while might be rich, is still covered in shit. Comparing Byn to a Merchant House is like comparing Jal to Oash.

Not about the Byn per se, but I wanted to note that a Captain in the AoD is not the head of the AoD. There is no commoner head of the AoD, the AoD is led by blue robes who are led by red robes etc.

And a merchant house head is definitely above the Byn commander or a Captain of the AoD.

[Ender]

As a Byn enthusiast it hurts to say this, but I think the Byn officer rankings are at least one to two ranks too high.  

The Byn itself is fairly small in comparison to the other military organizations.  At last count each the northern and southern branch only have a couple hundred mercs each which makes it very large for a mercenary outfit but small in comparison to other standing armies.

More importantly the majority of the Byn's income is derived from other houses for the most part, so they are at their whim and inherently lower than them socially.  The 300 'sid training fee is a more or less break even on the amount of 'sid spent on clothing, housing, feeding.

One of the biggest appeals for me with the Byn is that they're NOT considered high up socially, that they're dirty grubby mercs without much social standing gives them more room to be the uneducated tactless brutes I love so dearly.


To put it in real life terms, can anyone name a famous Hessian commander?

[Dar]

I can't really support a "just ignore the social ladder" approach to politics. To me, that's basically ignoring the virtual world. Even if you (general) know on a practical level that there are only 3 noble PCs in the city and you're in good with all of them, that doesn't mean you are outside of the system as a whole.

In fact, I would really like to see people playing politics as if the virtual world was real, much more often. Profess fear that Voryek might come after you for something! Or whatever. Really, I mean it.

I understand and not understand this to be honest. It's got nothing to do with ignoring the virtual world. It's just a matter of realizing how much affect can this particular person can have on 'you'. If you disregard an in game PC, because while his/her position is higher, they are useless and harmless to you. Then it doesnt mean you're disregarding all those other vnpcs of the same position.

The only time the social ranking works, is "downwards" Meaning that while Gemmers are useful and very dangerous, they are still far below in standings.

Not about the Byn per se, but I wanted to note that a Captain in the AoD is not the head of the AoD. There is no commoner head of the AoD, the AoD is led by blue robes who are led by red robes etc.

I didnt say they were heads of AoD. I said they were "at" the Head of the AoD.

[Gimfalisette]

The only time the social ranking works, is "downwards" Meaning that while Gemmers are useful and very dangerous, they are still far below in standings.

I'm not sure what you mean by "downwards" here. Consideration of social rank goes in all directions; you need to be looking up, down, and to the side at all times.

And gemmers are basically commoners you don't want to have sex with or be very openly socially friendly with; they don't have some lower social rank simply because they are gemmers. They are not 'rinthis, unless they actually are 'rinthis. And even then, if the templarate likes them or Oash employs them, they acquire social rank that way.

Not about the Byn per se, but I wanted to note that a Captain in the AoD is not the head of the AoD. There is no commoner head of the AoD, the AoD is led by blue robes who are led by red robes etc.

I didnt say they were heads of AoD. I said they were "at" the Head of the AoD.

No, they're not at the head of the AoD. A Captain does not even command a whole Legion, but just one or more companies within it. A Legion is commanded by a blue robe. There are a handful of Captains within a Legion, and there are several Legions in the AoD as a whole.

[Zoltan]

I personally think a Byn commander should drop down a notch. A militia Captain and the head of a Merchant House are either employers of thousands of people, or are at the head of the "Arm" of the Dragon.  While an officer of the Byn, is an officer of an organization that while might be rich, is still covered in shit. Comparing Byn to a Merchant House is like comparing Jal to Oash.

The runners, the lowest rung of the Byn, are the ones frequently covered in shit. However, if you mean figuratively, as in "the Byn does dirty, shitty jobs for coin" then okay, I can kind of see your point.  

To Gimf, no, the Byn isn't as fabulously wealthy as GMH. But they are very well-to-do on the whole. Besides that, though I would say it pales in comparison to the sheer numbers and strength of the city states' militias, it is a very real military force and most would realize that. I do concede that the Byn presence in Tuluk is relatively recent and though I don't have the practical experience to back it up, I'd say it's not too terribly influential, either. However, the Byn has extremely deep roots in Allanak.

As to purely social ranks, I believe that pretty much all Byn sergeants, troopers and runners would all be hovering on that low, dirty commoner level. However Byn officers, especially the few captains and the one commander, would be generally held in higher esteem. These aren't the guys that shovel shit and slurp down Byn stew -- these are the guys that coordinate the movements of material and an army. (Granted, an army of social outcasts and such.  )

To Ender, when was the last count on Byn numbers?

[a strange shadow]

I think something important to keep in mind is that protection from powerful folk does not (always) equal social rank. Behind-the-scenes clout does not (always) equal respect... and vice versa. I can think of a few cases where characters rose to powerful positions, but their origins were never quite forgotten. There is a difference between clout (coded power), being connections/politics your PC uses, and social rank, which stems from birthright (which competence, clout, influence on the coded world, etc, can only enhance).

[brytta.leofa]

No, they're not at the head of the AoD. A Captain does not even command a whole Legion, but just one or more companies within it. A Legion is commanded by a blue robe. There are a handful of Captains within a Legion, and there are several Legions in the AoD as a whole.

I might be wrong, but--

Commoner "officers" in the Arm are much like non-commissioned officers in the U.S. military (or similar armed forces).  A captain is more like a Command Sergeant Major than a Lieutenant Colonel.  He has major responsibility, but he would never, say, order an attack unless the commanding blue or red robe was out of commission.

Folks more familiar with real or Zalanthan militaries, please correct me.

[Gimfalisette]

Commoner "officers" in the Arm are much like non-commissioned officers in the U.S. military (or similar armed forces).  A captain is more like a Command Sergeant Major than a Lieutenant Colonel.  He has major responsibility, but he would never, say, order an attack unless the commanding blue or red robe was out of commission.

I believe that a Captain could order his/her company(ies) to attack, defend, or carry out other operations insofar as those activities fall within a general plan which has usually been set by the commanding templars in consultation with their Captains. I don't know how that compares to the US military.

There is a difference between clout (coded power), being connections/politics your PC uses, and social rank, which stems from birthright (which competence, clout, influence on the coded world, etc, can only enhance).

Yeah, this right here. PCs often, OFTEN (maybe even almost always) tend to assign too much importance to their own, self-evaluated, coded power.

[Gimfalisette]

To Gimf, no, the Byn isn't as fabulously wealthy as GMH. But they are very well-to-do on the whole. Besides that, though I would say it pales in comparison to the sheer numbers and strength of the city states' militias, it is a very real military force and most would realize that. I do concede that the Byn presence in Tuluk is relatively recent and though I don't have the practical experience to back it up, I'd say it's not too terribly influential, either. However, the Byn has extremely deep roots in Allanak.
...

To Ender, when was the last count on Byn numbers?

The number of the Byn doesn't change over time, and it's not related to the number of PCs in the Byn. I believe that Ender is right about the total number of mercs in the Byn; it's certainly less than 1000.

Compare that to probably at least 10,000 soldiers of Tektolnes.

Also, I could see the Byn maybe having a million 'sids in their bank account, but Kadius probably has a billion. That's 1000 times more. The GMHs are not just a little larger than the Byn, they are incredibly larger. They also each have more employees than the Byn does.

The Byn is useful to the templarate and noble houses and GMHs because they are seen not as a crack military team but as a disposable front-line defense.

I think the Byn often looms large in player imagination, because a lot of us have played there and love the gritty side of the game, but that doesn't mean the Byn is important in terms of the game world.

[MarshallDFX]

Many of the aides I've met over the past few months are called aides, but have been more like House Servants.  They have tended to be hired fresh out of character creation, are useless for a few weeks, then die to a scrab or something.

To me, a true aide should be a long-liver type, and somebody with considerable investment into their position and social connections.  This describes only a small proportion of the aides/clerks I've encountered.

Perhaps I'm being cynical.  I haven't really met -that- many aides, so I'll concede if somebody wants to challenge that observation.

Upon reading Random Armageddon thoughts, Synthesis agrees.

I don't think "Aide" on that chart means "aide" like we loosely use the term to refer to clanned PCs that don't fit into the guard/slave category.  I suspect that most of the in-game "aides" would actually fall into the House servant category, which is quite a bit lower in status.

[Twilight]

It has been awhile since any of us has worn four knots, does it really matter?

IMHO, this is one of those positions where the social standing would vary depending on how the organization is currently viewed by the templarate.

[Gimfalisette]

Many of the aides I've met over the past few months are called aides, but have been more like House Servants.  They have tended to be hired fresh out of character creation, are useless for a few weeks, then die to a scrab or something.

To me, a true aide should be a long-liver type, and somebody with considerable investment into their position and social connections.  This describes only a small proportion of the aides/clerks I've encountered.

Perhaps I'm being cynical.  I haven't really met -that- many aides, so I'll concede if somebody wants to challenge that observation.

Upon reading Random Armageddon thoughts, Synthesis agrees.

I don't think "Aide" on that chart means "aide" like we loosely use the term to refer to clanned PCs that don't fit into the guard/slave category.  I suspect that most of the in-game "aides" would actually fall into the House servant category, which is quite a bit lower in status.

I agree with all that. I have played an aide, but most PCs who call themselves "aides" are truly not.

[Gimfalisette]

A couple of people have sent me PMs about Allanaki social stuff, with particular questions, and I'm going to put my replies here so that y'all have the use of (what little) wisdom I have on the topics, as you desire.

But out of curiousity. How do you see a roleplayed out example of the difference in social standing, that does not involve the actual concept of "clout" ? Like ... an example of the difference becoming apperant in Zalanthas? Stuff that doesnt involve matters such as the lowest kind (rinthies,breed,etc), or gemmed.

Well, there are lots of ways that social status can be played out. Often they are not played out, because players don't think about it much, I guess. But some examples are:

-- The person who buys the drinks has higher social status.
-- The person you don't dare to be late for a meeting with has higher social status.
-- The person whose order gets priority with Kadius has higher social status.
-- The preson whose opinion is deferred to in public has higher social status.
-- However, the person who is soliciting opinions in public has higher social status. ("I ask the questions here.")
-- The person who goes through the door first has higher social status.
-- The person who sits down first has higher social status, and gets to choose whether you sit or not.
-- The person who takes the bribe has higher social status.
-- The person who gives you spending money has higher social status.
-- The person you offer your seat to at the bar, or who could conceivably demand your seat, has higher social status.

I'm curious as to where you would place Tor Scorpions on that list.  They've generally seen themselves as "better" than the common enlisted/soldiers, being academy trained and military officers.  Yet by your rank structure, a "House Guard" is quite low.

Cadet = Militia recruit
Red = Militia Private
Silver = Militia Corporal / Sergeant
Senior Silver = Militia Lieutenant

Assuming that there are virtually a few Senior Silvers, that is.

Of course if a Tor soldier is actually an Academy graduate then that gives a little boost to actual status; however, Sergeants + in the AoD may possibly be Academy graduates as well. There are lots of little things like that which may boost or reduce status. For example, a while back there were some Tor employees who'd started their life (outside Allanak)...they always got slammed socially for that, because those who knew (outside of Tor) never forgot it.

It certainly makes sense for Tor soldiers to believe themselves better than militia soldiers, however, that doesn't necessarily mean in terms of social status they are any different. But the reverse is also true; soldiers of the AoD may also believe themselves better, for whatever reason, than Tor soldiers.

[ibusoe]

I like the original post. 

I also think that Gim had some good advice.

I'm also going to say here, though it's been said before (and probably better, by marko and others):

The most common mistake that PCs make in politics is to think themselves higher than they really are. This happens to PCs at all levels, especially when they are new: The new blue robe, the new noble, the new noble house recruit, the new family merchant, the new militia recruit, etc. Everyone wants to get in there and be a mover and shaker, but the truth is that if you try to move and shake too soon, you'll be the one who ends up hurt. If you want to last, and to amass real power (and social rank) in politics, then go slow, know the territory, make contacts and friends, and plan carefully. Basically, it's like adventuring--but in the city! Otherwise, it'll be your PC's corpse on the pile, real quick.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Tor Scorpions must be Academy Graduates.

[Clearsighted]

I am pretty sure that when you become a Byn Runner, you actually drop down a social notch from wherever you were before.

[LauraMars]

Wouldn't a concubine's (or whatever comparable role you choose to think of) social status depend largely on the noble/templar to whom she/he is attached?  The concubine of a junior Fale noble will have much less rank than the concubine of a (dare I say) Red Robe templar.  And the same goes for aides as well, though house servants usually have their own system of social ranking within their houses, unlike concubines, who are generally outside the bounds of servant social strata and depend solely on their patron for rank.  

Politics 101, natch, but it does effect things like charts.  Not that this isn't a good chart.  I like it quite a lot, for a chart.  Very nice, straight lines.  But as has been so eloquently discussed here, and elsewhere, things aren't always cut and dried.

[Gimfalisette]

Wouldn't a concubine's (or whatever comparable role you choose to think of) social status depend largely on the noble/templar to whom she/he is attached?  The concubine of a junior Fale noble will have much less rank than the concubine of a (dare I say) Red Robe templar.  And the same goes for aides as well, though house servants usually have their own system of social ranking within their houses, unlike concubines, who are generally outside the bounds of servant social strata and depend solely on their patron for rank.  

Politics 101, natch, but it does effect things like charts.  Not that this isn't a good chart.  I like it quite a lot, for a chart.  Very nice, straight lines.  But as has been so eloquently discussed here, and elsewhere, things aren't always cut and dried.

I don't really know. I kept concubines where they are on the original chart and didn't put them in there for templars as well, even though templars can have concubines. However, in the case of templars having concubines or any other kind of personal servant (aide) who is not within the command line of the AoD, then I think they would be pretty much equivalent to the concubines / aides / etc. of noble houses. Templars, after all, are still nobles. The concubine of a red robe is probably going to get a boost of status as compared to the concubine of a blue robe or the concubine of a non-senior noble, but their basic position on the chart doesn't change. Similarly, the senior aide of a red robe is gonna be actually status-ranked higher than the senior aide of a blue robe or non-senior noble, but when it all comes down to it they are in the same grouping. (And there are so few PCs in any of these higher positions at any given time that they really rarely actually have someone in direct comparison like that.)

[Twilight]

So, where would a bastard child of Tektolnes be?  Would it be above the other black robes, cause, uh, you know you are his kid, or do you really want to be below the other black robes, cause, uh, he's been known to off family if they are important?

Enquiring minds want to know!

[jcljules]

So, where would a bastard child of Tektolnes be?  Would it be above the other black robes, cause, uh, you know you are his kid, or do you really want to be below the other black robes, cause, uh, he's been known to off family if they are important?

Enquiring minds want to know!

Wrote Tektolnes Senior Templar (and bastard child) Cohran, "His Gloriousness's recent attempt to purify the minds of his people by banning the trade of the spice will certainly have grave ramifications on the well-being of the average man."

[Ocotillo]

One of my lasting ambitions is to meet Cohran before the game ends.

[Spoon]

Add dwaves to the bottom rung, as they're good for nothing but hard labour and hitting things. Dwarf racism in game rarely goes beyond "Hur hur, you short". Also, add half-giants on there too, as they're along the same lines from a human perspective.

This will probably spark a debate along the lines of elves and half-elves being lower on the scale, but on this table it makes more sense to lump them all together as non-humans and mutants.

[My 2 sids]

Now see, I don't think it portrays the gap between nobility and commoner nearly as much as it should.   ALL status comes from the nobility and is thus determined by one's proximity to the nobility.

Byn is like Kleenex -- a brand name for a sid-a-dozen mercenary.   Outside of perhaps the top officers, no one is going to know their name let alone offer any sort of respect above that of any other commoner.

I think the milta would be slightly higher (as a whole) because once they're actually a full-fledged soldier they'd be under a templar's unit.

There should be a large gap between the senior leaders of a merchant house and anyone else associated with the GMH -- specifically because working for a nobility house would be considered (by the nobility themselves) a far greater honor than working for a commoner house (no matter how rich and powerful)

Concubines and personal slaves would be a set with the ability to fluctuate greatly along the chart -- their status goes hand in hand with the owner.  

[Fathi]

Add dwaves to the bottom rung, as they're good for nothing but hard labour and hitting things. Dwarf racism in game rarely goes beyond "Hur hur, you short". Also, add half-giants on there too, as they're along the same lines from a human perspective.

This will probably spark a debate along the lines of elves and half-elves being lower on the scale, but on this table it makes more sense to lump them all together as non-humans and mutants.

Well, there is some evidence that dwarves aren't considered as socially unimportant than elves and half-elves because dwarves can join a lot of clans that elves and half-elves can't.

[Spoon]

Maybe that's part of the whole idea that dwarves are descended from a slave race, good for little but hunting and fighting. I think that's in the docs somewhere...

Infact, I'm not actually sure why dwarves are allowed to join certain noble houses, as the docs state that other races often find dwarves intolerable because of their single mindedness.

[FantasyWriter]

Maybe that's part of the whole idea that dwarves are descended from a slave race, good for little but hunting and fighting. I think that's in the docs somewhere...

Infact, I'm not actually sure why dwarves are allowed to join certain noble houses, as the docs state that other races often find dwarves intolerable because of their single mindedness.

When that single mindedness works in a direction that is favourable to you, it can be quite rewarding.

Also, Dwarves may be lower than humans, but they are also above elves, half-elves, half giants, magickers, rinthers, Undertulukis, and in some situations, tribals.

[brytta.leofa]

When that single mindedness works in a direction that is favourable to you, it can be quite rewarding.

Remember that dwarves actually do make quite good slaves.

[ibusoe]

Maybe that's part of the whole idea that dwarves are descended from a slave race, good for little but hunting and fighting. I think that's in the docs somewhere...

Infact, I'm not actually sure why dwarves are allowed to join certain noble houses, as the docs state that other races often find dwarves intolerable because of their single mindedness.

Yeah.  Actually, a lot of people who play dwarves do kind of a poor job.  They play their characters as short, buff, gruff, surly drunken dudes (i.e. Scottsmen) like Lord of the Rings instead of playing them the way the docs state (or imply) which is short, focused, narrow-minded, inquisitive, annoying, child-like Type-A personalities.

Properly role-played, a dwarf would be annoying as shit.

[FuSoYa]

instead of playing them the way the docs state (or imply) which is short, focused, narrow-minded, inquisitive, annoying, child-like Type-A personalities.

Properly role-played, a dwarf would be annoying as shit.

I'm not picking nits but I'm curious as I've ALWAYS been interested in playing a dwarf but never though I would do a good job.

I can understand how some might find their traits annoying but I do not think necessarily every dwarf would be annoying.  That being said I'm not a fan of absolutes of any type.  Also, what do you think is 'child-like' about their personality?

Brandon

[ibusoe]

I can understand how some might find their traits annoying but I do not think necessarily every dwarf would be annoying.  That being said I'm not a fan of absolutes of any type.  Also, what do you think is 'child-like' about their personality?

Sure, you have a point.

Why childlike?  Well, they're singular in the way that children are about things like sugar.  And persistent.  Maybe not the best analogy?

[FuSoYa]

I can understand how some might find their traits annoying but I do not think necessarily every dwarf would be annoying.  That being said I'm not a fan of absolutes of any type.  Also, what do you think is 'child-like' about their personality?

Sure, you have a point.

Why childlike?  Well, they're singular in the way that children are about things like sugar.  And persistent.  Maybe not the best analogy?

Yes, that was what I was gathering from what you meant but I think there would be a big difference in child-like versus a dwarves particular narrow-minded, focus on something.

For instance a child might throw a tantrum if he didn't get his sugar and while a dwarf might do the same from what I've garnered he might also just turn his focus to a slightly different direction in his attempts to continue forward with his goal.

Just musing... a dwarf has always interested me but I just do not think I would do the character justice so I've yet to really try.

Brandon

[Gargath]

I would put *gemmers somewhere between tier 1 and 2 there only because they are an upper echelon noble house employee. To be safe, I would still toss them on tier 1. Maybe go with tier 2 for the higher ranked ones.

I think the Byn are also ranked too high.

Just my 2 'sids.  

*Oash gemmers

[ibusoe]

Oh yeah, one minor correction -- Rinthers probably shouldn't be on the same tier as elves.

There are many sorts of Rinthers, ranging from Rinthers who serve in the Legion to Rinthers who supply raw obsidian to House Kadius to Rinthers who have never held an honest job in their whole life. 

Lots of junior players have trouble distinguishing the accent from the geographic area from the lifestyle.

If you want to put someone on par with elves, it's probably better to list "beggars" or "grebbers" or "unemployed spiceheads"

[brytta.leofa]

Rinthers who serve in the Legion

Man, jest one more sign that there's no accountin' fer northies.

[Gimfalisette]

Oh yeah, one minor correction -- Rinthers probably shouldn't be on the same tier as elves.

There are many sorts of Rinthers, ranging from Rinthers who serve in the Legion to Rinthers who supply raw obsidian to House Kadius to Rinthers who have never held an honest job in their whole life. 

Lots of junior players have trouble distinguishing the accent from the geographic area from the lifestyle.

If you want to put someone on par with elves, it's probably better to list "beggars" or "grebbers" or "unemployed spiceheads"

None of that matters to social status. Functionally, when it comes to the social niceties, those types are all on the same level. Which is to say, no one makes socially nice to them. An "honest" rinthi is still a rinthi, just like an "honest" elf is still an elf.

[Jingo]

Oh yeah, one minor correction -- Rinthers probably shouldn't be on the same tier as elves.

There are many sorts of Rinthers, ranging from Rinthers who serve in the Legion to Rinthers who supply raw obsidian to House Kadius to Rinthers who have never held an honest job in their whole life. 

Lots of junior players have trouble distinguishing the accent from the geographic area from the lifestyle.

If you want to put someone on par with elves, it's probably better to list "beggars" or "grebbers" or "unemployed spiceheads"

None of that matters to social status. Functionally, when it comes to the social niceties, those types are all on the same level. Which is to say, no one makes socially nice to them. An "honest" rinthi is still a rinthi, just like an "honest" elf is still an elf.

This may be the ideal but the ideal almost never matches reality. Or in other words, most people may hold a black/white viewpoint. But socio-economic realities will always come first.

I think it would be more realistic if rinthis were commonly employed for cheap labor and commonly misidentified as non-rinthi'.

[KankWhisperer]

Maybe that's part of the whole idea that dwarves are descended from a slave race, good for little but hunting and fighting. I think that's in the docs somewhere...

Infact, I'm not actually sure why dwarves are allowed to join certain noble houses, as the docs state that other races often find dwarves intolerable because of their single mindedness.

Yeah.  Actually, a lot of people who play dwarves do kind of a poor job.  They play their characters as short, buff, gruff, surly drunken dudes (i.e. Scottsmen) like Lord of the Rings instead of playing them the way the docs state (or imply) which is short, focused, narrow-minded, inquisitive, annoying, child-like Type-A personalities.

Properly role-played, a dwarf would be annoying as shit.

Let's see: short, buff, gruff, surly, drunken...

Short: DOCS
Buff: DOCS
Gruff/Surly: Hard to say. If you are not helping them then they might be surly/gruff because you are a hindrance and not a help.
Drunken: Hard to say. The dwarf focus is a very hard thing to role play. Does the dwarf actually have no preferences other than his focus?
If so a dwarf would just ignore all social conventions unless they directly impacted his focus. If dwarves had no vices or faults then they would just be machines with no personality. I see it as dwarves have other likes/dislikes but they only arise when they can't work directly on their focus at that moment. I also see no reference to them being childlike or more inquisitive than anyone else. If this was not so, I think they would never even bother to reproduce enough to continue the race.

They have just a narrower view of the world, but it can expand if necessary, for example if their current plan is not working and they decide to try something else to get to the same end. They examine the whole picture then select a narrower path once again and get to work.

[Synthesis]

Yeah.  Actually, a lot of people who play dwarves do kind of a poor job.  They play their characters as short, buff, gruff, surly drunken dudes (i.e. Scottsmen) like Lord of the Rings instead of playing them the way the docs state (or imply) which is short, focused, narrow-minded, inquisitive, annoying, child-like Type-A personalities.

Properly role-played, a dwarf would be annoying as shit.

Half-giants are the ones who are inquisitive, not dwarves.  Dwarves don't give a rat's ass about anything that doesn't immediately pertain to their focus, although they might consider it if they thought about it long enough and decided it was germane to their one overriding interest.  Further, I'm not sure you can categorize dwarves in general as being "Type A" personalities.  According to the almighty Wikipedia:

"Type A individuals can be described as impatient, time-conscious, concerned about their status, highly competitive, ambitious, business-like, aggressive, having difficulty relaxing; and are sometimes disliked by individuals with Type B personalties for the way that they're always rushing.[1] They are often high-achieving workaholics who multi-task, drive themselves with deadlines, and are unhappy about delays."

I don't think any of these characteristics are necessarily part of the dwarven psyche.  Yes, they want to get something done, but that doesn't mean they're impatient about it, or that they're competitive, ambitious, multi-tasking, etc.  It's possible that some are, but I suspect that most dwarves aren't terribly concerned with the aspect of time, because they're much more interested in getting it done right than in just getting it done.  It's rather difficult to think deeply and intensely about something while simultaneously feeling rushed and impatient.  Furthermore, since the life expectancy of dwarves is nearly double that of humans, it doesn't seem like they'd have any sort of biological imperative to be rushed, impatient, or otherwise stressed out. 

I think the average dwarf would actually be damnably frustrating to work with for reasons exactly opposite of Type A personality traits:  they would be perceived as being plodding and overly deliberate.  Perhaps they'd even be perceived as being lazy, since they need to spend an awful lot of time just thinking, and they probably wouldn't attend to menial tasks that need to get done.  "Sweep out the crafting hall? Bah...I need to figure out how to carve that clasp just right so it lies smoothly under the neckline of the dress without making an obvious bump...stone just isn't cutting it...too bulky...bone, maybe...but what kind of bone...something small, delicate...but it has to be durable...you know, I've heard there are some tiny bones inside ears...hmm...maybe halfling ear-bones would do the trick...how do I get some halfling ear-bones? Sweeping? Later...halfling ear-bones...alright, the hunters won't do it because they're not allowed into the Grey because of rules the Agent put in place...maybe I could get the Agent to change the rules...maybe I should just get her out of the way and the next guy they put in charge won't have any stupid rules about the Grey...I really need these halfling ear-bones...I'm convinced nothing else is going to cut it."  Meanwhile, the sweeping's been done by someone else, and the dwarf is still sitting in a now-darkened corner of the hall, well past working hours, having not accomplished much of anything other than some really deep thinking.  I don't think dwarves would be particularly prone to outburst of rage, either, since such things are typically done without thinking, and dwarves tend to plan everything meticulously, because otherwise something could go wrong and they wouldn't be able to get it done.  For example, if a dwarf orders a tool he needs, but the merchant is weeks behind on the order, I don't think the dwarf would fly off the handle and start making threats and accusations, because he'd have to stop and think about it.  After an hour or so of stewing it over at the bar, he might return to the merchant with a steadily seething anger and a threat, but it's unlikely he would instantly grab the merchant by the lapel and hold a knife to his throat for failing to meet the deadline...because, "what happens if the merchant's bodyguard intervenes and injures me?  What if I slip and accidentally kill the merchant...now I can't get the right tool because he's the only one I know who can make it properly, and then the militia will be after me and there's no way I can get this thing carved while sitting in the dungeons...and if I anger this merchant too much, he might just refuse to deal with me anymore, and what if I break the tool and I need another one?"

At any rate, neither half-giants nor dwarves are child-like in any meaningful way.  In fact, the roleplaying docs go out of their way to reinforce the idea that half-giants are NOT child-like.

[Barsook]

Sorry for bumping this, but I have three questions:

- I was told that Templars have ranks along with their robe colors.  If this is true, can we have a updated chart?
- I think the three playable Noble Houses have different rank names for their aides, can that be in the footnotes for the updated chart?
- Can the chart be on the site, so it can accessed easier?

[wizturbo]

Sorry for bumping this, but I have three questions:

- I was told that Templars have ranks along with their robe colors.  If this is true, can we have a updated chart?
- I think the three playable Noble Houses have different rank names for their aides, can that be in the footnotes for the updated chart?
- Can the chart be on the site, so it can accessed easier?

I think some of these ranks are deliberately not well known.  Now, that isn't to say an OOC social chart couldn't be posted for characters that have a good reason to know these things, but I can see where it might be a controversial issue as Armageddon isn't well known for sharing IC stuff like that, even if it might be handy.

[little chicken woman]

Maybe that's part of the whole idea that dwarves are descended from a slave race, good for little but hunting and fighting. I think that's in the docs somewhere...

Infact, I'm not actually sure why dwarves are allowed to join certain noble houses, as the docs state that other races often find dwarves intolerable because of their single mindedness.

Yeah.  Actually, a lot of people who play dwarves do kind of a poor job.  They play their characters as short, buff, gruff, surly drunken dudes (i.e. Scottsmen) like Lord of the Rings instead of playing them the way the docs state (or imply) which is short, focused, narrow-minded, inquisitive, annoying, child-like Type-A personalities.

Properly role-played, a dwarf would be annoying as shit.

I can't play a naughty elf, but I can play the hell out of a dwarf.

I wonder what that says about me.