Garrottes

[JollyGreenGiant]

This is something I mentioned in another thread, but I'd like to get some feedback before I submit it as an idea.

I think garrottes would be an interesting weapon, especially for the stealthy, though certainly not restricted thereto.  I imagine a successful strike with a garrotte would go off of the subdue skill.  If successful, the victim loses the ability to speak, and periodically loses hp and stun points.  The victim could attempt to escape the garrotte, but each failed attempt would result in additional lost hp/stun points.

The construction of a garrotte would determine what its primary function is (to kill or merely subdue).  For example, a cord garrotte would do mostly stun damage, while a cloth garrotte with glass/obsidian/bone cleverly knotted into it would do mostly hp damage.  I'm assuming, of course, that a wire garrotte would be unheard of.

Garrottes have to be wielded two-handed, as well.

Thoughts?  Comments?

[Dakkon Black]

I like the idea, but would also think that it would be perhaps a mix of Backstab and Subdue. Either way, most of the garrotes I know arent made to do slow damage at all but more like insta death. Otherwise I'd like to see it brought in as a weapon, under what class?? Maybe a new one?

[Pungee]

Actually, I once played a MU* with Garrottes. They were entirely strength based. Using one isn't a skill where you can 'miss' and honestly I'd be horribly disappointed if you could miss or fail if Garrottes were implemented. All you have to be able to do is hold it in place and make sure the target doesn't know its coming.

So, be hidden, sneak over, BANG garrotte. The reason it was strength based is because you can't wiggle out of it and the only way to get it off is to force the persons hands away from the wire or your neck and in that position you need to be stronger than the other person to even manage to move them enough to live. Subduing someone actually takes skill rather than strength, thats why wrestling is a sport.

So yes, I like the idea of Garrottes. I think they should just be a little bit rarer than lockpicks and I also would like to see it based on strength opposed to a skill of some kind.

[Dakkon Black]

Suer they have a big strenght requirement but If i cant stab someone sneakily untill the three hundreth try I sure as Drov cant slip a garrote over thier head. Subdue requires the skill to grab the person and then the strength to keep them there. No matter what, you'll need to be sneaky to go grab them, and thats gonna require skill.

[Pungee]

I wouldn't mind if it required a high sneak/hide ability. I just think the actual success of the garrotte shouldn't be dependant on anything other than strength with the limitation that the target can't be aware of you in order to do it. It -really- doesn't take any kind of talent to be able to put a wire over someones head. Hell I've been messing around with friends before and put string around their necks like it was a garrotte (yes, we are violent people) when they weren't looking. So I think as long as you have the ability to not be noticed by your mark, you should be able to get a successful garrotte in without too much trouble beyond them and their strength rating vs you and your strength rating.

[JollyGreenGiant]

DakkonBlack wrote:

Either way, most of the garrotes I know arent made to do slow damage at all but more like insta death.

Keep in mind that RL garrottes are typically made of wire.  A metal garrotte would be all but impossible to find on Zalanthas.  Not only is metal rare, but the ability to create wire with sufficient tensile strength from metal would be extremely rare.

You'd probably see more silk-cord garrottes, which don't cut into skin as effectively as wire, but certainly would strangle someone.

I also think you ought to be able to "miss" with a garrotte, especially if the victim is wearing any form of neck armor.


Your hand at the level of your eyes...

[gfair]

I'm also in support of the idea, and as I said in the other thread, garrottes are lethal.  That said, there is no way they are easy to apply and can't be failed.  They should be no easier than backstab to perform, because the consequences of being garrotted are as equally severe.  Basing it as a branch of backstab sounds like a good idea.

Being garrotted would not last long at all, perhaps 20 seconds at the most. Game time, in terms of combat, that's probably 10 combat rounds, giving the target ample time to try and get out of it, which should be possible.  You may be garroted and being strangled, but the guy strangling you is totally open to attack, whether it be a stab in the leg, stomp on the foot, or a dagger to some part of the leg, ribs, or eyes.  Naturally, unarmed people are pretty much doomed, as are those that panic easily in combat - perhaps that points to flee as the skill that will get you out of a garrott, and access to a knife or dagger helping your chances of escape.

I like the idea of not being able to speak, though certainly choking noises would be heard.  As for HP damage as well as stun, no thanks.  You aren't being damaged when you're being garrotted, you're being starved of breath.  The damage from garrotting comes from after you have passed out - continued strangulation and plunging blood-oxygen content begins to kill brain cells extremely quickly, and ultimately that is what kills you.

Also, being seen stuffing a garrott away, or pulling it out, would pretty much be a death sentence, I figure, because a dagger can be used for many purposes, but something that could clearly be a garrott would have only one intent.

[Twilight]

How would you take into account things like kank plate gorgets, which would effectively render a garrote useless?

How would you take into account my sheathed knife, and that I could use it to quickly cut the cord, whether cloth, silk, cord or whatever, because you aren't going to find a metal garrote?

How do you take into account the massive musculature common to dwarves, such that you might not even be -able- to strangle some of the more muscular ones?

How do you take into account that the attacker, if the garrote doesn't almost instantly kill, is -extremely- vulnerable to attack by say, a knife, from his victim, because both his hands are free?  You might be choking me, but I just disembowled you.

[Pungee]

Well, some good points have been raised thus far. I'll try and address a few of them.

Full neck armor that covers the entirety of the throat/arteries would render garrotting useless. You need to be able to get the throat collapsed and the arteries cut off so no blood gets to the brain (as I recall thats how it works so quickly, you don't strangle you black out and THEN strangle).

The knife to cut the cord really isn't an option. Cutting the cord means cutting your throat as the cord is dug into your skin to the point where your windpipe and arteries shut, thats a pretty solid amount of force. The fact that a metal garrotte is never cut has nothing to do with it being metal, it has to do with the fact that it can't be safely cut.

Dwarven Musculature? Shouldn't really matter your throat is still vunerable and not surrounded by a good deal of muscle and the arteries are still pretty close to the surface of your skin.

Defender guts attacker? Not likely. There are two likely positions that the defender will be in once garrotted. The first is standing up with their back flush against the attackers chest. You could possibly reach around and stab them in the side but panic sets in most of the time and you forget about that. If you -do- remember to reach for your knife, then the second likely position comes in. You, knees bent and out trying to maintain balance after the attacker kneed you in the spine. Not only are you even more unlikely to be able to muster the strength to pry their hands apart then, you won't be able to stab them because you'll fall straight on your ass and be on the ground. That position would leave you open to just get your head stabbed a few times instead of blacking out and strangling.

Hopefully that helped.  

[Twilight]

Knife cutting cord - You don't cut the cord at the front, it would be dug into your throat.  However, at the back of the neck, even if they were knowledgeable and twisted the garrote, its not going to sink in because of your spine.  You insert it under the cord, above your spine, forget about what you do to your skin, at that point who cares.  The tension in the cord itself helps to insure you cut through the garrote.

Dwarven Musculature - Assuming it was like a human, you could still garrote.  I envision muscles so thick on a really muscular dwarf, that it would be as tough as a tree branch ie the muscle structure would actually be different, more dense, than a human's.

Gutting - I'm not sure I follow.  If their stomach is flat with my back, it would be a matter of a couple of seconds to draw your knife in reverse grip, and stab backwards and up, right beside your back.  This would hit the attacker on the side of the stomach.  Draw blade upwards.  Disembowled.  You don't need to cut the front of the stomach open to disembowl, the side works just fine.  As for dropping someone to their knees, that -might- work, but is by no means assured (if you try to knee them, they have a chance to step to the side and back).  However, if you manage to do it, then there are other things to do, like dropping all the way to the floor, so they are bent over.

I think the idea is neat, don't get me wrong.  I just don't think it is practical.

[Gar]

You need to be able to get the throat collapsed and the arteries cut off so no blood gets to the brain (as I recall thats how it works so quickly, you don't strangle you black out and THEN strangle).

These are actually two separate effects.  Cutting off the blood flow to the brain will cause someone to black out rather quickly, like under ten seconds probably more like five.  If you continue to keep the blood flow stopped for another couple minutes the person will be dead.  This is completely independant from cutting off the air flow.  Cutting off air flow will take a minute or more to cause someone to black out.  After which time they will die in a few more minutes.

The knife to cut the cord really isn't an option. Cutting the cord means cutting your throat as the cord is dug into your skin to the point where your windpipe and arteries shut, thats a pretty solid amount of force.

True but you could cut your own neck in a non-lethal spot to free yourself.

Defender guts attacker? Not likely....

Well, it really depends.  You don't just have to reach around.  You could stab straight back, slam your head back, stomp their foot, reach back and poke their eyes, throw them over your back like a flip, run backwards and slam them into a solid object.  The point is someone being choked can do any number of things.  AND you're talking about choking folks that are possibly trained and actually fight and kill regularly.  Believe me they will figure out ways to get out.

And finally you're saying that it should be automatic?  I cannot go for this.  If you walked right up behind me and I let you or didn't notice then it might be easy.  But we're talking about a world where people are always in fear for their lives.  Death is always around.  They would be much more skittish.  Getting the drop on someone is not going to be automatic.  I see it kinda like sap.  Maybe even harder since you need to get in even closer, unnoticed.

[Gar]

... and I also would like to see it based on strength opposed to a skill of some kind.

Can't agree with you here either.  Strength is definitely important but just setting the garotte set requires skill, cunning, agility...
Same with holding the garotte in place.  This is where strength comes in but if you don't set your feet correctly you could be flipped or stabbed or knocked off balance, no matter what your strength.  Try to garotte someone who is decent in judo (even someone much smaller than you) and you'll see.  So skill and agility is still needed.

[Dan]

I don't know about being able to disembowel someone who is choking you with a garrotte. Try this right now, stand up, reach to your belt and at as though you are pulling out a knife, now as hard as you can force your arm back in a stabbing motion... Erh... I can't get my arms that far behind my back with enough force to go through leather, or tightly knit cloth even. You'd have to have some sort of razor sharp knife, along the lines of obsidian, but even then it would be stretching it. This is also assuming he has his chest to your back and he is the same width as you. If the attacker was determined he might just take the stabs, since you'd not really be able to disembowel them if they have their chest to your back.

Not to mention how hard it would be to keep your cool in a situation like that, even for your average badass Zalanthan.

[spawnloser]

I'm going to make a few quick points...the most recently read will be the first addressed, but not the most important.

Disembowling, eh?  Heheh.  Dan's right.  You're more likely to stab the person in the leg or face.  Continuing along on a similar topic, since you're still using your knife, good luck cutting the cord while its so close to your neck...I hope you don't slice a vein or artery open.

The not having a skill?  If some things should take a skill, I want shield use taken out because I should be able to see a sword coming in and since I'm agile get it in the way of the strike.  Wait...no.  Stats help, but you NEED skill to set the garotte, twist it behind their neck.  If you suck at it, you suck at it.

As far as Dwarves and their muscular necks, I'm REALLY surprised that people didn't bring up Mul which are ridiculously muscled, and probably more so, and the obvious choice of Half-Giants...how the hell are you supposed to garotte a half-giant???

The full neck armor thing?  Right, with just enough skill you can bypass that...there is no such thing as 'full neck armor' because you wouldn't be able to twist your neck in any way shape or form.

I disagree with the subdue skill idea though.  Subdue is wrestling...garotting is so NOT wrestling.  It's more like sneaking up on someone and urting them a lot...just in a different way.

[Gar]

I was thinking of some good movie examples of garotting (sp?).  

The first is from the Godfather when Michael has Connie's husband killed after he helped whack Sonny.  He gets into the front passengers seat of a car for a ride.  Some hitman sits behind him and applies the garotte.  This seems like a good way to do it.  The victim is constrained by the car and it makes struggling very difficult.  The seat is between their bodies so there is no way to get at the attacker.  In this situation it really is a question of strength.  Even so, he manages to flail about and kicks out the windshield before he expires.

The second example is a James Bond film, I forget which one.  Roger Moore gets attacked by a martial arts expert with a garotte.  They tumble all around and of course after an extended fight scene, 007 gets the best of him.

[Stroker]

Just make it an RP tool???

[Dan]

No, not an rp tool.

I think something like this does have a place in Armageddon as a weapon of some sort. Thought I don't see how it could be used without more coding and work.

[Samoa]

I would like to be the one to point out that having this would like having the ability to subdue and then draw/kill, which was complained about so vigorously it was removed (and rightfully so, it was grossly overpowered).  Anyway, uh, just pointing that out.

[JollyGreenGiant]

I think I'd agree with the various people who have suggested that it would be more similar to the backstab skill.

Also, as mentioned, there really is no such thing as "impenetrable" neck armor, although armor there of any kind would make garrotting much more difficult.

I'd agree that holding a successful garrotte would be primarily strength, although it would probably also depend on agility.

Depending on the type of garrotte, it's going to do some harm to you.  Wire garrottes definitely do not strangle, they sever.  Even cloth garrottes, if they are thin enough, are going to cut into the skin - and if it hits an artery, you're screwed.

Point taken about half-giants.  It'd be difficult enough to get high enough to get the garrotte around their neck, let alone strangle/sever the neck.  Unless you were a half-giant too.  Then again, I don't really see a garrotte being the weapon of choice for a half-giant  :shock:

Other races, though, like muls and dwarves, though, should be affected normally.  Garrottes strangle - they cut off blood flow by restricting arteries and veins - choking (cutting off the ability to breathe) is merely a side-effect.  I'm assuming that the physiology of muls and dwarves is similar to humans, and that vital blood supply is still close to the surface.  They'd be more difficult to strangle, naturally, but they would strangle.

this would like having the ability to subdue and then draw/kill

I think it's more like the sap ability, actually, but that's just my opinion.

[X-D]

Where to start...Ok, first, wire garrottes work nice because they -quickly- sever trachea and veins and arteries, Anything else is just strangling and basicly only works on a subdued person or somebody far weaker then you.

Second, it takes from 2-4 minutes IRL for a strangled person to pass out.
A dwarf, half-giant or mul is going to reach back and rip your head off your shoulders in that time (hysterical strength) IRL I had somebody attempt to strangle me from behind, as my vision began to fade and a sort of hysteria set in I reached back and literaly picked him up over me an threw him a few feet in front of me, I'll not say what I did to him next.


Third, IRL your veins are within an inch of the surface but the arteries are well protected by muscle and cartelidge, on a dwarf, mul or half-giant, you might as well forget it, unless you are one of those races. IRL it takes quite a bit of force to -slash- somebodies throat to the point of them -maybe- bleeding to death.

And lastly, if you are about to die, I am sure you would be willing to take the risk of cutting yourself in order to cleave the head of your attacker, or gut him, cleaving his head is better, not like he can dodge much and still hold onto the garrotte.

[JollyGreenGiant]

Second, it takes from 2-4 minutes IRL for a strangled person to pass out.

Uhhh... no.  It takes less than 30 seconds.  And even less if the person is struggling violently (and using more oxygen).  I found out very quickly just how long you don't have from sparring in jiujitsu.  Always better to tap out... passing out feels wierd.

[Twilight]

Strangling (just cutting off air supply) actually takes awhile to have someone pass out.  On the other hand, with a properly applied choke hold will cause you to pass out in 9-11 seconds or so.  The whole cut off the blood flow thing I guess.  In Brazilian jujitsu, they will actually practice making each other unconcious, fun, fun, no tapping out.

[gfair]

On the topic of cutting the cord - not realistic.  You don't have that much time or ability to place a knife behind your head, slit it between a thin gap, and cut the cord.  Chances are, your attacker will either elbow it into your neck, or knock it away, or you'll blank out first.

There is clearly a size and strength component to escaping - isn't that the same with flee, the likely skill you would use to escape a garrot?  But just because there's issues with size and strength doesn't mean you can't garrot someone larger than you.  Dwarves, Muls and HGs could clearly be strangled to death.  HGs may be the exception because they're so massive, but a Dwarf and a Mul, while incredibly strong and tough, are not that much harder to strangle.  You can still incapacitate them.


You may be able to defend yourself, but so can the attacker.  He can knee you in your spine, trip you up, toss you about, roll you to wrap the garrot cord around itself in a tricky way, he could get you down on your stomach and sit/kneel on you, etc.


But that's all issues involved in garrotting someone - you learn to jerk that cord with all your life, because it might be just that if you don't squeeze hard enough.  You learn all the defenses, you learn all the additional things you can do.  You could have one part of the string tied round a thick leather flap on one wrist and keep a knife handy in that wrist to slice away the neck.


Also, this is only one option, you still have plenty of opportunities to vitally wound people without the use of a strangling cord.  For example, the good ole backstab, or sap 'n stab, still classic ways to off some bugger.

Not sure if it's a useful skill, but it would be cool to have in the game.  And after garrot, then we just need Katanas and Wakizashi, throwing stars, we've got footpads already, just need some black, chitin-banded jumpsuits and then everybody was Kung Fu fighting.

The whole cut off the blood flow thing I guess. In Brazilian jujitsu, they will actually practice making each other unconcious, fun, fun, no tapping out.

The problem with comparing that to garrotes is that most martial arts moves like that take -much- more precision, and usually takes more applying pressure to specific points than a garrote can offer, the garrote will run into the windpipe first, and unless it can cut it, you won't hit the arteries for a while, like X-D said.

[Dan]

Katanas and throwing stars (by another name) are already around haha, -MAN- I want a jumpsuit!