Garrottes

[JollyGreenGiant]

The problem with comparing that to garrotes is that most martial arts moves like that take -much- more precision

I didn't really intend to compare the two, I was just using jiujitsu to illustrate the point that it didn't actually take long at all to black someone out, but you bring up an interesting point.  Jiujitsu relies more on agility and using body weight to do your work for you than it does on strength, while garrotting is pretty much strength related to pull off.  The only comparable choke I can think of offhand is a lasso choke (where you use the other fighter's gi, shirt, or whatever) from a standing position.  It actually is pretty difficult to pull off in tournaments (as opposed to practice), which lends itself to the idea that someone more skilled with a garrotte is going to be able to more quickly subdue someone, which only makes sense.

On a side note, you can always tell when you're doing it right.  The person being choked will involuntarily make a really interesting noise.  It sort of goes, "Grkkrkrkrkrk".

[Pungee]

Allright, I hate being the stubborn ass of the group but I'm going to be. Someone has to do it.    How does garrotting require skill? That's why it was invented. It takes NO skill to reach over someones head and put a cord around it and pull it tight enough so that the cord closes the trachea and the major arteries. Things like the garrotte make it so instead of having to hire the really expensive assassin, you can pay a slave an extra loaf of bread to go kill someone and theres a chance they can pull it off.

Knife fighting is something that requires skill (I've learned the basics of it and you'd be surprised how fast you jump out of the way when a knife is coming at you). Your opponent doesn't want to get hit and they tend to dodge a lot and its not that easy to hit them, especially if they have a knife.

Archery without a crossbow requires a LOT of skill. An actual bow doesn't shoot straight and shooting it over any distance actually requires training from what I understand.

Garrotting is something I can't see as requiring some special knowledge, training or ability beyond strength and perhaps some minimal speed.

For the sake of game mechanics, I can DEFINITELY see how the players and staff would want this skill controlled. For that reason, I think it would be completely plausible if you needed sneak and hide near perfection along with a mid level unarmed combat ability in order to use a garrotte without stepping too loudly and revealing yourself or something to that extent. But once you have a high enough sneak/hide/unarmed that should be all thats required to use a garrotte.  

[X-D]

I hate to bring this up again Pungee, But in zalanthas there is still a sad lack of good materials for a reasonable garrotte about the best would be whatever they make bowstrings out of, and So it still becomes simple strangling wich simply allows that the attacker be in contact with his prey for too long, I'll go with the other posters time on it and 10-15 seconds is a very long time and such a skill would need a lot of counters on it.

meaning the victem would have time to do things, myself, I think you would have to be allowed a couple grabs or stabs, I would love to be playing the dwarf that rips off some elf's arm. Or the half-giant that uses the back command and simply steps back into a wall turning the elf to jelly, or the mul that uses the flex command and simply tenses up snapping the string of sinew by flexing his neck muscles:)

IRL I would be near willing to let anyone try to strangle me with a cord, but you will need to sign a waver first...I'm mean.

Comment on martial arts, Sorry, I cannot take them into account myself, I've dabbled in a few styles but for the most part I'm a boxer/brawler.
I can beat 99% of the 'martial artists' out there (as can just about any other boxer) SImply because I'm in a LOT better shape then 99% of 'martial artists' but boxers have to be, and we can take a lot more punishment, it is rare for a 'martial artist' to be able to take what we can dish out.

On neck armor, before anybody comments on no neck armor being 'garrott' fullproof, they should maybe read more collar/gorget descs in game. I can think of one quite common gorget right off hand that stats that the plates on each side of the neck flare over the shoulder and extend up towards the ears on each side of the head, making it uncomfortable and limiting turning the head.

I venture to say that is fullproof, that and since we really do not have metal on zalanthas you can figure that if a garrotting skill went in, it would not be very long before collars and gorgets would be made with shards/razors of flint and such on them specificly made to cut strangling cords.

As I said before, the garrott or strangling cord is (aside from movies and entertainment novels) really only good against an unarmed/armored opponent who is weaker then you.

Otherwise backstab and sap serve far better, IRL these are things you would use against a stronger foe.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Agreed, X-D.

Garroting has always been used as a tidy tool for the murder of nobles, typical guard-types (we common guards in Zalanthas wear astounding amounts of heavy armors, but in the middle-ages, fighters who were not knights generally did NOT wear massive amounts of armor, and many were well equipped to have a pair of leather gloves, leggings and not trousers, and a doublet or leather vest), and common street killings. Garroting requires modest strength and reflexes, but the skill, other than the approach, is non-existant.

That said, I certianly would like to see this as a skill. Perhaps a skill like the way is presented, where one cannot get better or worse, but must rely upon bringing sneaking, hiding, and offense up for improvement. Do allow it to be open for all classes, but simply do a check for the class, as some classes, such as assassins and warriors, will have more knowledge of it.

[Pungee]

The point we keep coming back to is that the target is concious for enough time to retaliate somehow. Well, for the sake of the code it would probably be best to have a strike command which lets the person prone have a shot at hitting whoever is garrotting them with an elbow or something. There'd have to be a downside though, you just tried to elbow and it didnt do enough to get you loose. Now you're one tick til dead instead of two. So, perhaps we can all agree on something like the following:
-----
Skill Garrotte

Dependant on strength and some agility for a sucessful kill. It cannot be attempted unless a near mastery in stealth is possessed by the user of this command. Those being garrotted do have a few seconds to attempt to break free. Each round a check is made between attacker strength/agility and victim strength/agility. If the attacker fails, the victim breaks free. The victim also has the ability to attempt a strike to inflict enough damage to get the attacker to release his grip. When a strike is attempted the victim loses a round off of his time to live if the strike should fail. If it succeeds in getting the attacker off, it puts the attacker off balance.
------
That sound fairly good to all parties involved as a Code Suggestion? You'd limit it's usage to the people who've managed to survive long enough to get near perfect sneak and hide and still have a chance at getting out of it by two seperate means while keeping the skill strength/agi based to allow for more realism. Mayhap a discussion on the GDB is settled?  

[creeper386]

The victim also has the ability to attempt a strike to inflict enough damage to get the attacker to release his grip.

One problem is this... If I don't have any other means and am resulting to killing someone this way I'm probably desperate or want to REALLY kill them, and no amount of pain is going to get me off. It's the type of thing that isn't really too common except as revenge type of thing, as if you are in a secluded place neccessary to kills some this way there are plenty of easier ways to do it.

I don't know... It doesn't seem to me to be something too plausible. Specially if they attackee does enough damage the person breaks free? Most the time enough damage is going to be death to get the person off, or knock them unconcious, at least in terms of trying to hit them untill they release... SHRUG. I don't know...


Creeper who doesn't think it'd be grandly worthwhile... or even used that much.

[Pungee]

Break a rib. If you do that, they cant effectively use that arm and you might be able to break free via your own power.

[JollyGreenGiant]

I'd like to thank everyone who participated in the discussion.  A lot of good considerations were raised, and on the whole, it was a lot of fun.  Pungee, I think you compiled everyone's ideas very well, and my submission will probably be pretty close to what you suggested.

Thanks again to everyone who participated

[X-D]

Hhhmmm, I think it would need be a little in depth then one strike.

As creeper says

If I don't have any other means and am resulting to killing someone this way I'm probably desperate or want to REALLY kill them, and no amount of pain is going to get me off.

This also applies to the victem, under the threat of certain death there is not much you will not do to keep on living. Myself (IRL or in game) If I know that the strangling device is not metal and I have a knife/dagger handy (in hand or any one of the nifty sheaths) Then I am perfectly willing do dig said dagger a few inches into the muscle of my neck to cut that cord then turn around and gouge out my attackers eyes then bite off all his fingers and leave him that way.

10-15 seconds is a long LONG time when fighting, IRL most of my fights have lasted less then a minute, though they all seemed like they took much longer.

X-D, who is in full agreement with creeper on this point, the usefulness would be to limited I think to bother with using, let alone coding.

[Pungee]

The power of the GDB can be used for good. If all of us wouldn't have had different ideas the skill would have been submitted in a drastically different (and possibly less pleasing) form. Hopefully it gets implimented, Jolly Green.  I think it would add a lot to the game.  

[Garrottes]

Ok, well, a Garrotte would be made out of Sinew not cloth or silk.
Why? When dried Sinew is very tough, thin etc, cloth and silk are made out of tiny thin threads, and to make a Garrotte thin enough out of cloth it would break very easy.

Sinew can also strech, and thats what you want, you want Garrotte to stetch on the skin, so it pulls the skin and muscles, causing a greater chance on stopping air and blood.


Realisticly, Garrotte would need to be a skill on its own maybe even to each class with diffrent skill percentages rogues get a higher percentage then say a merchant.

Way i see it is like this

- Strangle *target*

You sneak up behind your target and slip your Garrotte around there neck!

usual delay, Target gets a flee attempt

then, add a tighten Garrotte command

- Tighten Garrotte
You pull the Garrotte tighter - or somthing
Target gets a flee attempt, if they fail, loose half there stun

then, another tighten garrotte,
PC gets one last attempt to flee, if not, they black out.

This would allow RP to happen

The muscular rebel says, Pulling the kank sinew Garrotte tighter around the tall black-robed templar, in fiddlish, "Back off you highlord bum sniffers or by Drov im going to kill him!"

The muscular rebel pulls his Garrotte tighter around the tall black-robed templar's neck, he lets out a gerkrkrk sound as he is strangled!


Maybe even allow forced movement like subdue

north (pulling the tall black-robed templar with her, the Garrotte pulling taunt around ~templar's neck)

(Garrotted PC would loose stun from this action)

Escaping would be based off the PC's "Garrotte" skill, (IE the Garrotting PC would need to make three sucessful Garrotte  attempts in order to cause a PC to black out) and since over time someone will know the best way to provent someone from escaping. You knock there feet forward, they get off balance, very hard to stand up when your getting strangled, also very easy to get pulled along etc.

[..]

A fourth "tighten Garrotte" would kill the target.

[Lazloth]

Though late, I'd like to say that I fall on the opposite end of this discussion:  if you want a garotte, roleplay it out.

[5 day lifespan]

My suggestion would be that it falls under the sap or backstab skills.  Backstab and sap take stealth into account (I think) and arerolled against opponants DEFENSE, so, IE, YES, a gorget would help, based on how good of protection it afforded.  A bit of sinew with shards of obsidian or glass glued to it would rip through that thin leather collar, but may get stopped cold by a mekkillot gorget.  I think that since the echo for backstab reads "You silently approach your victem" this would be appropriate for garroting as well, and wouldnt require a new skill.

5DL

[Coatlicue]

The only conceivable reason I can see to have a garrotte skill would be to give it to house servants.

You all can figure out why, I'm sure.

[Angela Christine]

The only conceivable reason I can see to have a garrotte skill would be to give it to house servants.

You all can figure out why, I'm sure.

Kinky sex?

AC

[Angela Christine]

My suggestion would be that it falls under the sap or backstab skills.  Backstab and sap take stealth into account (I think) and arerolled against opponants DEFENSE, so, IE, YES, a gorget would help, based on how good of protection it afforded.  A bit of sinew with shards of obsidian or glass glued to it would rip through that thin leather collar, but may get stopped cold by a mekkillot gorget.  I think that since the echo for backstab reads "You silently approach your victem" this would be appropriate for garroting as well, and wouldnt require a new skill.

And since you have to use a stabbing weapon to backstab it would give us amusing new objects to post about in the OOC forum.

>Buy cord
> You pay the sneaky looking merchant 200 coins for a silken cord.

>Assess cord
A sliken cord can be worn on the neck.
A silken cord can be worn on the wrist.
A silken cord can be worn on the ankle
A silken cord can be worn across one's back.
A silken cord would work well for skinning.
A silken cord appears unremarkable to your eyes.

AC

[Coatlicue]

No, silly.

The house servant subguild would get garotte so that when we find Lord Snootypants dead, everyone can oocly make the connection and infer that "The butler did it". The good roleplayers will of course not act on that ooc knowledge, but will find out who did it by ic means.

This is just my view and not at all the opinion of the other imms.