Instrument/Music Code

[Gimfalisette]

Actually I don't see anywhere in the documentation where it states that -all- bards of the circle are required to be proficient with an instrument. Especially when reading through it that different groups specialize in different areas, some of which have nothing to do with instrumental performance. If you can show me documentation saying otherwise, I'd appreciate it.

As mushashi said, the information about what is required to achieve each rank in Poets' Circle is in the clan docs and/or in the bard forums. You will just have to take it from those of us who have played bards of Poets' Circle on this--there are at least 4 posting on this thread. You are also welcome to "look" at the instrument of any bard of Poets' Circle to see what charms are on it; if there is an instrument charm there, then that means the bard has mastered the instrument. If there is no instrument charm there, then I encourage you to ICly ask that bard (assuming your PC knows enough about Tuluki culture to ask) why s/he does not have an instrument charm. (Sometimes the imms are slow or forgetful to give them out, so not having a charm is not an indicator that the bard has not mastered that instrument.)

[jhunter]

And -every- bard of -every- group in the circle is required to be proficient with an instrument?

[Gimfalisette]

Yes, that is what we are saying to you. That is a requirement for every bard of Apprentice rank in the Circle.

[jhunter]

If that's the case, I don't think it makes sense considering that some of the groups of the circle specialize in other areas that have nothing to do with the playing of instruments. It's rather flawed.

At any rate, this change wouldn't affect just bards, as has been stated several times. So they'd start out with a higher skill at -one- instrument. They'd have to icly learn any others and non-bard performers would have to start from scratch wherever they started. There is still no logical reasoning for not having some of those skills coded like most things are coded for everyone else.

I'm done posting in this thread from here on out. I won't be convinced that at least some part of performance ability in a MUD should not be coded and I'm unable to convince those who disagree of otherwise.

[Gimfalisette]

None of the Circles specialize in combat, and yet there is an Arc of Blades which is necessary for advancement. Your logic now seems to be at the point where it just comes back around to "I OOCly dislike bards and I want more reasons to ICly hate on them."

[Gimfalisette]

I can't remember if we talked about this already in the thread, but I might be OK with a coded instrument skill if it led to ways for bards to make money. For example, you're at 50% skill, you go into a tavern and "perform song" (of course, with emotes and whatever) (or have a special stage location like LoD has proposed previously) and you get paid based on your skill. But if there's no actual benefit to the bard PC of the skill, then I totally cannot support it. It is already hard and unrewarding enough playing a bard.

And, if there was a coded instrument skill, then I think any failure messages would need to be mediated by the instrument skill of the listener. If you have 0% skill and I have 50%, you are not going to notice any mistakes I do make.

[Is Friday]

Not to sound like a twink, but if instruments had a code-base... I'd be all over playing a bard-type. I'm consider myself primarily a code-player.

[jcljules]

Also, I don't generally judge bards based on their 'voices' or 'playing,' because both of those things don't really matter in a text-based environment. I like to see bards use them, but only as 'dressing.' Want to know how I judge bards? I judge them based on the content of their songs, poems and stories. Cause rhyme, meter and poetry take some out of character skill. And gathering stories to tell takes some in character work. And unlike someone emoting an instrumental performance, I can really appreciate a nice poem or a story.

First,  So you just don't want any instrumental bards in the game?  You want them all to be poetry, historical, or singing only?

Second,  Maybe I'm not understanding you here.  Who is "them"?   Because, when you're dealing with a strictly emoted/ non-skill-based PC  all you have to go on is the emoting ability of the PLAYER 


I would just like someone to explain to me why this as a coded skill is such a bad idea w/o the added arrogance of "anyone who uses a coded skill is a pathetic player who wants nothing more than power-game to build skills"

I didn't say that. Instrumental bards are fine. I find them less interesting than bards who compose poetry and write songs, but they add atmosphere and flavor to the game.

Them is PC bards. And no, you don't have to go on emoting ability, if the song has words.

I think everything I'd use as an argument has already been said. But I'd encourage people advocating for this code to try playing a Tuluki bard in the Circle. For more than like two hours. Or at least actually watch a few PC bards perform.

[musashi]

Not to sound like a twink, but if instruments had a code-base... I'd be all over playing a bard-type. I'm consider myself primarily a code-player.

You don't have to wait!

Arcs of Learning

Bards achieve the status of Master Bard by mastering what are called the Arcs of Learning. Each Arc represents a basic area of knowledge, and a Master Bard will be skilled in each of the following:

Arc of Music: To master the Arc of Music, a bard must be able to play and create a musical instrument from each of the three major types: percussion, wind, and stringed.
Arc of Song: To master the Arc of Song, a bard must know the standard repertoire of songs, as well as being able to compose an impromptu song on any topic when challenged to do so.
Arc of Words: To master the Arc of Words, a bard must know the standard repertoire of stories, from the humorous to the historical, as well as being able to compose such. They must also have mastered the intricacies of Tuluki ettiquette, the gentle art of diplomacy, and speak at least one language beyond sirihish fluently.
Arc of Acting: To master the Arc of Acting, a bard must know the basics of the theater: performing, costuming, mimicry, make-up, and crowd-control. Traditionally, a bard must have performed a central role in at least one major theatrical performance.
Arc of Lore: To master the Arc of Lore, a bard must know both the history and geography of Zalanthas thoroughly, as well as demonstrate in-depth knowledge of at least one other area of specialized learning, such as herb-lore, a crafting skill, animal-training, etc.
Arc of Blades: To master the Arc of Blades, a bard must demonstrate her or himself competent with at least one weapon.

Bards have to skill grind as well; there are plenty of skills they're required to build up that are coded within the game already as part  their "job".

Besides, even if playing music was coded ... you would still have to deal with all that other stuff that isn't in bold anyway, using just your own wits and the emote feature. Unless folks would like to start complaining next that we need coded skills to represent acting ability, knowledge of geography, etiquette, diplomacy, and song composition.

If that's the case, I don't think it makes sense considering that some of the groups of the circle specialize in other areas that have nothing to do with the playing of instruments. It's rather flawed.

At any rate, this change wouldn't affect just bards, as has been stated several times. So they'd start out with a higher skill at -one- instrument. They'd have to icly learn any others and non-bard performers would have to start from scratch wherever they started. There is still no logical reasoning for not having some of those skills coded like most things are coded for everyone else.

I'm done posting in this thread from here on out. I won't be convinced that at least some part of performance ability in a MUD should not be coded and I'm unable to convince those who disagree of otherwise.

I have to disagree and say that, in my opinion, your logic is bias from the get go and thus ... that's what's flawed. Would it make sense for a Legion/Byn medic to have no combat ability whatsoever because they specalize in an area other than fighting? Of course it wouldn't, because the clan is people'd with soldiers first ... specalized people second. The bards of the Poet's Circle are no different. Bards first, specalized circles second.

Onto more of your apparently flawed logic ... I agree that there is no reason for not having some bard skills coded in game the same way other folks have their skills coded. Now just look up at the top of this post I just made ... I bolded all the parts that are hard coded skills for you for ease of reading. See? We already have lots of hard coded skills for bards, performing just isn't one of them.

Anyway, I won't lie, I am a little relieved you're done posting, I was starting to feel like a biologist trying to explain evolution to a youth earth creationist. It's hard to have a dialouge with someone who admits that they've made up their mind in advance and refuses to consider anything to the contrary no matter what, ever.

Anyway, as has already been said by myself and others, it's not that we're against the idea of coded musical aptitude at its core. It's just that with the way the code functions currently, I think it would be next to impossible to implement a music code that wasn't lame ... like our crafting code. For all the work that would be required to do coded music right, I think suggesting ideas for it in the Reborn forum would be a better bet. For now, folks who actually play bards seem happy enough just role-playing their performances out instead of relying on code to support them; and folks who hate bards ... well, they're going to keep hating them no matter how much code they do or don't have.

[benegesseritwitch]

Sorry to resurrect an ancient thread, but I have a question. If none of the bard-specific aspects are coded (music, performance, etc.) then why choose the Bard subguild at all? What's to stop someone from picking something else, and roleplaying as a Bard anyway? (This is not meant as a dig to the subguild, just an honest question.)

[Marauder Moe]

Because it has some useful social skills.

However, indeed you don't need it to be a bard.

[Maso]

You can also pick the bard subguild and not be a bard.

[benegesseritwitch]

Why would someone do that?

[Maso]

Usually because the skills suit whatever role they have in mind. What you can 'be' in Arm, is more diverse than the actual guilds and sub-guilds available. Though, looking at the bard description, it is a little harder to figure out than most of them, and could mislead a (newer) player into thinking that there were actual coded musical abilities.

[Marauder Moe]

Guilds and subguilds are just a collection of skills and don't really impose any expectations regarding your roleplaying.  The names of guilds and subguilds are mostly for our benefit so we can make sense of them.  Your character, however, doesn't know he has a guild or subguild.  At most, he knows he's good at some things and terrible at others.

[Cind]

No.

I NEED to be able to have my Amos learn to play the drums in four RL days and for Talia to not be able to master it until two game months and for Mal to never really get beyond the 'upper-okay' plateau, although she's been playing for three years.

This code change would take away from my roleplay and I do not like it.

[RogueGunslinger]

Meh. I see no reason why we can't have our cake and eat it too. Why cant there be a coded musical skill that people could just ignore if they didn't want to use, and simply roleplay out. But was also there for those who want to feel their character progress in something that they don't have exact control over.

[Marauder Moe]

I once proposed a virtual skill system where people could make up their own skills.

[RogueGunslinger]

Hmmm. Seems they didn't think of the cake analogy either.

[Marauder Moe]

Yeah, I don't know why you'd object to a system that was both completely invisible and optional.

[FantasyWriter]

I really like it.

[kayza]

From what I have seen from bards in Arm they mirror the real world counterpart
Being a successful one has little to do with "skill"
Sure it helps but only somewhat.
So some no name comes along emoting they are better than the better known bard around town, big deal.
Sounds like an excellent reason to hire an assassins who is dying to kill someone(90% of tuluk players)

It seems like a lot of code to prevent something that isn't really a problem because of the above point.

Excellent emoters have a benefit in every social aspect of this game not just music.
I bet they even attract Templars to torture them!
I will never have that problem so I am safe.

[Beethoven]

I had a Clerk in the AoD who was learning to play the lute as a hobby. He sucked, as he didn't know anything about music. I was going to have him slowly improve, but he died before he got that much better. It seemed that some people assumed that he was just naturally horrible and tone-deaf and a pain in the eardrums, but in fact he was just a pure beginner.

It was kind of funny, because I have OOCly been a musician for about 19 years. But yeah. I didn't need anything coded, personally. I liked the freedom that it gave to have this one 'skill' of his be purely RP. Plus you can take into account that a person who was trained from youth would have a much easier time and be able to become more advanced than someone who learned when he/she was older--something you can't really express codedly.

[Lizzie]

Meh. I see no reason why we can't have our cake and eat it too. Why cant there be a coded musical skill that people could just ignore if they didn't want to use, and simply roleplay out. But was also there for those who want to feel their character progress in something that they don't have exact control over.

Substitute "coded musical skill" with "coded combat skill" and you'll have your answer.

In short: This isn't a mush.

[Marauder Moe]

That might be a valid argument if we currently had a coded music skill... but as we don't, it doesn't make a lot of sense, Lizzie.