Casual Game Play

[LoD]

I'll try to avoid derailing here, but I do want to address  LoD's argument. I'm not saying that skill-based roleplay is inherently bad. Yes, having to practice to get good is a more than reasonable expectation, and I'm quite proud of how well I do with roleplaying in skill-spam situations. My issue is that there is too much of it, and after a certain point, it becomes a chore oocly, especially since - let's say in sparring, I'll be the only one who bothers to try and create narratives and combat emotes. With casters it's even worse. Hours upon hours of mindlessly repeating spells while trying desperately to think of new, exciting ways to think/feel/emote so that it's not complete monotony.

I am definitely not against revisions of the skill code that improve the way skills are learned, but I wanted to attach value to the process of skill training since so many people seem to feel it's unnecessary or prohibitive.  My answer is that it's purposeful and, while there are always ways to make improvements, solutions that don't take this into account are probably the ones people react to most strongly in a negative fashion.

If you don't like the skill-spam, you are effectively not allowed to play a competent gemmer. Incompetent ones can be fine, but why am I being barred from a character role because I'd prefer to spend my time RPing with others?

Many of the opinions from people saying, "The game is just fine." would likely ask, "If you know that your play-time will be limited, why are you attempting to manage a character role that depends upon coded success in order to be fun, entertaining, or rewarding?"  I think the answer is that the type of roles that don't require coded success are fun sometimes, but in the same way that playing a warrior over and over and over again, you begin to want a change of pace and find the alternatives lacking.

Diminishing returns would totally fix this, and to tie this back into relevance in the thread - it'd also mean that less frequent players could enjoy a role that uses skills. Play your Bynner, spar less, but not be a liability on contract. Those who play eight hours a day could spend the free time doing something else - and we all win.

I could get behind a skill system that allows for a quick jump to mediocrity, but a much slower progression toward becoming expert.  I just wanted to make sure that any proposed system takes into account the other factors associated with skill gain that have a very real impact on the rest of the players and the general play of Armageddon.

You know what I hate about this sentiment here, LoD? It's the implication that those of us who don't enjoy the skill grind are deficient somehow. But hey, guess what, I'm not deficient, or immature, or a powergamer, nor do I want an "easier" game, nor do I want to get an "unfair advantage" over other players.

This general attitude amongst the playerbase, quite honestly, makes me wonder why I bother trying. For once, I would just like to have it assumed that I (and other players who want changes) have the best interests of the whole game and all its players at heart.

I wasn't meaning to imply that you are somehow deficient, but that there are a wealth of factors to consider when tossing around ideas related to skill gain and playing concepts.  I was further attempting to emphasize that coded skill and enjoyable roles are not mutually exclusive, and that tailoring our expectations and role concepts can help deal with the disparity we find between a beginning character's coded ability and that of a role we've envisioned.  Further, if you label me as having this "general attitude" you apply to others, I'm not sure what you're doing either -- because I started this thread on how to improve the life of the casual gamer, and have been defending the place of the casual player in Armageddon along with making several suggestions.

Can't we both have the best interests of the whole game in mind and still disagree on the best method to achieve that goal?  Surely the fact that we might disagree on one subject or another doesn't mean one of us has an "attitude".

-LoD

[spawnloser]

If you don't like the skill-spam, you are effectively not allowed to play a competent gemmer. Incompetent ones can be fine, but why am I being barred from a character role because I'd prefer to spend my time RPing with others?

Without using skills you can't be skilled???  I never knew that!  (Ahem.  /end sarcasm.)

Without using skills you can't be a competent hunter, guard, mercenary, thief, merchant... and the list goes on.  Why do you single out gemmers?  What about those Bynners and guards with all their sparring?  That isn't skill spam, but casting a few spells is?  Come on.

The REAL issue is enjoyment.  Must you play a skilled character to enjoy the game?  Most aides, the only skills they use is contact, maybe barrier, and listen and scan if they got them.  Heck, you could play an incompetent guard/soldier/hunter and still enjoy it.  YOU are defining what must be part of your character for you to enjoy it.  Change that definition and you're good to go.

[brytta.leofa]

YOU are defining what must be part of your character for you to enjoy it.  Change that definition and you're good to go.

Fully parsed out: "Start enjoying things you don't enjoy."

(Since I have enjoyed playing Arm, and haven't ever played a particularly formidable character, I can safely say that skills aren't a huge issue for me.  It's just that I so enjoy snarking at spawnloser.)

[spawnloser]

Grow up and flame elsewhere.  Strawman elsewhere too for that matter.

If you can NOT find enjoyment in an unskilled character, I maintain that indeed, you are a twink.  There are so many possibilities that you should be able to find something.  If you can't, your focus is too much on winning.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

If you can NOT find enjoyment in an unskilled character, I maintain that indeed, you are a twink.  There are so many possibilities that you should be able to find something.  If you can't, your focus is too much on winning.

I just can't agree with this. Even more so, I can't agree that someone is a twink because of this. That really sounds far out. Real roleplayers might as well play a mush, as far as you seem to imply.

[Greve]

Here's a few things SoI has done to prevent the excessive emphasis on available playtime:

Practice crafts and sparring NPCs; Practice crafts allow you to gain a bit of skill by yourself. It is not available for all skills, mostly combat ones, and does not reward the character as much as actual usage of the skill. Sparring NPCs exist in most soldier-type clans, being simply an NPC with a sparring weapon and a simple script for the clanned player to manually end the fight when finished. Both of these serve the dual purpose of allowing people with less playtimes the ability to always do something productive (regarding combat training, at least) and to lessen the disadvantage of being off-peak or in a low-activity clan. A helpful side effect is that it actually enforces the notion that trained soldiers are more martially skilled than part-time hunters and alleyway muggers whereas Armageddon characters are often the other way around due to many such clans having very few players.

OOC timers: On SoI, most coded activities are craft-based, and anything which is significantly profitable, or should realistically take a long time to do, is limited by a global OOC timer. Crafting something valuable invokes this timer, preventing the character from performing any craft with an OOC timer for x hours (which ticks while offline as well), the length depending on the craft. This again serves the dual purpose of mitigating the disadvantage of those who can't play multiple hours a day, and limiting the temptation to constantly toil for profits or take to unrealistic amounts of coded activities. It is also simply a more strict enforcement of realism which I feel Armageddon could benefit from, and it may even decrese the triviality of our economy.

Roles: A wide range of roles exist on SoI, most of which would not be applicable to Arm. Available at character creation, they allow the character to enter the game in a pre-determined role such as Private in Clan X or Apprentice to Merchant Y. The more interesting thing is that a few roles allow you to simply start as a more accomplished person in whatever career you've chosen, from crafting to combat. Since these roles cost an amount of RPP (karma) depending on the clan rank, skill boosts or material bonus granted, the players who take them have presumably proven that they are worthy of it. Likewise, someone who has earned the karma to play a magicker or half-giant would surely be trusted to start a combatant or crafter with the skill level equivalent of having played the character for a month or two. This would relieve anyone, and casual players in particular, from having to spend an excessive amount of time in that early stage of utter uselesness where your character just can't do anything right.

[Lizzie]

Grow up and flame elsewhere.  Strawman elsewhere too for that matter.

If you can NOT find enjoyment in an unskilled character, I maintain that indeed, you are a twink.  There are so many possibilities that you should be able to find something.  If you can't, your focus is too much on winning.

And if you can NOT post without calling someone a twink just because their idea of fun is not the same as yours, you are a flamer.

Grow up and flame elsewhere.

[Dakurus]

Tone down the labeling, and extremism please. This thread isn't nearly as contentious as it appears. Read your posts carefully, if you have a point make it, but make it politely. If you feel that it's your nature to be nasty, snarky, mean, vindictive, or other such things, or you just can't pass up the opportunity, or you believe free speech means being an ass, or other such arguments, then restrain yourself, or I'll be happy to show you what I believe. This also goes for reading others posts. Don't read into them direction, insult, and predisposition because of stance or previous interaction and respond accordingly. It's a discussion.

[musashi]

I have to agree with spawnloser's point, in that it isn't just gemmers who have to go through the grind to improve their skill sets. I personally think that magick classes have it EASY when it comes to grinding, but won't go into why because I wouldn't want to inadvertantly pass out information about the magick system that staff want to keep behind the scenes.

Suffice to say though, that I think rangers, and merchants for example, have a much much tougher grind ahead of them than any magick user would, because a lot of their skills are contingent on things like having materials, being able to to find game, the weather ... and the list goes on.

In fact a lot of threads on the GDB would imply that most folks believe magick users advance too quickly ... making them a preferred choice for folks who don't like to spam overly much to improve their skill, in my opinion.

But all of that is sort of beside the point of the discussion I think. Anyway, I don't think brytta.leofa was actually attacking you spawnloser, no need to get riled up.

[Good Gortok]

If you can NOT find enjoyment in an unskilled character, I maintain that indeed, you are a twink.  There are so many possibilities that you should be able to find something.  If you can't, your focus is too much on winning.

There's a significant difference between being able to find enjoyment in an unskilled character and being willing to accept it as your simple fate for every character you play, as is often the case for casual players. Most people will be happy to occasionally play a character with little focus on skills. Most people also acknowledge that skills are not only a requirment for the vast majority of what this game has to offer, but also has a direct and undeniable influence on how readily other players will "invite" you into the more interesting aspects of the game.

Your opinions and attitude make you easy to dislike. If this is not your goal, you might try to be less judgmental and more open-minded to the idea that not everyone plays the game the exact way you do it. It doesn't make them twinks.

[Gimfalisette]

Logically speaking, the less a player can rely for fun on plot involvement, interactive RP with other PCs, and all that sort of thing which we all necessarily acknowledge a casual player will have less access to...

the more a player will have to rely for fun on skills.

Else, I'm not sure how we're suggesting fun is to be obtained--if not through plot involvement, PC interaction, and skill development. Though, one other player was kind enough to send me a PM about how they achieved their personal version of fun through a PC who mostly idled.

[Northlander]

This is by and large a wonderful thread, and I recognise much of it from a GMT player's perspective.

While some of us consider whether one is logged in or not to be an OOC phenomenon, if one's PC or immortal superior holds another opinion then the character will suffer ICly as a result. Well, they will suffer anyhow: their skills willl not budge, their social standing will take a tumble along with their likelihood of ever garnering a promotion. This feels unfair to the character: "why should the character suffer just because I rarely log on?" It'd be good for my suspension of disbelief, and perhaps also for other casual players' appreciation of the game, to have an explanation to this. It seems our characters are right dull vPCs, mostly sitting around in a corner until the player descends to inhabit them. Time logged out is not worth a tenth as much as time logged in.

Perhaps we should OOC "I haven't seen you around much. Has your character been working hard or slacking off?" as well as e-mail our clan imms before counting out the monthly pay. Perhaps we should pay for virtual work in virtual coin.

Also, all our little economies might be a contributing factor to the casuals' woes. When leader PC:s have to pay themselves and their employees from a set amount of money which only grows with their own and their employees' efforts, it might make sense for the leader PC's player to employ characters with very active players. Another contributing factor could be ceilings on the number of PCs one clan can have employed. The sponsored roles themselves might be overly restricted as well. I wouldn't mind a few leaders with very sporadic playing times as long as the goal would be to have another leader around with more regular ones. I'd think that more widely opening up sponsored roles for more casual players could provide that segment with the high status roles which they're otherwise without an opportunity to play.

[brytta.leofa]

If you can NOT find enjoyment in an unskilled character, I maintain that indeed, you are a twink.  There are so many possibilities that you should be able to find something.  If you can't, your focus is too much on winning.

The way I really take this, spawn, is that you, as a player, aren't that interested in what your characters accomplish over time.  You (perhaps) tend to play more moment-by-moment than with a particular goal.  It's the difference between "I'm a Byn runner" and "I'm training to become a trooper."

Because skills are a vital component of how things are actually accomplished in Arm.  If you don't find skills essential, it's probably because you're not very concerned with shaping out a particular story arc for your character.  That's a good way to play, but it's not the only way.  Preferences schmeferences.

[spawnloser]

And if you can NOT post without calling someone a twink just because their idea of fun is not the same as yours, you are a flamer.

That's not what I did.  I said that if you MUST play the game one way, your way, perhaps you need to expand your idea of what it is to play a game like this one.

Logically speaking, the less a player can rely for fun on plot involvement, interactive RP with other PCs, and all that sort of thing which we all necessarily acknowledge a casual player will have less access to...

the more a player will have to rely for fun on skills.

Why do you think a character that plays less than others can't interact with others while logged in?  I personally don't have any problems interacting with other characters that I rarely see.  Remember, there's a difference between interacting and making close friends.

The way I really take this, spawn, is that you, as a player, aren't that interested in what your characters accomplish over time.  You (perhaps) tend to play more moment-by-moment than with a particular goal.  It's the difference between "I'm a Byn runner" and "I'm training to become a trooper."

Because skills are a vital component of how things are actually accomplished in Arm.  If you don't find skills essential, it's probably because you're not very concerned with shaping out a particular story arc for your character.  That's a good way to play, but it's not the only way.  Preferences schmeferences.

Actually, you're confusing player goals for the character and character goals for the character.

[brytta.leofa]

Actually, you're confusing player goals for the character and character goals for the character.

My simile was ill-considered.  But I'm saying that if a player's goal is to accomplish character goals, his PC will eventually have to become a competent goalie.

[Marc]

Love the 'help wanted' idea from SoI.  Keep the powerful roles the way they are, but start recruiting for the grunts and peons through OOC means.  Being in a populated clan can mean all the difference for meaningful interaction and for those without a ton of time, being able to hop right in would be very welcome.  I'd think even more hardcore players would welcome it.  Is there a downside?

As for skills... eek.  How can you fix a broken system without tearing it out?  Some skills have timers, some do not.  Some skills have timers and chance based gains.  Some skills have timers which are multiples of other timers.  These were added to prevent people from power gaming their skills up in hours.  I could be wrong (probably am) but I was under the impression that the timer was based off of the time-played clock, not an independent clock.  In other words, if you're not logged in for X amount of time, your slashing weapon skill will not improve.  That means you won't have a talented warrior until you hit the 50+ day mark.

Can we switch that timer to a real world clock?  That way if you only play a few hours a week, your skill gain wont be truncated simply because you are not breaching the timer threshold.  Over all this would probably increase everyones skill gains, but the addicts wouldn't see much more and the casual player would see a great difference.

As a small derail: these timers are totally flocked.  Some skills you can branch in, literally, 15 minutes.  Others take thousands of hours.  Some sort of parity needs to be found between combat and utility skills.

[Vessol]

Love this thread and love the ideas in it.

Would love to play Armageddon again if I didn't have to play for 5+ hours a day to do anything..

[aruna]

Logically speaking, the less a player can rely for fun on plot involvement, interactive RP with other PCs, and all that sort of thing which we all necessarily acknowledge a casual player will have less access to...

the more a player will have to rely for fun on skills.

Why do you think a character that plays less than others can't interact with others while logged in?  I personally don't have any problems interacting with other characters that I rarely see.  Remember, there's a difference between interacting and making close friends.

I have the most fun in Armageddon when my PCs have more than superficial relationships with other PCs, and I know I'm not the only one. Achieving this takes more than simply interaction - it usually takes prolonged, sustained interaction. This is really hard for casual players to maintain, for the same reasons it's hard to get involved and stay involved in plots. I don't know if this is what Gimf meant by 'interactive RP,' but I have a feeling it is. I don't think she means idle chit-chat at the bar, which yes, I think all of us here are capable of.

[Salt Merchant]

I believe it's possible to build up a social network and a character's skills playing an hour a day. If the player logs in at a regular time.

If someone is only logging in semi-randomly or once a week, even if it's for a few hours, well, what can you do. Whole batches of characters will die and new ones appear in that time.

[jcljules]

I believe it's possible to build up a social network and a character's skills playing an hour a day. If the player logs in at a regular time.

If someone is only logging in semi-randomly or once a week, even if it's for a few hours, well, what can you do. Whole batches of characters will die and new ones appear in that time.

Just choose a few people to focus on and try to make them your PCs contacts. Befriend PCs who play for twelve hours a day and use them for staying up to date/getting invited to things/etc;

[Gimfalisette]

I have the most fun in Armageddon when my PCs have more than superficial relationships with other PCs, and I know I'm not the only one. Achieving this takes more than simply interaction - it usually takes prolonged, sustained interaction. This is really hard for casual players to maintain, for the same reasons it's hard to get involved and stay involved in plots. I don't know if this is what Gimf meant by 'interactive RP,' but I have a feeling it is. I don't think she means idle chit-chat at the bar, which yes, I think all of us here are capable of.

Yep, you got it. My point was that, when I do not have the time or opportunity to engage in my preferred playstyle--which is deeply-involved interpersonal RP and plot stuff--then I'm fully capable of enjoying an alternate playstyle which is more skill- and achievement-focused. But that's the thing--as a casual player, I've got to be able to find fun somewhere. And right now, it is highly difficult for casual players to find fun anywhere, because there are barriers to short-time play throughout ARM.

[staggerlee]

I have the most fun in Armageddon when my PCs have more than superficial relationships with other PCs, and I know I'm not the only one. Achieving this takes more than simply interaction - it usually takes prolonged, sustained interaction. This is really hard for casual players to maintain, for the same reasons it's hard to get involved and stay involved in plots. I don't know if this is what Gimf meant by 'interactive RP,' but I have a feeling it is. I don't think she means idle chit-chat at the bar, which yes, I think all of us here are capable of.

Yep, you got it. My point was that, when I do not have the time or opportunity to engage in my preferred playstyle--which is deeply-involved interpersonal RP and plot stuff--then I'm fully capable of enjoying an alternate playstyle which is more skill- and achievement-focused. But that's the thing--as a casual player, I've got to be able to find fun somewhere. And right now, it is highly difficult for casual players to find fun anywhere, because there are barriers to short-time play throughout ARM.

This is the issue.
I don't think that casual play offers many working playstyles at all. I don't require constant interaction, plot involvement or coded awesomeness... but one does need something to hold their interest. One shot flavor characters don't always fill that void, they often feel like flat parodies. If you do succeed as a casual and start to get involved, the game begins to pressure you to play more.

Synthesizing a lot of the ideas presented: I'd like to see staff sponsored roles with heavy restrictions placed on the player, that put you in a position where you can have fun.

An example: Staff sponsor a Tor Academy trainer. You get skills and stats, but you must follow the Tor documents, support the clan and be a positive influence on it. You're not to leave the Academy unless absolutely necessary. The staff will set you up with the documentation and anything else necessary to the role - your job is to work with trainees, rp with everyone in the clan, brainstorm ways to improve the clan and anything else you can do. You bring the clan to life and help support the noble. You're also encouraged to use the forums to coordinate and to help work with players there and spiff up the clan's documentation.

...I would take a role like that, even knowing I could only play twice a week. It'd be fun, and I'd be able to give back to the game and feel important! Even better, these roles might make the game into more of a roleplaying game and less of a competitive arena! They can flesh out the parts of the games that more regular players find too restrictive or boring!  


Before everyone tells me that I can already do things like that... I can't. Not with any ease. And for a player with limited playtime, if the challenge is to even get into the game, we're just as likely to go do something else.

[staggerlee]

Let me state that again, for good measure: Casual players can fill roles that are too restrictive for more regular players.^* And they can have fun with them.

^*Although an intensive regime of bran supplements can make even the most casual player regular.

[Comrade Canadia]

I'll stop rabbiting about diminishing returns and jump on this bandwagon. Casual roles for good roleplayers who really wanna just commit a few hours a week would do the game an obscene amount of good.

[LoD]

It would seem logical to me that repetition, consistency, and a focus on maximizing the chance of repeated interaction would be a good recipe for the off-peak or casual player.  As others have mentioned, having a consistent login time would certainly help improve the chances of bumping into the same characters more than once, as they would know both when and where to find your PC if needed.

Some PC's require lengthy stints of interaction in order to create those deep relationships, but I could see a string of chance encounters developing into a long-lasting relationship/friendship, even to the point where if you outlive their PC's, they may find themselves coming back to you simply because you're more consistent than the other flash-in-the-pan characters that filter through the area.

What I might do in such a situation is:

• Select a high-traffic location (street, tavern, tailor, bank, shop, gate) in which to "set up shop".
• Select a career that encourages interaction with players.
• Try to keep set "hours" for my service and maintain a sense of consistency so players know where and when to find me.

Examples of the types of jobs that might work would be:

Tracker/Skinner for Hire
Location: Main Gate
Guild/Subclass: Ranger/Hunter

Having practiced the art of tracking animals, you offer services to other hunters or groups of hunters to help them track down their prey; beast or otherwise.  You may not always be available, and you're not offering a capable swordarm or even a steady bow, just some help with finding animal trails to improve the haul of skinned goods.  Any non-ranger would likely love to have you at their disposal for a daily hunt.

General Crafter
Location: Market or Main Gate
Guild/Subclass: Merchant/General Crafter

Unwilling or unable to leave the city, you've set up a small tent or rug somewhere in a high-traffic location (e.g. main gate, stables, outside a shop) where you're willing to buy natural resources from hunter/gatherers for slightly better costs than the surrounding shops.  Using those pieces to fuel your own crafts, you can then begin to further your operation and your offerings while you sit and talk with the hunters, gossip about the weather, and perhaps learn a secret or two.

Bodyguard
Location: Tavern
Guild/Subclass: Warrior/Guard

Enjoying your ale, you know well that people require protection from time to time.  Perhaps they want a little extra muscle for a meeting they plan to attend, a back alley deal going down, or for a quick trip to another city.  They may not have the coin to hire a group of professionals, but it might be enough for you.  You may not be the most skilled, but sometimes just having another warm body is enough of a deterrent.

Apothecary
Location: Tavern
Guild/Subclass: Assassin/Physician

Knowing your general way around different types of plants and animal parts, you may be able to offer your services to hunters, bodyguards, and caravan teams that may want a few herbal remedies for the road.  Internal resources are not always available, but it might be nice to know where and when you can find someone willing to make you some remedies before a big hunt or long trek.

Interpreter/Cultural Advisor
Location: Tavern, Market, Gate
Guild/Subclass: Merchant/Linguist

There may be plenty of times when merchants have need of someone who can speak the tongue of the elves or dwarves, especially when they mean to meet them on their terms.  Having someone who understand the subtle nuances of their phrasing and the culture of their people would be a boon toward making a successful deal.  And knowing where to find someone who would be able to help them accomplish those tasks might be a boon indeed.

Enhancement Skills

Writing those following jobs got me thinking that another good niche that could be create for casual players would be in the area of enhancement skills.  These are not really part of the current game, but I could see them being a very useful resource that players would frequently seek out, not once, but many times.

Enhancements could be made to weapons, armor, or even mounts.

> Modifying weapons to do slightly better damage, leather wrist-loops to avoid being disarmed, reinforcements to avoid breaking
> Modifying armor with spikes that may do damage during battle, reinforcing sections to be heavier, but more protective, etc...
> Modifying mounts to be able to travel more easily across harsh landscapes, lose less stamina, or better resist the heat.

I could see these types of things being highly valuable to PC's and create a very real working economy that has repeat value as people purchase new armor, weapons, and other tools.  It would also allow people to customize their items to better fit the role they are trying to play.  And I could see these types of enhancements being something valuable that a casual player could slowly develop over time and become a valuable part of the city/settlement.

-LoD