Request for Feedback: Trample

[Spice Spice Baby]

Haven't used the skill yet, but in theory, I think Synthesis' first suggestion would help.

[X-D]

Slightly off topic, but I'm all for weapons or skills that can unseat a rider...Bil hooks anyone?

[Synthesis]

Slightly off topic, but I'm all for weapons or skills that can unseat a rider...Bil hooks anyone?

Sounds like a great added bonus for pike and polearm weapons.

[musashi]

It sounds like a cool idea to me too but, I think it would need to be quite well thought out in terms of code implementation so that it didn't completely destroy what meager combat bonuses mounted riders have only just now received.

[Twilight]

Actually, I think that destroying those kinds of bonuses would be exactly what was intended.  With a specific type of weapon that a limited number of people can use.

[X-D]

Correct.

I love rangers and everything they get. But a ranger of equal time to a warrior should never be on equal footing with that warrior in melee, let alone have an advantage.

I guess the biggest problem I have with charge and trample is that they make no distinction between animal and humanoid. Animals should be easier to trample and charge, they really cannot plan ahead or think abstract.

Thinking beings on the other hand can. I mean really, avoiding a trample should be pretty easy by simply keeping to the side and a bit behind that giant 3 ton lizard.

And the fact that being mounted makes you immune to certain things and there is no way to unseat? Come on now.

[jmordetsky]

Further, I think a failed trample should hit one random attacker.

I like this idea.

Doesn't work if all attackers are mounted, which would be the problematic scenario in the first place.

Unless you can collide mounts and knock each other off.

Bumper kanks!

That is a pretty cool idea as well.

[spawnloser]

I love rangers and everything they get. But a ranger of equal time to a warrior should never be on equal footing with that warrior in melee, let alone have an advantage.

+1

[brytta.leofa]

What about making trample less paralyzing?  Keep the victim down for a while, but allow things like "draw" that give him half a fighting chance.

[musashi]

I thought that warriors already had a command that let them unseat a mounted character, but now that I think about it ... I'm thinking of carru ... and their way of doing said command is obviously different from a warrior's.

I think maybe a modification to bash to give it the ability to knock a mounted rider off their mount would be a good way to work it in perhaps, but I'd like the rider's skill taken into account as well.

And making it so long spear and halberd type two handed weapons could overcome that rider's combat bonuses and the standing person's penalties due to their reach would be nice also.

[brytta.leofa]

I think maybe a modification to bash to give it the ability to knock a mounted rider off their mount would be a good way to work it in perhaps, but I'd like the rider's skill taken into account as well.

That makes sense, especially with an appropriate weapon, but it would remove one of the major advantages of fighting mounted.

[Majikal]

I love rangers and everything they get. But a ranger of equal time to a warrior should never be on equal footing with that warrior in melee, let alone have an advantage.

[musashi]

I love rangers and everything they get. But a ranger of equal time to a warrior should never be on equal footing with that warrior in melee, let alone have an advantage.

I agree basically but ... I feel that a ranger should have more riding expertise than a warrior as well. So when we're talking about a mounted ranger vs. a warrior on foot I feel like the ranger should be able to get away with not being easily WTFpwned.

I don't know that I'd want them completely even in that circumstance, but at least a good 60/40, if that makes sense.

[spawnloser]

No, the ranger should be able to survive the warrior but should never be able to hold his own.  Warriors kick ass.  I'm actually VERY disappointed that rangers have as much mounted stuff as they do.  Let's see, they already have perception and stealth and archery and all the other skills they get.  Warriors get combat skills.  Rangers are already powerful enough.  A ranger shouldn't be able to get on a big mount at one day and kill a 20+ day combat-oriented character.  I've seen it happen.  (Before anyone responds to this, this change hopefully fixes that, but I haven't had any experience with it since.)  Rangers SHOULD be killing people with an arrow or three from maximum range before the victim ever gets close to the ranger.  A warrior should own everyone in the same room as them in a straight up fight.  Assassins should be killing everyone that doesn't see them coming.  That's how it works.  Don't change that balance.

[shadeoux]

Make it impossible to trample someone who's fighting someone else.

There's not enough space for you to maneuver your mount in!

didn't go over the entire thread so not sure if this was said, but if someones locked in combat with another person and third person uses trample, have it have a chance to hit BOTH combatants imo.

[brytta.leofa]

A warrior should own everyone in the same room as them in a straight up fight.

Absolutely, but being dismounted versus a skilled, mounted opponent should be a disadvantage.  Rangers, out of the box, come pretty close to having a useful level of skill on the riding side, but my feeling is that they lag warriors by about 10 days in terms of raw combat skill.  (Probably the gap widens as you get into Crazy Playtime Land.)

If you started a warrior and a ranger with similar stats at the same time and trained them equally, my guess is that the ranger might have a brief period of time (around day 5 or so?) in which he's able to own the warrior, because he's branched charge/trample and the warrior's either still getting thrown off in combat or is restricted to a single weapon.

That toe-to-toe advantage (if it works out that there is one) will disappear as soon as the warrior gets good enough at riding to fight mounted, with two weapons and without getting thrown.

[Synthesis]

Trust me, there ain't no ranger that can pwn a warrior of equal playing days (and training) in straight-up (no trickery) melee, as long as that warrior stays on his mount.

Better weapon skills + better parry + better shield use/dual wield/two handed + disarm = win.

[X-D]

Better weapon skills + better parry + better shield use/dual wield/two handed + disarm = win.

Um...about half of that line is incorrect. Sorry, but since indepth code mechanics are not suppose to be talked about, that is all I can say on the matter. Other then, do to other mounted bonuses and negs the ranger of equal time would actually have a slight advantage...assuming the warrior stayed mounted.

[Riev]

Trust me, there ain't no ranger that can pwn a warrior of equal playing days (and training) in straight-up (no trickery) melee, as long as that warrior stays on his mount.

Well... the part I don't like is..

as long as that warrior stays on his mount.

There are a few Warrior-guild skills that are completely useless when mounted. If you take a maximum-skill warrior vs a maximum-skill Ranger, -maybe- this suggestion is correct. However, as someone that -has- branched a weapon skill on a warrior-guild before, I can say that it takes way too much time to get to that point, and it has no guarantee that you are going to beat a Ranger while mounted.

Rangers are -built- to be sneaky, firing off arrows in the distance, sneaking in close and launching a surprise-attack on an unsuspecting enemy that is -already- engaged. They are built for ranged combat, and now are built for mounted melee combat. This means the only place a Warrior has the -real- edge in combat (all things considered relatively equal) against Rangers is indoors.



Topic-related: I have no problem with skills like trample and charge. I really don't. I have confidence that things will be balanced soon enough, but I am still for the ability for someone to knock the rider off a mount. If you attack the horse someone is riding on, it will often throw the rider, but in Arm, the mount then attacks you and you get all -kinds- of negatives to your skill for it. Perhaps things like "kick" and "bash" when applied to a mount should have a chance checked by combat skill(by that I mean kick and bash) versus riding skill to dismount the other combatant, -without- engaging the mount in combat?

I imagine it could be rather difficult...

[Fathi]

Morg, it might be helpfil to get a post in Staff Announcements explaining everything the new skills do (and any changes to charge) as well as a brief explanation of what makes them different. There are a few details the trample helpfile seems to not have, such as the fact that you have to be actively engaged in combat to use the skill. I think that'd be a big help to people who didn't read both threads and/or people new to the game.

Other than that, the new skill seems fine to me.

[jhunter]

I love rangers and everything they get. But a ranger of equal time to a warrior should never be on equal footing with that warrior in melee, let alone have an advantage.

I also wanted to say that I'm all for there being a chance of trampling or unmounting the opponents of the trample target on a failure.

[Krath]

I agree with all of the Above BUT Post Delay for Victim. Keep that in.

[musashi]

I agree with all of the Above BUT Post Delay for Victim. Keep that in.

+1, I think the above suggestions provide more than enough cons to the skill without needing to throw that one in there on top.

[Lizzie]

All of the above, but *reduce* the post-delay for the victim. I wouldn't want to see it removed entirely - if you're a victim of a trample, it -should- take you a second or two to regain your senses/balance/attention span/whatever else you lose when you get trampled or when someone -almost- tramples you. A moment's shock, whether the attacker succeeds or fails..seems reasonable.

[Krath]

All of the above, but *reduce* the post-delay for the victim. I wouldn't want to see it removed entirely - if you're a victim of a trample, it -should- take you a second or two to regain your senses/balance/attention span/whatever else you lose when you get trampled or when someone -almost- tramples you. A moment's shock, whether the attacker succeeds or fails..seems reasonable.

Holy Shit....We agreed!