Request for Feedback: Trample

[Morgenes]

Ok, so we're already seeing issues with trample, namely tag-team abuse of this to the point of paralyzing a target with the skill, even at low levels.  Please comment here with your thoughts and ideas on how to make this less abusable.

Right now the options we see are:

a) remove the post-delay for the victim
b) increase post-delay for the attacker
c) reduce chance of it working based on # of people attacking the victim
d) reduce chance if the victim isn't fighting you
e) all of the above
f) rip trample out

[Synthesis]

Make it impossible to trample someone who's fighting someone else.

There's not enough space for you to maneuver your mount in!

[lingering]

If the issue is with tag-teaming then I would go with a mixture of the options.

I don't know about removing the post delay although being knocked onto the ground is a rather large penalty in of itself.  Perhaps reducing the post-delay for the victim to a very short time frame.  If, let us use some random term of 'heartbeat,' the post-delay is currently five heartbeats I would think one or two at most would be more than enough.

I think the post-delay for the attacker should be significant, especially at low levels, and as the rider becomes more skilled it should be reduced.  The initial post-delay should be as long as whatever is the longest post-delay currently in the game.  If not a bit longer.

I think as more people are on a target then the chance for a successful trample should decrease.  Further, I think a failed trample should hit one random attacker.

I don't think that the chance should be reduced for a victim who isn't fighting you.  Actually, a caveat here, if the victim is already prone (sitting or resting or sleeping) then the trample should work normally.  If the victim is standing then I think the chance to trample should be reduced significantly.  After all, isn't charge supposed to be the opener?

[Majikal]

A or B

[Synthesis]

"target not fighting you" means "the target is attacking someone else, while you are also fighting the target"

It doesn't mean "the target is just standing there fighting nobody."

If only the "tank" can use trample (which makes sense, since the "tank" is presumably the closest to the target, since the target is actively engaging the "tank"), it entirely prevents the tag-teaming problem.

Except for the case where the "tank" flees out while the target is still post-delayed, which allows a second person to take the "tank" position and initiate a second trample, I suppose.  But them would be some highly delicate tactics.

[FantasyWriter]

I voted B but was urging towards all of the above.

I would have definately voted for this, though:

Make it impossible to trample someone who's fighting someone else.

There's not enough space for you to maneuver your mount in!

[Morgenes]

Further, I think a failed trample should hit one random attacker.

I like this idea.

[Synthesis]

Further, I think a failed trample should hit one random attacker.

I like this idea.

Doesn't work if all attackers are mounted, which would be the problematic scenario in the first place.

Unless you can collide mounts and knock each other off.

Bumper kanks!

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Make it impossible to trample someone who's fighting someone else.

There's not enough space for you to maneuver your mount in!

I'd rather see your trample potentially affect anybody fighting the person you trampled. Rather than this stuff about 'impossible', which is a word I absolutely hate, it should be realistic, which means that you can run your animal into that fray, but the bigger it is, the more chance you'll bowl over your buddy too.

So, an erdlue would be the most accurate trampler, though its small size makes it less damaging. An inix would be horribly inaccurate, but its size makes it damaging.

[Twilight]

Make trample like parry.  If you see the opportunity, you trample with your mount, but you don't necessarily get to create that opportunity.  So, a passive skill rather than one where you type in the command.  If the target is knocked down already by a charge, give a bonus to getting a trample in, possibly.

[X-D]

Synths first suggestion.

Only the tank can do it. It makes the most sense anyway. I mean really, mounted verses unmounted means they have to stay close enough together you could almost consider them the same target.

[Kol]

Further, I think a failed trample should hit one random attacker.

I like this idea.

Like? Like? Morgenes...if you implement this, I will personally feed you the brains of my next five PC's........

[Morgenes]

Further, I think a failed trample should hit one random attacker.

I like this idea.

Doesn't work if all attackers are mounted, which would be the problematic scenario in the first place.

Unless you can collide mounts and knock each other off.

Bumper kanks!

That was kinda what I was thinking, chance to fall off.

[Qzzrbl]

I'm tempted to try to tame a carru now.

[Synthesis]

Also: potential problem with only making it "more difficult" to trample when there are multiple attackers.

You can trample, then disengage, which returns the number of attackers to one (the tank), then re-engage with another trample.

This basically means you would have to make the penalty very steep immediately for the first attacker after the tank, otherwise a group of three or more could still "tag-team" a target with trample.  The only difference would be that only one person (the tank) would be continually attacking.  The other two would be trampling and disengaging.

Again, this sounds like tactics...but if it keeps the target "locked," it's kind of lame.

Additional solution:  allow the 'draw,' 'drop,' 'rs,' 'rp,' 'es,' 'ep,' and 'sheathe' commands to be used while you're trample-locked.  This would prevent people from trampling an unarmed opponent and using that delay to prevent them from drawing weapons.

[X-D]

And the change hands command.

[Marc]

Don't stack the trample delay.  Multiple tramples still only keep the person down for X amount of time. Don't allow trample to be targeted i.e can only trample your main combat target.  People will have a chance to flee by stacking a stand and flee.

If you get knocked off your mount and have multiple riders working in tangent to keep you from doing anything, except, maybe, flee, is that really so bad?  Maybe a new room flag is needed to differentiate open and constricted riding rooms, but in open wilderness rooms anything short of an elf shouldn't be running away from a pair or more of highly trained riders (according to the helpfiles for charge and trample) who want to keep them around.

If you have friends you're not so helpless.  Rescue is powerful.  Don't travel alone or get caught by groups of hostile riders.

If there is a chance to knock allies off of their mounts with unsuccessful tramples, that should be completely nullified at higher skill levels.  That's just mickey mouse for highly trained riders.  What's the reasoning for that?
Better would be a failure message with delay stating you tried to get close enough but X got in your way. What highly trained rider is going to lose control of their mount so badly?

What's faster?  An elf or a running inix?
....................................running beetle?
....................................running erdlu?

[Synthesis]

What I'm really starting to wonder is:  how are people so good at trample already that this sort of abuse is obvious?  I haven't managed to get it to work a single time.

[Morgenes]

I've already made a couple of tweaks, some mentioned here, that went live with the latest reboot which will at least put a stop-gap preventing the gang-up issues I was seeing earlier.  I'm still listening/reading this and will take that feedback into account.

So far I've adjusted it so that the more people fighting the target, the harder it is too do.  If this penalty exceeds your skill, you can't manage to get in to trample.

[lingering]

Better would be a failure message with delay stating you tried to get close enough but X got in your way. What highly trained rider is going to lose control of their mount so badly?

Just to address this.

The gold medal winner in dressage (the most difficult and most powerful form of controlled riding around) has had her horse spook / rear / injure himself at competition and during training while she was 'in control.'   Anky van Grunsven is the best dressage rider in the world and she loses control of her horse from time to time.  Very rarely yes but it happens.

In show jumping the best riders in the world regularly get refusals at jumps.  Sometimes their horse will rear up and run around wildly.  Other times the horse will simply leap to the side forcing the best riders in the world to fall off.

I find that a lot of Armageddon players have a belief that riding an animal is just like driving a motorized vehicle in that they will do everything you tell them to do every time so long as you are 'skilled.'  The reality plays out very differently as anyone who has even been around horses will attest to.

While the mounts in Armageddon are a wide variety of creatures the underlying fact is that they are living creatures and will react in undesired manners from time to time even by the best rider in the world.  But, think of it like this, you are trying to aim a multi-ton beast at a single prone target surrounded by other people... if you mess that up you're going to bump / crash / slam / rush into them.  Even if you do it properly you have a serious chance of bumping into those around the person.  

The larger your mount the more chance of bashing into someone I would think.

[Orados]

What kind of saves are there for the trample-ee? Very skilled rodeo riders for example, know exactly what to do when they fall under a horse or bull so they don't get hurt (more often then not).

Also, it would be assumed that a skilled and alert fighter who found themselves suddenly under a mount would have a chance for a direct strike at the mount's underside. Is there a way to implement that kind of thing if it's not already in place?

[musashi]

I've already made a couple of tweaks, some mentioned here, that went live with the latest reboot which will at least put a stop-gap preventing the gang-up issues I was seeing earlier.  I'm still listening/reading this and will take that feedback into account.

So far I've adjusted it so that the more people fighting the target, the harder it is too do.  If this penalty exceeds your skill, you can't manage to get in to trample.

This sounds like a a good fix to the problem to me.

[Old Kank]

I haven't seen trample in action, and I haven't really been following the threads.

Is there now a way to forcefully dismount people that are trying to have you trampled?

[musashi]

Bash? I'm not sure really.

A skill to unseat a rider would be pretty cool though.

[Fnord]

I'm tempted to try to tame a carru now.

You have to name him Yakul.