Burglars, reminder

[spawnloser]

I couldn't find a good thread to post this in so...

Okay, seriously... I think this needs to be said.  People playing Burglars are getting greedy.  Burglars are raiding apartments for EVERYTHING in them.  Not only is this at least a little unrealistic (a crew of people that the landlord doesn't recognize walking out of the building carrying MULTIPLE chests, in at least two examples of recent burglary that I've heard of) but it convinces people not to get apartments.  Eventually, everyone not playing a burglar will be living out of their backpacks because of this sort of behavior.  I know some players have expressed the intent to do so on all future characters, don't convince the rest of us to do the same.

Thank you.

[Thunkkin]

http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,33716.0.html

[titansfan]

Having play a few very successful burglars, it is also good to be sneaky and selective about what you steal. It helps your business. People won't just up and leave with all their shit. This is one thing I see getting abused quite badly and it really ruins things for everyone. Use your heads, eh?

[Ampere]

I don't think it would be a bad thing to have burglars made a karma class (1).

[titansfan]

Eh, idk about that, but certainly put some restraint on taking a whole complex full of shit with you and just stride past the doormen with a wide smile.

[Synthesis]

If burglars were remotely good at anything but picking locks, they would probably find better things to do.  I've long been a fan of merging all the burglar shit with the pickpocket class, and calling it something else.

Oh, also, burglary should be more dangerous.  As it stands, the only time I've -ever- been caught doing it was once when I -knew- someone was behind the door (because I was trying to kill them).  I think if you try to sneak past the damned guard (in or out) and fail, you should get crim-flagged.  Of course, this would only stop complete newbs from getting in, but it might at least keep people from getting -out- with a ton of loot...at least in one trip.

[Pale Horse]

I've been the target of "spam burglary" before, that clean out my whole apartment, so I can feel and sympathize.

Having said that, has anyone thought to turn suspicion onto their neighbors, say, in the room across the hall?  Sneaking out past the door guard with a chest in hand would be a bit unrealistic, sure, but posting a budy at the top of the stairs as a look out while you move some things from one end of the hall to the other seems a bit more..plausible, to me.

Heck, I've DONE this, before.  Didn't take everything but a good chunk of their things managed to find a new home just across the hall.

[SMuz]

They could be roleplaying. Probably elves. Can you blame a person for playing his role right?

[IAmJacksOpinion]

They could be roleplaying. Probably elves. Can you blame a person for playing his role right?

Having said that, has anyone thought to turn suspicion onto their neighbors, say, in the room across the hall?  Sneaking out past the door guard with a chest in hand would be a bit unrealistic, sure, but posting a budy at the top of the stairs as a look out while you move some things from one end of the hall to the other seems a bit more..plausible, to me.

Word.

I think if you try to sneak past the damned guard (in or out) and fail, you should get crim-flagged.  Of course, this would only stop complete newbs from getting in, but it might at least keep people from getting -out- with a ton of loot...at least in one trip.

Um, it's my belief that a total newb wouldn't get through the doorway to begin with, much less manage to either a) Make one pick last long enough to get good enough to get in, or b) get the funds to buy a buttload of picks.

That being said, getting crim-flagged wouldn't solve the problem, it would only create more. ie: Accidentally trying to go past, trying to go past and not realizing your rent is up, etc.  I would say maybe 2 -3 times within 10-15 minutes?


That being said, for the elves reading this, one GOOD thing I've seen from a burglar was on my last merchant character. I was making arrows and I would have like 20+ in one chest any time. I wasn't sure, but I think a burglar was breaking in and taking 2-3 arrows every so often. I had some decently expensive things, but they always went for the arrows, and there were so many I could never remember if I had 19 or 17 or 23 at any given time. This is a good strategy, because it supplies the burglar with a constant stream of loot, and not just a mother load haul.

Don't confuse this for me trying to say that this is the way things SHOULD be done. It's a good idea though.

[Lizzie]

Possible strategy for a burglar to NOT get caught (cause if he wants to get caught, he should be wishing up with each attempt in hopes that the doorman/guard will actually DO something about his continued entries/exits with other peoples' shit:

1. Don't go back/forth back/forth repeatedly to dump shit out of the apartment. Go in there with an idea of WHAT you want to take. Take only that, and leave.

2. LOCK the door behind you. Please remember: pick works in reverse.

[Dan]

Definately lock doors behind you.

If you can go in and take anything at any time, why leave it open for someone elses sticky fingers? Take one or two things, a mental note of what the place has and then bounce out. That way if you ever come across someone that wants a few select things, you might just know where to find it.

Take ownership of your flock. I would love to see a slum lord type character crop up here or there. If your messing around on their turf, breaking down doors where they get their own coin from there will be hell to pay. Protect the ones you steal from, or there will eventually be no one left to rob.

On top of this, people getting stolen from. If you have -that- much to be stolen, maybe you should contact some shady type people that are capable of tracking down and dealing with these mass apartment robbers. Its not like you can just go anywhere and buy a lockpick, any Guild Boss or Tunnel dweller worth his salt will keep tabs on whos buying that sort of thing.



Request- Random NPC soldier patrols through apartments. Like the automated script there is now that takes them around in huge circles, but just have that go through the apartments as well. If your caught in plain sight picking a lock they can try and arrest you.

[Marauder Moe]

If burglars were remotely good at anything but picking locks, they would probably find better things to do.  I've long been a fan of merging all the burglar shit with the pickpocket class, and calling it something else.

Really?

Burglars are an awesome class.  They're the jack of all trades.  My burglars have done fine in several professions without using the lockpick skill.


That said, I think burglary as a profession is broken.  It should be removed from the game until a more balanced system is devised, even if that means it won't come back until Arm 2.0.

What would be a more balanced system?  Unfortunately, as I understand it, I don't think the Armageddon code could easily distinguish between an intruder and an apartment's owner.  If it could, though, I guess it would be good if when you attempt to pick a lock, some sort of timer starts and the longer you remain in the area, the more likely you are to get noticed and subsequently crim-flagged.  This might encourage burglars to be quick about their business, grab only light, valuable items in plain sight, and then get the heck out of there.

There should also be virtual (or NPC) landlords that wander the hallways and re-lock opened apartments to prevent other people from just walking in to a burglarized apartment and cleaning it out.

[Cutthroat]

It [burglary as a profession] should be removed from the game until a more balanced system is devised, even if that means it won't come back until Arm 2.0.

While I agree that burglary is messed up to some extent, I think simple player awareness will suffice instead of removal while a sensible system is worked out. Why? Because there are people do break-ins responsibly, to steal or even for other reasons. The burglars who clean out entire apartments should anticipate that the hammer will be dropped upon them, because a wealthy tenant who is pissed off enough can make things happen.

There's lots of ideas for changing burglaries that float around on the GDB, but I think that burglaries that involve lock-picking should be exceedingly rare. Most burglars in our lovely real world don't know how to pick locks, and it does take a long time to do, so they look for other insecurities in a home instead. Windows, balconies and other openings in a home are easier to target, even if they do involve some dangerous climbing - well, there's the risk for you. Also, since it would look silly to be climbing a building in the daylight (gee, I wonder what that guy is climbing apartment complexes for, says the half-giant soldier) you should get crimflagged if you're spotted scaling buildings. Try climbing down again with a table, a chest and a set of chairs - I hope they land on your neck on the quick way down.

Lockpicking should be a lot harder to pull off correctly and train, and not just limited by your lockpick supply as it is now. Lockpicking should take a longer time than it does currently. It should be impossible to sneak past apartment guards to get in, since they're literally blocking the narrow way in all of the time, and this will force burglaries into being inside jobs specifically. NPC guards should walk around apartments sometimes and shout "Thief! Thief!" when they spot someone picking a lock.

[Comrade Canadia]

Normally I'm not a huge fan, of OOC behaviour being fixed by IC behaviour as I don't feel it always works but...

Take ownership of your flock. I would love to see a slum lord type character crop up here or there. If your messing around on their turf, breaking down doors where they get their own coin from there will be hell to pay. Protect the ones you steal from, or there will eventually be no one left to rob.

Honestly, this is the best thing I can think of. Player institutions should hunt down and destroy burglars who are operating as freelancers. I know that people have this romantic idea of a solo burglar, but when it comes at such a heavy expense on other players, the joy of it is lessened somewhat. Burglars are a great class in terms of a wide balance of things they can do, but yeah... burglaring other players as a way to make money is pretty broken.

And it makes sense. If people can get a huge coded advantage at the expense of roleplay, MANY will do just that. When you can haul out three chests without anyone stopping you, there's a problem. The risk vs reward in such a venture is so heavily weighted towards reward, only players who are a model of self-restraint are going to police their roleplay at the expense of so many pretties. Many do, but enough don't that we have a problem. Short of an insane mount of restrictive code which may protect players, but won't really help the realism, I'm not sure what can be done. More effective IC policing may be best option.

[jcljules]

As someone who's played a burglar in the past, albeit a short-lived one, I can say that it really sucks to be 'the good burglar' when someone like this is operating. They take everything, so there's nothing for you, and everyone who knows about you thinks that you're the twink.   

[elvenchipmunk]

If you are being robbed repeatedly, seeking out the nearest crime lord and paying a fee might help to slow down the robbings a bit. Of course it is impossible for a PC to keep track of everyone who is robbing apartments, but they can damn well try, and put an end to it when they find out.

So, paying the criminals in advance not to rob your place in the future is likely the best solution.

[brytta.leofa]

I know PCs have attempted to provide security/"protection" in the past.

[mansa]

Find out IC

[Zoan]

STOP RIGHT THERE CRIMINAL SCUM.

[jhunter]

You don't know for certain that one person cleaned out the place. I'm sure it happens and if so that's pretty piss poor rp. What happens alot of the time is that someone will break in, steal some things and then leave it open for others to come along and clean it out over a period of time.
That said, none of my burglars have ever burglarized anything. Usually they end up doing other things. Someone else called them the "jack-of-all-trades" when it comes to sneaky stuff and I completely agree.

[Synthesis]

If you are being robbed repeatedly, seeking out the nearest crime lord and paying a fee might help to slow down the robbings a bit. Of course it is impossible for a PC to keep track of everyone who is robbing apartments, but they can damn well try, and put an end to it when they find out.

So, paying the criminals in advance not to rob your place in the future is likely the best solution.

Nothing short of Imm involvement can stop an off-peak master burglar, or a master burglar who only does his dirty work off-peak.

[Dalmeth]

If burglars were remotely good at anything but picking locks, they would probably find better things to do.  I've long been a fan of merging all the burglar shit with the pickpocket class, and calling it something else.

Oh, also, burglary should be more dangerous.  As it stands, the only time I've -ever- been caught doing it was once when I -knew- someone was behind the door (because I was trying to kill them).  I think if you try to sneak past the damned guard (in or out) and fail, you should get crim-flagged.  Of course, this would only stop complete newbs from getting in, but it might at least keep people from getting -out- with a ton of loot...at least in one trip.

Better would be having the guard start watching anyone who tries to sneak past.  Make sure this form of watch doesn't break scan.  Presto.  You make it much harder to enter without sending someone immediately to jail or getting killed by overzealous guards.

[Fathi]

Personally, I wouldn't be in favour of any system that crimflagged people just for sneaking around in an apartment complex. As it stands right now, the way the staff have described sneaking isn't skulking around on your tiptoes in a dark, hooded cloak--it's trying to blend into the crowd and be as neutrally background as possible. I'd like to shy away from anything that even inches toward the act of sneaking being criminal in and of itself.

However, I agree with others in the thread that have said burglary as a profession is somewhat broken.

What I'd love to see is a system where NPC employees of Nenyuk or perhaps just freelance mercenaries can be bribed to stand guard at different places in apartment complexes, including right outisde one's door. These guards would ideally have rotating shifts so that even if you pay for protection, there's still a window of opportunity that a burglar who does his or her research can discover. And of course, if a burglar wants into a protected apartment that badly, they could always wish up and try to bribe said NPC for more or even have a partner that creates a distraction that would draw the guard's attention.

Doing this all with PCs would be even more awesome and yes I'm aware you already can, but a system with at least some rentable NPC function would be a lot easier on off-peakers and people playing in cities that aren't 'popular' at any given moment.

[Zoan]

I like this thread. Never having played a burglar who burglarizes, I would have (if I did) had gone in and ripped all your shit off, because it's what I thought was supposed to happen (having had it happen to me before. Fair game!). But reading all this makes me realize I shouldn't. All Hail GDB!

[mattrious]

These items might of been mentioned above but I'm not really in the mood to read a wall of text right now. First, there is more than one class in this game that gets the 'pick lock' skill so let's not just single out one class. Secondly, I've played sneaky sneaky classes before that didn't have the skill and was able to get into TONS of places. How? People forget to lock their doors. The burgalar's of the world do not cover their tracks properly and people go in behind them. There are a ton of different possibilities besides someone playing a class poorly.

[elvenchipmunk]

If you are being robbed repeatedly, seeking out the nearest crime lord and paying a fee might help to slow down the robbings a bit. Of course it is impossible for a PC to keep track of everyone who is robbing apartments, but they can damn well try, and put an end to it when they find out.

So, paying the criminals in advance not to rob your place in the future is likely the best solution.

Nothing short of Imm involvement can stop an off-peak master burglar, or a master burglar who only does his dirty work off-peak.

Yeah, that's why I used words like "might help" and "it is impossible". Catching someone like that is sometimes beyond the control of your nearest crime lord.

[SMuz]

Pfft.. a true master burglar would be able to rob an apartment while the owner's out to refill his waterskin. And he'd be able to kill the owner too if he gets caught, unless the owner was a master warrior and such. Won't even need to sneak past the guy guarding the apartments.

[Pale Horse]

You want to know how to play a burglar?

Find the show "To Catch a Thief."  Watch it.

[Zoltan]

Someone mentioned that burglars "should" relock doors after picking them open. That's crap. Sometimes, your character who just stole coin, food and equipment from a place just doesn't give a fuck; they got what they want and that's that. That's not poor role-play. Also, maybe the burglar in question doesn't want to risk breaking their precious pick relocking some guy's door? Seriously, when I played a burglar, picks were like god damned unicorns. In fact, that character of mine totally fucked himself over once playing the "nice guy" like that!

I agree that people clearing out even the furniture in an apartment and -walking out with that crap past the guard- is... kind of abusive.

[Riev]

Someone mentioned that burglars "should" relock doors after picking them open. That's crap. Sometimes, your character who just stole coin, food and equipment from a place just doesn't give a fuck; they got what they want and that's that. That's not poor role-play. Also, maybe the burglar in question doesn't want to risk breaking their precious pick relocking some guy's door? Seriously, when I played a burglar, picks were like god damned unicorns. In fact, that character of mine totally fucked himself over once playing the "nice guy" like that!

I agree that people clearing out even the furniture in an apartment and -walking out with that crap past the guard- is... kind of abusive.

The problem with not relocking doors, is when you walk into an apartment complex, and all the doors have been unlocked and even remain open. I cannot imagine being in ANY apartment complex where someone doesn't notice a person picking every lock on some 12 doors and then just leaving the door open.

[Zoltan]

Someone mentioned that burglars "should" relock doors after picking them open. That's crap. Sometimes, your character who just stole coin, food and equipment from a place just doesn't give a fuck; they got what they want and that's that. That's not poor role-play. Also, maybe the burglar in question doesn't want to risk breaking their precious pick relocking some guy's door? Seriously, when I played a burglar, picks were like god damned unicorns. In fact, that character of mine totally fucked himself over once playing the "nice guy" like that!

I agree that people clearing out even the furniture in an apartment and -walking out with that crap past the guard- is... kind of abusive.

The problem with not relocking doors, is when you walk into an apartment complex, and all the doors have been unlocked and even remain open. I cannot imagine being in ANY apartment complex where someone doesn't notice a person picking every lock on some 12 doors and then just leaving the door open.

I agree that it's pretty ridiculous. Still, I don't think players that hit the odd apartment should feel pressured to lock up behind themselves, as some sort of courtesy.

[Lizzie]

Ah no I don't think anyone's talking about what you're suggesting Zoltan. I think it's pretty clear, lately, that the situation is more regarding the mass-lockpicking going on, where in most cases, the actual apartments aren't even looted. It's more like someone who -can- pick, is picking, simply because they can. And then not bothering to lock up afterward. Not necessarily even going into the place they just unlocked. Just "pick lock west" then "pick lock east" then "north" then "pick lock west" and "pick lock east" and rinse repeat until every single door in every single building, apartment or otherwise, has been unlocked.

It's stupid, it makes no IC or OOC sense, it isn't believable that someone -would- be able to get away with that.

[a strange shadow]

It's not courtesy. It's the mark of a professional.

If you're some scummy piece of shit burglar and it's your role to take, run, and not care, then more power to you.

[Synthesis]

It's not courtesy. It's the mark of a professional.

If you're some scummy piece of shit burglar and it's your role to take, run, and not care, then more power to you.

The problem with this is that the minimal code assumes players will be responsible, thus allowing irresponsible players to get away with ridiculous things.

[Zoltan]

Ah no I don't think anyone's talking about what you're suggesting Zoltan. I think it's pretty clear, lately, that the situation is more regarding the mass-lockpicking going on, where in most cases, the actual apartments aren't even looted. It's more like someone who -can- pick, is picking, simply because they can. And then not bothering to lock up afterward. Not necessarily even going into the place they just unlocked. Just "pick lock west" then "pick lock east" then "north" then "pick lock west" and "pick lock east" and rinse repeat until every single door in every single building, apartment or otherwise, has been unlocked.

It's stupid, it makes no IC or OOC sense, it isn't believable that someone -would- be able to get away with that.

All right, I see what you mean. Still, sometimes there isn't anything actually -worth- taking in an apartment... but the surest way to know is to break in.

[Voular]

Code the entry guard to send someone to check on the doors every so often. Tug on the handles, lock them if need be. One of the problem solved.

[Sephiroto]

Idea: Great percentage of being caught (wanted/cut up into little pieces) for picking locks in buildings during the day due to heavy traffic of coming and going tennants.  Low percentage of being caught at night, but 1 roving NPC transits up and down the halls in the manner that soldiers patrol the streets.

[spawnloser]

let's not just single out one class.

Noone is singling out a class.  People are singling out a profession/vocation.  That the profession/vocation shares a name with a class is inconsequential.

[Jingo]

I've always wanted to play a sort of treasure hunter with the burglar class.

burglar/scavenger

[Synthesis]

I've always wanted to play a sort of treasure hunter with the burglar class.

burglar/scavenger

That subclass would overlap almost completely with the burglar class.  Basically like going ranger/hunter, pickpocket/thief, or warrior/guard.

[Jingo]

Yeah I know. Back in my noob days.

I think they get a boost to forage, though.

[mansa]

When I played a burglar, I would unlock apartments of people I didn't like and let other people steal from it, rather than me.

Sucks to be you.  I opened your door and let your neighbours steal your crap.

[jhunter]

It's not courtesy. It's the mark of a professional.

If you're some scummy piece of shit burglar and it's your role to take, run, and not care, then more power to you.

The problem with this is that the minimal code assumes players will be responsible, thus allowing irresponsible players to get away with ridiculous things.

It also allows for responsible players to do things that would otherwise not be possible. As I've said before, tightening up the code to prevent a few -potential- twinks only harms those who would have used that "grey area" for rp possibilities. That is the biggest downfall to overcoding the game. You remove the "grey area", the area that we have open to rp, from -everyone- in order to prevent a few newbies or unthinking (or intentional) twinks from doing stupid or unrealistic things.
That's more of a negative impact on the game than dealing with those situations when they come up on a case by case basis.
It harms rp in the long run.

[Pantoufle]

Just for the sake of argument, how does anyone know it's a burglar who cleared out their apartment?

[Jenred]

Just for the sake of argument, how does anyone know it's a burglar who cleared out their apartment?

This.

I've moved into apartment complexes (IG) and in the process of trying to find my room I find a number of which are unlocked and stocked. I usually take some things, and Im sure other players do too. I've never "emptied a place out", and I think just because your apartment was full and when you next go there its empty does not mean one burglar is role-playing badly. Its jumping to conclusions.

Additionally, more places for burglars to do things would ease the burden on the typically same group of people that know how to play the economy well enough to repeatedly get apartments, and thus repeatedly get burgled.

And additionally again, I remember playing in the Byn back in the day and we'd repeatedly get contracts to guard people's houses, I think through Nenyuk. - i.e. some people should create plot opportunities if this is a big problem.

[SMuz]

And additionally again, I remember playing in the Byn back in the day and we'd repeatedly get contracts to guard people's houses, I think through Nenyuk. - i.e. some people should create plot opportunities if this is a big problem.

That I agree with. Plot oppurtunities always add to the game.

But if you intend to drag out large amounts of furniture, have the decency to pay the NPC who's guarding the apartment a few small.

[Salt Merchant]

And additionally again, I remember playing in the Byn back in the day and we'd repeatedly get contracts to guard people's houses, I think through Nenyuk. - i.e. some people should create plot opportunities if this is a big problem.

All Byn log out by say 3:00 a.m.
Burlgar strikes at 4:30 a.m.

Just won't work. There is no way you'll get players to stand a 24/7 guard, especially when during nearly all of those hours, nothing happens.

[Qzzrbl]

Just for the sake of argument, how does anyone know it's a burglar who cleared out their apartment?

Because a burglar, by definition, is one who breaks into a house or apartment to steal stuff.

We're talkin' profession, not guild here, yo.

[SMuz]

Just for the sake of argument, how does anyone know it's a burglar who cleared out their apartment?

Because a burglar, by definition, is one who breaks into a house or apartment to steal stuff.

We're talkin' profession, not guild here, yo.

Could very well be that the burglar broke into it and stole only a few small things. Then a neighbor took their furniture because the door was open, without breaking into anything

[jcljules]

I've always shied away from neighbor theft. Is it at all ICly justifiable, in the opinions of you guys? I've always thought it was a little... cheap, kinda. Too risk free.

[SMuz]

Lol, it's as IC justifiable as it gets. Only thing keeping the character back is the conscience, and the very minor possibility of getting caught. Whether it's OOCly justifiable is the real question.

[jcljules]

By ICly justifiable I meant realistic. 

[SMuz]

Well, yeah, same thing. Like the thugs in the rinth who kill everyone in sight... it's more realistic to kill the PCs too. But out of OOC consideration, some of them don't.

Same here.. you can rob your neighbor bare, and if your character really is the selfish type who doesn't like his neighbor, he would. But you don't because it's just polite not to steal everything. And you're sort of worried of being called a twink and negative account notes and stuff.

In a sense, you're actually not roleplaying right in some cases

[AmandaGreathouse]

I've always shied away from neighbor theft. Is it at all ICly justifiable, in the opinions of you guys? I've always thought it was a little... cheap, kinda. Too risk free.

This. Cheap and shitty.

[X-D]

Cheap and shitty, yup, but realistic.

Most burglery/theft is performed by neighers, often stealing from people who have no more then they do. Ghetto is rampant that way...and most zalanthas is below ghetto.

[Krath]

Cheap and shitty, yup, but realistic.

Most burglery/theft is performed by neighers, often stealing from people who have no more then they do. Ghetto is rampant that way...and most zalanthas is below ghetto.

What XD said is Truth, regardless if you want to admit it or not.

[Lizzie]

Cheap and shitty, yup, but realistic.

Most burglery/theft is performed by neighers, often stealing from people who have no more then they do. Ghetto is rampant that way...and most zalanthas is below ghetto.

What XD said is Truth, regardless if you want to admit it or not.

Not true. We steal from neighbors who have MORE than we do! I mean they do. Not me. I don't steal from neighbors. Well except -that- neighbor. But he doesn't count. Everyone steals from him.

[Good Gortok]

Would you rob your neighbor if the apartment hallway was frequently occupied by other tenants and their kids running around all day? Would you wander into your neighbor's apartment if you didn't know that they were not online, and if you weren't aware of the fact that due to the time warp most PCs tend to disappear for up to an IC week at a time? Realistically, your neighbor would probably be home half the time, but relatively few players can log in every other hour around the clock to realistically portray the life cycles of their characters.

The question is not so much one of "would you steal from your neighbor" as it is "are you doing it in the same manner that you would if you had been a real person in Zalanthas", and there's a significant difference. Just because you can tell that the apartment was robbed and the owner hasn't logged in since doesn't mean it's free game. It's the same reason you shouldn't loot a PC corpse sitting at the feet of five NPC soldiers - maybe it's OOCly possible, maybe your character is the type who would loot a dead guy, but the game cannot account for what would realistically happen, and five soldiers would not cut down a criminal and then stand there for days looking into space, much less allow you to grabs his shit.

[SMuz]

Ah, how I hate the time warp. It so complicates things. Well, I don't think most Zalanthans (or their kids) would act upon seeing a neighbor steal from their neighbor's home. It's none of their business. If, IRL, I saw my neighbor's door open and some familiar person enter it and drag out a sofa, I'd be suspicious, but I wouldn't call the police. Especially if the police were trigger happy and enjoyed torturing people who waste their time.

I suppose the imms could report it if they catch you But under the same argument, burglars wouldn't be playable at all, there's always someone watching the place, so when would they be free to steal stuff?

[Potaje]

Couldn't one consider the time warp as say -Gone on Vaction- in RL. It they are gone for say a week in game, then how realistic is it that they are home, all the time, and who is to say that the time chosen by said burglar wasn't when they had to go to the market to say, refill the water barrel, skin, bucket needed to hold up in their place. Its such a hard line to draw, and what really is is that we all hate, I mean it really burns, when you get nicked or come home to find your placed turned up side down. Is it any worse to be hunting come home and find it or log in and find it. Worse is now you are not sure about eating and drinking the stuff that was in the place... Icks.

I find great enjoyment when A nicker gets nicked.

[Pale Horse]

In regards to the notion that it's somehow less than "realistic" (read:good roll-play) to rob a neighbor..Well, I can say that I for one would not do such a thing in RL.  If alignment were real I'd be lawful good, with the occasional spurt of neutral and chaotic neutral.

Then again, I've never been so desperate as to resort to theft to get by, and I've not grown up in an environment where that sort of thinking is common place and almost expected.  I have lived in such a place before and, yes, the robbing of apartments, often in plain sight, during daylight, was an all too regular thing to see.

You come up the stairs/elevator, turn down the long hall, see kids wandering around and a group of four or five men hanging out around an open apartment door.  Inside is a few more men, rummaging about.  You pass by and either don't make eye contact, turn down the hall in the opposite direction and blatantly shrug it off so as to not direct their attention to you, or, if you're in tight with that very group (read: you pay protection), a nod and a mumbled hello as you walk quickly past.

It's how I imagine Zalanthas to be.  Tenements/Apartment complexes are crowded.  People wander around.  There are miniature gangs or groups that look out for each other inside.  You do not mess with one nor draw attention to yourself if you're not part of one, or you make yourself valuable enough to everyone at large that no one will mess with you, for fear of drawing the ire of the rest of the groups around.

Kind of a long, round about way of putting it, but apartment robbing is probably a time-honored tradition in Allanak and Tuluk. 

[DustMight]

As a long ago teen-aged criminal, let me put in my 2 sids based on RL experiences:

1. Sometimes joe average burglar breaks in with no idea except he's going to steal something - no real plan.

2. The risk of getting caught is enough (and the excitement is high enough) that you take everything that catches your eye and that you can carry.  When we broke into a small store we didn't just take one brand of cigarettes - we took every damn carton and pack we could find.  We didn't just take the cash in the cash box, we took the spare change as well.  Any and everything we could carry and desired.

3. On more "professional" hits we did just take what we were looking for and went in knowning what we wanted, but even by then it wasn't always that way.

In game ideas - it would be cool if there was a tradition of a "burglar jar" in each apartment which could be, essentially, a bribe to any thief who picks the lock.  Take what's in the jar please, I recognize I am at your mercy and leave the rest.  If the bribe wasn't big enough, maybe the thieves would show this by taking stuff.

Gangs of theives might honor this tradition and take care of thieves that weren't following the rules by putting them out of business.

Just an idea middle of the night.

While I, too, find it frustrating to find my apartment stripped bare, burglars don't have very exciting lives. I agree with Synth that they should be mingled in with pickpockets - if not making the whole "alley" class of characters one big class so that there would be options.  Or better yet, make burglaring a subguild.  It doesn't really hold its own as a class. 

[IAmJacksOpinion]

Agreed with Dustmight. I once broke into a place, shuffled through a rack, and walked off with 2 dvds and a can of beer. A buddy of mine, once broke into an office building and stole the fire extinguisher. And these were all 'familiar' places to us.

However, I ain't gonna do that as a Zalanthan burglar. I'm here to gank your shit.

A burglar jar is a pretty good idea. But honestly, depending on the apartment, my burglar would just assume that the stone vase was just the tenant's life savings, and that the burglar jar was that big wooden dresser full of silk. 

In the end, what can you do? Answer: Get trap. Set out bogus flash powder bombs.

[Gunnerblaster]

I've said it once, and many others have said it before:

It's the Burglars who break in and nick a few valuables - It's your neighbors who clear you the hell out.

[shadeoux]

I've said it once, and many others have said it before:

It's the Burglars who break in and nick a few valuables - It's your neighbors who clear you the hell out.

THANK YOU!

This is why I usually know who does it, shit I like the pseudo burglars, oh looks there is an unlocked door lets see what I can get.
(I'm guilty of this too) then again I was in a position of power doing it

at least im not one of the few who understand this.

In game ideas - it would be cool if there was a tradition of a "burglar jar" in each apartment which could be, essentially, a bribe to any thief who picks the lock.  Take what's in the jar please, I recognize I am at your mercy and leave the rest.  If the bribe wasn't big enough, maybe the thieves would show this by taking stuff.

Gangs of theives might honor this tradition and take care of thieves that weren't following the rules by putting them out of business.

Just an idea middle of the night.

this is already implemented ICly I believe to some extent

[Riev]

Its been said before..


Burglars. Relock the doors when you're done. Then people may not notice missing things, and people may not come after you with a vendetta.

[elvenchipmunk]

Where's the fun if there's no vendetta.

[FantasyWriter]

Where's the fun if there's no vendetta.

Living long enough to become teh awesome.

[RRiplash]

I've often wondered, in thief-enabled MMO, whether it would work to have a chars 'home' (whatever that may be for a given game) codely locked out half an hour (real time) after the char loggs.
That way their 'home' could only be robbed while they are actually in game, or just after they log.

Otherwise, if you don't log in for a week you are pretty much guaranteed to have been robbed.

And it leaves no challenge for a burglar.  Without the challenge of robbing a place when the owner could come back at any time, what's the point?
Also makes it more likely that the burglar types will actually follow residents around to figure out their routine.  And that opens up a lot more fun RP opportunities, IMO.

If I'm playing a thiefy char, I like to have reasons to use the tricks of the trade.

[musashi]

Otherwise, if you don't log in for a week you are pretty much guaranteed to have been robbed.

If you don't log in for a week your apartment has probably been rented off to someone else. Along with whatever was inside it.

[HTX]

RRip: I can already see the argument of "but it'll screw over off-peak burglars over!" so I'll be the first one to say it.

I'd prefer coded risk: there should be a risk of crim-code kicking in etc.. Different quality locks, guards, whatever.

[Garrett6034]

In truth I used to play a long term successful buglar.   I survived not because I stole everything... I survived because back in the day when the staff had pc's roaming around with every single key to all the apartments.  I stole the keys!!!! Another time I robbed another apartment whom another family member left all the apartment keys to every apartment in their room.     Good old days..

I casually walked into aparment complex with smiles.  emoted waving at people. Becoming friends with the npc guard.   ( I was ballsy at that point)

Then..   I would casually flip though these keys, knock on the door ( yes people knock first!!!)  Then emot cracking the door open, look around.

Here is where I am a bit different that other thieves. I took my knowledge from when my old man used to be a cop.  What was not stolen by me ( I never stole the kitchen sink or a big chest)  I did however destroy everything, id take the time and show people I was there.   Would destroy objects and leave them there broken as if I was running though the entire apartment in a hurry. ( I was)  Searched for things, find the most valuable items then casually walk out the door, lock it. Carry my Swag out past the guard just smiling and waving.

If there was a guard inside and I thought I could take him.. I would.   If I seen some lonly npc children ( with a cracked door open emot) Id close it quickly wish all ( I am gonna try and kill these kids in here and take what I can)

Wait for a response, then look around, emot for a bit and do the deed. ( Yes I made sure to make sure the bodies were properly portrayed to show I was there.)


To be a thief, its not only about what you steal, its about how you steal and what you leave behind.  Be a bit realistic!!

For those thieves who are across the hallway.  Simply steal a chest now and then,  you are going across the hall. Someone asks you something, say it was a gift. Later kill the person who asked if you can. 

Its a bit more suspicious when they see you take the bed out, the table, the copper pot, and the curtains.   Atlest use the copper pot to dump its contents on the person who seen you do your stupid deed. 

Come on thieves, where are the old pleasantries?

[Qzzrbl]

Its a bit more suspicious when they see you take the bed out, the table, the copper pot, and the curtains.   Atlest use the copper pot to dump its contents on the person who seen you do your stupid deed. 

Suspicious or not.... I'd steal the fuck out of a copper pot.

Just sayin'.

[musashi]

Its a bit more suspicious when they see you take the bed out, the table, the copper pot, and the curtains.   Atlest use the copper pot to dump its contents on the person who seen you do your stupid deed. 

Suspicious or not.... I'd steal the fuck out of a copper pot.

Just sayin'.

LOL

[Dar]

stuff

Hehe. I once tried to put the burglarizing under control. Died too quickly though. Perhaps one of those days, I'll give it another try.

[Riev]

If my character dies (Krath forbid) I would likely roll up a sneaky stealy class, and do my damndest to do it RIGHT. Don't get caught, practice on the right marks at the right time, etc etc.


But I would definitely steal the shit out of a copper pot.

[mansa]

A bar on doors would make the game ever-more interesting.

[Qzzrbl]

A bar on doors would make the game ever-more interesting.

Zalanthans are smart enough to make key-entry door locks out of -wood-.

But completely oblivious to the idea of a door bar.

[Salt Merchant]

A bar on doors would make the game ever-more interesting.

Zalanthans are smart enough to make key-entry door locks out of -wood-.

But completely oblivious to the idea of a door bar.

I've decided to view this as a templarate sort of thing. No one is allowed to fortify their homes.

[Zharal]

I think a Bar slide on doors as option would be awsome.. just dont put them in every apartment
and if it could be made to unlock upon logging out would be cool too; then burgulars lease have
a chance.. Make it more of a online experience..  my two cents, but I love the idea...  plus it aint
like a half-giant couldn't bash the door in should it be a Templarete issue.. Damn I love this idea.

[Sephiroto]

I've decided to view this as a templarate sort of thing. No one is allowed to fortify their homes.

Why?  They have half-giant soldiers.  Staff could always script some way for them to bash down (open) any door through some "order follower" command.

[Salt Merchant]

I've decided to view this as a templarate sort of thing. No one is allowed to fortify their homes.

Why?  They have half-giant soldiers.  Staff could always script some way for them to bash down (open) any door through some "order follower" command.

Why?  Because while a half-giant might smack open a door with a lock in a single blow, a good stout barred door could take longer, especially to clear the wreckage for the soldiers to fit through. Meanwhile every shady in the area (including the ones behind the door) are given ample warning to flee through any bolt holes they have, dispose of incriminating evidence, hide, or whatever.

Really why? It's the closest thing to a good explanation (still not very good though) available for this playability-trumps-realism issue.

[mansa]

Imagine being a smart burglar, who has to track their victims in order to know -when- they leave their apartments, and NOT when they log out of the game.

[a strange shadow]

Oblivion-style burglary would rock.

[AmandaGreathouse]

Oblivion-style burglary would rock.

Yes. I don't get into sneaky roles at all as it is, but if it was like Oblivion... Oh man. But then I was one of the people that never once used autopick while beating the game. The attempts at manually picking the door were all too amazingly fun and challenging.

[a strange shadow]

The lockpicking minigame was fun (doing it manually loses you less picks, I find...) but I was talking more about the whole "living NPCs" script - tons of houses to rob, objects in them to take, someone may or may not be home, but if you watch the NPC in question long enough you can figure out the best time to make a hit. NPC's objects could load randomly and at a random rate, within a certain parameter ("object quality: high, average, poor, load: frequently, infrequently"), but all that sounds way too complicated to put into Armageddon 1.0. Still, a thief can dream.

[AmandaGreathouse]

True enough.

[Zharal]

Thats a good point.. hell in rl people case houses alll the time to see when its free to mess with..
and as far as a half giant... hell any 15 foot giant would be able to smash a door down..

[musashi]

The lockpicking minigame was fun (doing it manually loses you less picks, I find...) but I was talking more about the whole "living NPCs" script - tons of houses to rob, objects in them to take, someone may or may not be home, but if you watch the NPC in question long enough you can figure out the best time to make a hit. NPC's objects could load randomly and at a random rate, within a certain parameter ("object quality: high, average, poor, load: frequently, infrequently"), but all that sounds way too complicated to put into Armageddon 1.0. Still, a thief can dream.

That would be a fantastic idea for reborn though.

[Qzzrbl]

Just because someone bars a door doesn't mean you need to get an HG to get past it-- there -are- tools to get by barred doors IRL, y'know. 

[Pale Horse]

Just because someone bars a door doesn't mean you need to get an HG to get past it-- there -are- tools to get by barred doors IRL, y'know. 

IG, too!  They're called Magickers.

[MarshallDFX]

Code Select Expand

>barricade n
>Barricade with what?
>barricade n log log branch
>That direction doesn't have a closed door to barricade!
>barricade e log log branch
>You build a shitty barricade on the east exit.
>A tall, muscular man has arrived from the east, breaking through a barricade.
> think shit!
> You think:
     "shit!"
>barricade e log log log log log plank plank plank branch branch rope
>You build an unbelievably awesome barricade on the east exit.
>think Damn.  I left my food outside.
> You think:
     "Damn.  I left my food outside."
>remove barricade e
>You tear down a barricade to the east.


Meh, not quite perfect.  Something the reverse of guard.