Burglars, reminder

[spawnloser]

I couldn't find a good thread to post this in so...

Okay, seriously... I think this needs to be said.  People playing Burglars are getting greedy.  Burglars are raiding apartments for EVERYTHING in them.  Not only is this at least a little unrealistic (a crew of people that the landlord doesn't recognize walking out of the building carrying MULTIPLE chests, in at least two examples of recent burglary that I've heard of) but it convinces people not to get apartments.  Eventually, everyone not playing a burglar will be living out of their backpacks because of this sort of behavior.  I know some players have expressed the intent to do so on all future characters, don't convince the rest of us to do the same.

Thank you.

[Thunkkin]

http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,33716.0.html

[titansfan]

Having play a few very successful burglars, it is also good to be sneaky and selective about what you steal. It helps your business. People won't just up and leave with all their shit. This is one thing I see getting abused quite badly and it really ruins things for everyone. Use your heads, eh?

[Ampere]

I don't think it would be a bad thing to have burglars made a karma class (1).

[titansfan]

Eh, idk about that, but certainly put some restraint on taking a whole complex full of shit with you and just stride past the doormen with a wide smile.

[Synthesis]

If burglars were remotely good at anything but picking locks, they would probably find better things to do.  I've long been a fan of merging all the burglar shit with the pickpocket class, and calling it something else.

Oh, also, burglary should be more dangerous.  As it stands, the only time I've -ever- been caught doing it was once when I -knew- someone was behind the door (because I was trying to kill them).  I think if you try to sneak past the damned guard (in or out) and fail, you should get crim-flagged.  Of course, this would only stop complete newbs from getting in, but it might at least keep people from getting -out- with a ton of loot...at least in one trip.

[Pale Horse]

I've been the target of "spam burglary" before, that clean out my whole apartment, so I can feel and sympathize.

Having said that, has anyone thought to turn suspicion onto their neighbors, say, in the room across the hall?  Sneaking out past the door guard with a chest in hand would be a bit unrealistic, sure, but posting a budy at the top of the stairs as a look out while you move some things from one end of the hall to the other seems a bit more..plausible, to me.

Heck, I've DONE this, before.  Didn't take everything but a good chunk of their things managed to find a new home just across the hall.

[SMuz]

They could be roleplaying. Probably elves. Can you blame a person for playing his role right?

[IAmJacksOpinion]

They could be roleplaying. Probably elves. Can you blame a person for playing his role right?

Having said that, has anyone thought to turn suspicion onto their neighbors, say, in the room across the hall?  Sneaking out past the door guard with a chest in hand would be a bit unrealistic, sure, but posting a budy at the top of the stairs as a look out while you move some things from one end of the hall to the other seems a bit more..plausible, to me.

Word.

I think if you try to sneak past the damned guard (in or out) and fail, you should get crim-flagged.  Of course, this would only stop complete newbs from getting in, but it might at least keep people from getting -out- with a ton of loot...at least in one trip.

Um, it's my belief that a total newb wouldn't get through the doorway to begin with, much less manage to either a) Make one pick last long enough to get good enough to get in, or b) get the funds to buy a buttload of picks.

That being said, getting crim-flagged wouldn't solve the problem, it would only create more. ie: Accidentally trying to go past, trying to go past and not realizing your rent is up, etc.  I would say maybe 2 -3 times within 10-15 minutes?


That being said, for the elves reading this, one GOOD thing I've seen from a burglar was on my last merchant character. I was making arrows and I would have like 20+ in one chest any time. I wasn't sure, but I think a burglar was breaking in and taking 2-3 arrows every so often. I had some decently expensive things, but they always went for the arrows, and there were so many I could never remember if I had 19 or 17 or 23 at any given time. This is a good strategy, because it supplies the burglar with a constant stream of loot, and not just a mother load haul.

Don't confuse this for me trying to say that this is the way things SHOULD be done. It's a good idea though.

[Lizzie]

Possible strategy for a burglar to NOT get caught (cause if he wants to get caught, he should be wishing up with each attempt in hopes that the doorman/guard will actually DO something about his continued entries/exits with other peoples' shit:

1. Don't go back/forth back/forth repeatedly to dump shit out of the apartment. Go in there with an idea of WHAT you want to take. Take only that, and leave.

2. LOCK the door behind you. Please remember: pick works in reverse.

[Dan]

Definately lock doors behind you.

If you can go in and take anything at any time, why leave it open for someone elses sticky fingers? Take one or two things, a mental note of what the place has and then bounce out. That way if you ever come across someone that wants a few select things, you might just know where to find it.

Take ownership of your flock. I would love to see a slum lord type character crop up here or there. If your messing around on their turf, breaking down doors where they get their own coin from there will be hell to pay. Protect the ones you steal from, or there will eventually be no one left to rob.

On top of this, people getting stolen from. If you have -that- much to be stolen, maybe you should contact some shady type people that are capable of tracking down and dealing with these mass apartment robbers. Its not like you can just go anywhere and buy a lockpick, any Guild Boss or Tunnel dweller worth his salt will keep tabs on whos buying that sort of thing.



Request- Random NPC soldier patrols through apartments. Like the automated script there is now that takes them around in huge circles, but just have that go through the apartments as well. If your caught in plain sight picking a lock they can try and arrest you.

[Marauder Moe]

If burglars were remotely good at anything but picking locks, they would probably find better things to do.  I've long been a fan of merging all the burglar shit with the pickpocket class, and calling it something else.

Really?

Burglars are an awesome class.  They're the jack of all trades.  My burglars have done fine in several professions without using the lockpick skill.


That said, I think burglary as a profession is broken.  It should be removed from the game until a more balanced system is devised, even if that means it won't come back until Arm 2.0.

What would be a more balanced system?  Unfortunately, as I understand it, I don't think the Armageddon code could easily distinguish between an intruder and an apartment's owner.  If it could, though, I guess it would be good if when you attempt to pick a lock, some sort of timer starts and the longer you remain in the area, the more likely you are to get noticed and subsequently crim-flagged.  This might encourage burglars to be quick about their business, grab only light, valuable items in plain sight, and then get the heck out of there.

There should also be virtual (or NPC) landlords that wander the hallways and re-lock opened apartments to prevent other people from just walking in to a burglarized apartment and cleaning it out.

[Cutthroat]

It [burglary as a profession] should be removed from the game until a more balanced system is devised, even if that means it won't come back until Arm 2.0.

While I agree that burglary is messed up to some extent, I think simple player awareness will suffice instead of removal while a sensible system is worked out. Why? Because there are people do break-ins responsibly, to steal or even for other reasons. The burglars who clean out entire apartments should anticipate that the hammer will be dropped upon them, because a wealthy tenant who is pissed off enough can make things happen.

There's lots of ideas for changing burglaries that float around on the GDB, but I think that burglaries that involve lock-picking should be exceedingly rare. Most burglars in our lovely real world don't know how to pick locks, and it does take a long time to do, so they look for other insecurities in a home instead. Windows, balconies and other openings in a home are easier to target, even if they do involve some dangerous climbing - well, there's the risk for you. Also, since it would look silly to be climbing a building in the daylight (gee, I wonder what that guy is climbing apartment complexes for, says the half-giant soldier) you should get crimflagged if you're spotted scaling buildings. Try climbing down again with a table, a chest and a set of chairs - I hope they land on your neck on the quick way down.

Lockpicking should be a lot harder to pull off correctly and train, and not just limited by your lockpick supply as it is now. Lockpicking should take a longer time than it does currently. It should be impossible to sneak past apartment guards to get in, since they're literally blocking the narrow way in all of the time, and this will force burglaries into being inside jobs specifically. NPC guards should walk around apartments sometimes and shout "Thief! Thief!" when they spot someone picking a lock.

[Comrade Canadia]

Normally I'm not a huge fan, of OOC behaviour being fixed by IC behaviour as I don't feel it always works but...

Take ownership of your flock. I would love to see a slum lord type character crop up here or there. If your messing around on their turf, breaking down doors where they get their own coin from there will be hell to pay. Protect the ones you steal from, or there will eventually be no one left to rob.

Honestly, this is the best thing I can think of. Player institutions should hunt down and destroy burglars who are operating as freelancers. I know that people have this romantic idea of a solo burglar, but when it comes at such a heavy expense on other players, the joy of it is lessened somewhat. Burglars are a great class in terms of a wide balance of things they can do, but yeah... burglaring other players as a way to make money is pretty broken.

And it makes sense. If people can get a huge coded advantage at the expense of roleplay, MANY will do just that. When you can haul out three chests without anyone stopping you, there's a problem. The risk vs reward in such a venture is so heavily weighted towards reward, only players who are a model of self-restraint are going to police their roleplay at the expense of so many pretties. Many do, but enough don't that we have a problem. Short of an insane mount of restrictive code which may protect players, but won't really help the realism, I'm not sure what can be done. More effective IC policing may be best option.

[jcljules]

As someone who's played a burglar in the past, albeit a short-lived one, I can say that it really sucks to be 'the good burglar' when someone like this is operating. They take everything, so there's nothing for you, and everyone who knows about you thinks that you're the twink.   

[elvenchipmunk]

If you are being robbed repeatedly, seeking out the nearest crime lord and paying a fee might help to slow down the robbings a bit. Of course it is impossible for a PC to keep track of everyone who is robbing apartments, but they can damn well try, and put an end to it when they find out.

So, paying the criminals in advance not to rob your place in the future is likely the best solution.

[brytta.leofa]

I know PCs have attempted to provide security/"protection" in the past.

[mansa]

Find out IC

[Zoan]

STOP RIGHT THERE CRIMINAL SCUM.

[jhunter]

You don't know for certain that one person cleaned out the place. I'm sure it happens and if so that's pretty piss poor rp. What happens alot of the time is that someone will break in, steal some things and then leave it open for others to come along and clean it out over a period of time.
That said, none of my burglars have ever burglarized anything. Usually they end up doing other things. Someone else called them the "jack-of-all-trades" when it comes to sneaky stuff and I completely agree.

[Synthesis]

If you are being robbed repeatedly, seeking out the nearest crime lord and paying a fee might help to slow down the robbings a bit. Of course it is impossible for a PC to keep track of everyone who is robbing apartments, but they can damn well try, and put an end to it when they find out.

So, paying the criminals in advance not to rob your place in the future is likely the best solution.

Nothing short of Imm involvement can stop an off-peak master burglar, or a master burglar who only does his dirty work off-peak.

[Dalmeth]

If burglars were remotely good at anything but picking locks, they would probably find better things to do.  I've long been a fan of merging all the burglar shit with the pickpocket class, and calling it something else.

Oh, also, burglary should be more dangerous.  As it stands, the only time I've -ever- been caught doing it was once when I -knew- someone was behind the door (because I was trying to kill them).  I think if you try to sneak past the damned guard (in or out) and fail, you should get crim-flagged.  Of course, this would only stop complete newbs from getting in, but it might at least keep people from getting -out- with a ton of loot...at least in one trip.

Better would be having the guard start watching anyone who tries to sneak past.  Make sure this form of watch doesn't break scan.  Presto.  You make it much harder to enter without sending someone immediately to jail or getting killed by overzealous guards.

[Fathi]

Personally, I wouldn't be in favour of any system that crimflagged people just for sneaking around in an apartment complex. As it stands right now, the way the staff have described sneaking isn't skulking around on your tiptoes in a dark, hooded cloak--it's trying to blend into the crowd and be as neutrally background as possible. I'd like to shy away from anything that even inches toward the act of sneaking being criminal in and of itself.

However, I agree with others in the thread that have said burglary as a profession is somewhat broken.

What I'd love to see is a system where NPC employees of Nenyuk or perhaps just freelance mercenaries can be bribed to stand guard at different places in apartment complexes, including right outisde one's door. These guards would ideally have rotating shifts so that even if you pay for protection, there's still a window of opportunity that a burglar who does his or her research can discover. And of course, if a burglar wants into a protected apartment that badly, they could always wish up and try to bribe said NPC for more or even have a partner that creates a distraction that would draw the guard's attention.

Doing this all with PCs would be even more awesome and yes I'm aware you already can, but a system with at least some rentable NPC function would be a lot easier on off-peakers and people playing in cities that aren't 'popular' at any given moment.

[Zoan]

I like this thread. Never having played a burglar who burglarizes, I would have (if I did) had gone in and ripped all your shit off, because it's what I thought was supposed to happen (having had it happen to me before. Fair game!). But reading all this makes me realize I shouldn't. All Hail GDB!

[mattrious]

These items might of been mentioned above but I'm not really in the mood to read a wall of text right now. First, there is more than one class in this game that gets the 'pick lock' skill so let's not just single out one class. Secondly, I've played sneaky sneaky classes before that didn't have the skill and was able to get into TONS of places. How? People forget to lock their doors. The burgalar's of the world do not cover their tracks properly and people go in behind them. There are a ton of different possibilities besides someone playing a class poorly.