Sneak + Light

[RogueGunslinger]

Am I assuming correctly that sneaking with a torch would be pretty much the opposite of sneaking, in a dark room?

[Eloran]

I think I've seen people with badass sneak ease into rooms with a light. Pretty unrealistic, but eh.

[number13]

Yes, you can sneak/hide in a dark room with a light source in your hand.  Any one in the room will see the light source enter, but not the person holding the light source.

No, it's not realistic in the slightest.

[Dalmeth]

I can confirm this, however, I don't feel too bad about this.

A person trying to sneak about in the dark is afflicted with the random movement.  I might suggest allowing people to sneak about in the dark normally in indoor rooms and give them appropriate penalties to sneak when holding a light.

[RogueGunslinger]

That's a great idea.

[Eloran]

Penalties? How about a 0% chance? That sounds like a fair penalty to me, seeing as how in a pitch black room, holding a light will alert even the most ignorant of individuals to your presence.

Probably the only type of persons who should remain hidden with a light source in their hand should be invisible, and even then, they should suffer a massive hit to their status due to the source of light bobbing about in the air.

[Twilight]

If it is completely dark and you are indoors, or outdoors in clear weather, I think there should be a fairly large penalty, if not an outright zero percent chance.

Caveats:

-If your light is one of many (ie crowded streets with light sources already) no penalty, you are just blending in.
-If there is a sandstorm blowing in the room, no penalty.



I think the discussion should be expanded beyond lights (although we can't really discuss it, so perhaps an I agree/disagree format of, errr, discussion).  There are a few objects so unnatural that I believe you shouldn't be able to blend in at all when using them, since anyone who caught sight of you would be staring in shock/horror.  Since hide/sneak isn't invisibility, but rather a combination of blending in and using terrain, there should be stiff negatives to sneak/hide with such items, to reflect not behind able to blend in (but you could still use the terrain, then not an outright zero chance).  

[RogueGunslinger]

The problem with making hide/sneak not work with such items, is there are places (undertuluk) that you need light to move the right direction in.

[Xygax]

The problem with making hide/sneak not work with such items, is there are places (undertuluk) that you need light to move the right direction in.

... and could therefore not sneak (your movement would be handled as walking).  It wouldn't cause paralysis or anything.

-- X

[RogueGunslinger]

Ah, but that just falls back on the randomness of the code.

Sneaking down an unlit corridor and going in the right direction should not be all that hard.

Are we just never going to be able to sneak in darkness then? Or only when we have a light in our hand?

[flurry]

I think part of the reason it's an issue is that the game seems to view light as all or nothing. I recall some discussion of levels of light for the new game, which can only help.

But in the case of something like undertuluk, where it should be pitch black, I can't imagine what a "successful" sneak/hide with a torch would look like.

[Xygax]

Sneaking through an unlit -cavern- would be hard as hell.  I've tried moving regularly through a cavern lit by modern flashlights and it isn't trivial.  I'll grant you that following a smooth man-made wall through a building in the dark wouldn't be hard....  might not be too hard to special-case the code for that.

-- X

[hyzhenhok]

Random caves aren't the only places you sneak into that get pitch black. The middle of major roads in major cities get pitch black. Old turf, where they have spent their careers, gets pitch black. Why can't the character's uncertainty of their location be modeled by their actual knowledge of the area, rather than having an iron-clad "it's dark, so you're lost" rule?

Hinging anything on the pitch-black code strikes me as rediculous because the pitch-black code itself is rediculous. Accidentally climbing down when you try to climb up because it's dark? Suddenly losing your sense of direction because a sand cloud covered the moon, even though you're on a major road that you've traversed every day for the past 20 years, and being unable to get where you're going without pulling out a torch?

Shady characters are basically unable to operate in darkness in the current model. It doesn't make any sense to me. At least they can fix it by carrying light, even though it's unrealistic. Preventing them from operating at all in dark rooms because either they have to choose between sneaking and actually reaching their destination strikes me as being close to nuts.

Fix the it's-pitch-black-so-LOL-you're-a-helpless-magikarp code, and then fix the stealthed-with-a-torch thing.

[spawnloser]

Well, the problem inherent here is that for you to sneak in the dark is an impossible means of transport.  If you're in a cave with no branches, you could walk out of the cave accidently when actually typing the directionals to go further in.  You could sneak along with your hand on one wall which would prevent you getting turned around... but no, the way darkness code works is quite unrealistic.

There are also no light levels beside 'dark' and 'lit' which is unrealistic as well.  There are light sources that shed so little light as to be hard to see from far away but that shed just enough for you to see where you're putting your feet.

Until these two unrealistic things are addressed, you're pretty much F'd if you want to sneak in the dark.

[number13]

Sneaking with a light source should work the way it currently does. The code handles it fairly well.

Hiding with a light source is a bit strange.  It's a not huge deal, and for game balance reasons it could stay as it is. It's just somewhat jarring that a PC can't see a person holding up a torch.

[Morrolan]

Seven PCs are sitting in a room.  One of them lights a torch.  There is no way to know which one without looking at all of them.

That seems strange, but I can't think of a smooth way to solve it.

[Eloran]

Treat it like a status effect.

The tall, muscular man stands here.
  -- a soft green aura emanates from the glow crystal in his hand.

The tall, muscular man stands here.
  -- heat and light radiate from the torch he wields.

[5 day lifespan]

Seven PCs are sitting in a room.  One of them lights a torch.  There is no way to know which one without looking at all of them.

That seems strange, but I can't think of a smooth way to solve it.

Well sure.  "The short, well built man is here -holding a torch"

And in a pitch black area, I can see how it would be very difficult to properly sneak.  You don't know where your feet go, uneven tiles, etc.  The lack of differing light levels is unfortunate, and the inclusion of such a code might allow for certain races or special interest groups to get "low light vision," allowing you to function in low light as though it were normal illumination.  People who have "Home town rinth" or Undertuluk might get this benefit, or even the ability to not get lost int he dark, as rangers currently do in sand storms because of this "home field advantage."

[spawnloser]

Rangers do NOT have low-light vision.  They have a sense of direction.

[5 day lifespan]

Sorry i was not more precise, but the wording about "sandstorms" was meant to be the distinction between sandstorm sense of direction and darkness sense of direction.

[jstorrie]

The source of this problem is the design of the darkness code–there isn't a distinction between shadowy nighttime and pitch blackness. City streets, especially, should generally not be pitch black; it hampers peoples' ability to do sneaky things at night-time.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Treat it like a status effect.

The tall, muscular man stands here.
  -- a soft green aura emanates from the glow crystal in his hand.

The tall, muscular man stands here.
  -- heat and light radiate from the torch he wields.

Hell yeh.

[FantasyWriter]

Treat it like a status effect.

The tall, muscular man stands here.
  -- a soft green aura emanates from the glow crystal in his hand.

The tall, muscular man stands here.
  -- heat and light radiate from the torch he wields.

Hell yeh.

That would be awesome!

[Twilight]

If you need to have your hand touching a wall to navigate, I would propose there is no way you could actually sneak.  You have a pre-determined position and route.

In populated places, while you may be familiar with things like buildings, you are not familiar with things like bodies (upright and not), changing piles of trash, parked inix, etc.  So sneaking in the dark will still be hard as hell, and involve a great deal of luck you didn't run right into something.

[Synthesis]

> arrange body Lying bloody and lifeless, ~ lies in the middle of the tunnel.

> arrange irrig Shining brightly, ~ stands erect, protruding from the bloody rectum of a dead body.

That's what you deserve if you're sneaking around with a light.