Slings and slingshots!

[Zoan]

[SMuz]

Slings are deadly weapons. They should, at the very least cause as much HP damage as daggers. But if they're really so powerful, why did people stop using them for bows? Range? I know a composite bow can do many times more damage than a sling, though. But I've never really analyzed how well crafted Zalanthan bows and crossbows were.

But arrows aren't really all that powerful.. heck, they tested a longbow against French steel, and turns out that it can't pierce it under standard force most of the time because of the inferior metal in arrows. Since most Zalanthan arrows have bone or stone tips, I don't think their piercing would be all that good. A sling bullet on the other hand, can deal heavy damage without having to pierce armor. I'm not eager to test it, but someone should put on a standard helmet, launch a razor (simulating obsidian arrows) at it, then try launching a heavy chunk of rock at it... see which one hurts more.

[brytta.leofa]

Not an expert, but I would think the piercing power of the arrow would be more related to the difficulty of compressing the entire column of arrow shaft.

[spawnloser]

A longbow, on the other hand, can put an arrow through an unarmored target from about 100 yards or meters.  Their greatest strength being that they have this power and they have accuracy at a respectable distance.  Maybe not from 100 yards/meters, but a skilled archer would ignore your armor and put that arrow (which may have a two inch or 5 cm wide cutting edge in its head) through your neck, cutting some very important things in the process.

A heavy crossbow can put a bolt through an armored target from close range, their major hindrance being poor accuracy, not power.  They could put a fist-sized hole in the equivalent of full-plate armor with a head that wasn't all that awesome.  It just has a crank on it which allows you to translate the strength of your arm into a whipsnap of force that your arm couldn't accomplish.  At close range, a heavy crossbow is scary.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for slings doing as much damage as a thrown knife plus some stun, but as much as a bow or crossbow?  You better be kidding me.  First, a heavy chunk?  Sling bullets (metal nuggets) don't weigh all that much.  They're about the size of my pinky finger from the last knuckle.  Get a rock about that big and throw it at someone.  Not a 'heavy chunk' of anything.  Sure, you could use a stone the size of a cherry tomato, and that could really hurt someone... but you aren't putting it through someone, even with the angular momentum that the sling affords you.

[Northlander]

Having had the same hobby as X-D, I'm not sure we're all talking about the same weapons. Pictures can help:

In the Israel-Palestinian conflict:
http://slinging.org/index.php?mact=Album,m5,default,1&m5albumid=7&m5returnid=53&page=53

A fine Zalanthan sling with a crafted bullet:
http://home.comcast.net/~DiazStudents/AncientAmericaIncasSling.jpg

Different-sized slings fire bullets of different sizes. Smaller bullets travel faster. Slings are awesome for the Zalanthan setting. I'd love to see staff slings in the game as well.

[spawnloser]

Those slings are a lot longer than the ones I'm familiar with.  The ones I'm familiar with, the cords are no longer than a foot.  I could see those doing a respectable amount of damage, sure.

However, that slinging.org site is goofy, if you ask me.  Those slings with cords that look like they're up to 3 feet long still have a rate of fire faster than a bow?  I think not.

[Northlander]

Those slings are a lot longer than the ones I'm familiar with.  The ones I'm familiar with, the cords are no longer than a foot.  I could see those doing a respectable amount of damage, sure.

However, that slinging.org site is goofy, if you ask me.  Those slings with cords that look like they're up to 3 feet long still have a rate of fire faster than a bow?  I think not.

Oh, no way. From my very limted experience I'd say slings should be slower than bows but take the same stamina, be harder to use but do a fair amount of damage with a whallop of stun. There should be slings of various sizes, say, warslings and staff slings as well, able to throw different sizes of stone, while doing more damage and shooting further with crafted pieces of stone. And if the slings themselves were craftable, the pouch could be braided from grass or hair or cut from leather and tied with string. And shooting them should be a separate skill.

This would make me smile, but in-game I've never seen slings used and I haven't tried them. If slings are indeed useless for anything but upping archery skill the game world would be better off entirely without them. Same goes for crossbows, by the way.

[brytta.leofa]

A unit of half-giant soldiers of Tektolnes loads many large chunks of obsidian into its long, jade-emblazoned staff sling.
A unit of half-giant soldiers of Tektolnes winds up.
The templar in a dusty blue silk hood exclaims, in sirihish,
 "To the west!  Chunks away!"


A large chunk of obsidian flies in from the up.
A large chunk of obsidian flies in from the up and strikes a human soldier of Muk Utep's neck, doing horrendous damage!
A human soldier of Muk Utep crumples to the ground.
A large chunk of obsidian flies in from the up.
A large chunk of obsidian flies in from the up.
A large chunk of obsidian flies in from the up and strikes a sunback lizard's head, doing horrendous damage!
A sunback lizard crumples to the ground.
A large chunk of obsidian flies in from the up.
A large chunk of obsidian flies in from the up.
A large chunk of obsidian flies in from the up and strikes the tall, muscular man's body, doing horrendous damage!
The tall, muscular man crumples to the ground.
A large chunk of obsidian flies in from the up.
A large chunk of obsidian flies in from the up.
A large chunk of obsidian flies in from the up.
A large chunk of obsidian flies in from the up.
The pearl-haired templar exclaims, in northern-accented sirihish,
 "Hold!  Hold the line!  Load ballistas!"

[Ourla]

http://slinging.org/index.php?mact=Album,m5,default,1&m5albumid=7&m5returnid=53&page=53

Sweet website.  "I encourage you to submit a small contribution to the website's upkeep. If you contribute over $10 (U.S.), the slinging.org team will send you a handmade sling as a token of our appreciation."  

I know what my next Secret Santa is getting.

On topic, I never gave the difference between slings/slingshots and bows much thought, but it's pretty cool to hear actual testimonies about the power possible in the weapon type.  I don't use slings/slingshots in the game because of a ridiculous code bug that my target NPCs take heavy advantage of, but I would use the hell out of them if that wasn't the case.

[janus]

I'd like, if I may, to offer my opinion on this. These are the facts as i understand them (do feel free to disagree, i got most of these facts from a tour guide during a history trip round a castle).

The longbow: Took years of training to perfect. Accurate to 250yrds plus. Metal tipped wooden shafted arrows can pierce steel chainmail up to 100 yards away (saw it done at a medieval fayre thing). Arrows are complex to make, and costly to make in quantity.

The crossbow: Shorter range than the longbow. Longer load times. Good level of proficiency with only a few days training.

The sling: Generally considered longest range (450yds plus). Uses stones or preformed clay projectiles (up to 500g), so extremely cheap. Delivers blunt force trauma.

I would offer the suggestion that

a) arrows and bolts concentrate a large force over a small impact area. I would expect such a weapon to pierce most zalanthan armor, except extremely rigid armours such as bone and obsidian plates. Slings would offer more of a smashing, blunt force consistent with a hammer blow, and more stun damage.

b)Longbows and slings were not terribly accurate over long distances, and relied more on density of fire, raining thousands of projectiles down on an enemy.

c) Crossbows were traditionally used by defending forces from up within the battlements, where they had the cover to afford the longer load times.

d) Its hard to make comparisons with real world weapons, because its hard to gauge how hard zalanthas bone and rock is.

Personally, i feel if slings were so great, they wouldn't have died out in favor of the bow. At 100 yards I would feel more in danger from a longbow than a sling. Arrows are much more aerodynamically sound than rocks.

I'd like to see slings as a weapon most effective used in quantity, firing stones 3 or 4 rooms away. Low accuracy, long, long range.

[Qzzrbl]

Personally, i feel if slings were so great, they wouldn't have died out in favor of the bow. At 100 yards I would feel more in danger from a longbow than a sling. Arrows are much more aerodynamically sound than rocks.

You say that until a fist-sized chunk of obsidian smashes through your face.

I remember once on the History Channel (I forget the name of the show) but there was one part where they talked about how badass the sling was as a weapon of war, and they demonstrated that a lone slingman could effectively kill, not just incapacitate, -kill- a target from a safe range with a single stone. They did this by setting up a suit of armor in popular use at the time (leather armor with a bone helmet, kinda Zalanthan actually), and they were able to effing "WTFOMGPWN!" the helmet with a single stone, at a distance of about fifty yards.

Slings more than likely died out to bows because of heavier metal armor. And bows just look cooler? I dunno. That's like asking why European knights primarily used swords over warhammers, even though warhammers were vastly superior in every way.

[spawnloser]

Slings as a weapon of war?  Sure.  You toss a rock into a MOB of soldiers coming at you and you're sure to hit someone.  As a hunting weapon?  Highly inaccurate.  As long as that's taken into account, I'm fine with slings being beefed up.  Otherwise you're talking about smaller slings that don't do NEARLY the damage of those big things launching fist-sized hunks of stone.

[Qzzrbl]

Slings as a weapon of war?  Sure.  You toss a rock into a MOB of soldiers coming at you and you're sure to hit someone.  As a hunting weapon?  Highly inaccurate.  As long as that's taken into account, I'm fine with slings being beefed up.  Otherwise you're talking about smaller slings that don't do NEARLY the damage of those big things launching fist-sized hunks of stone.

Slings actually started out as effective hunting weapons....

[Eloran]

Slings against critters should do fair damage.

Slings against unarmored foes should do fair damage.

Slints against armored foes should do minimal damage unless a critical strike is achieved.

[brytta.leofa]

Slings actually started out as effective hunting weapons....

Your servant has killed both the lion and the bear; this uncircumcised Philistine will be like one of them, because he has defied the armies of the living God.

[spawnloser]

Slings actually started out as effective hunting weapons....

Slings for hunting are much smaller.  They're for taking down small game, not people.

[janus]

Personally, i feel if slings were so great, they wouldn't have died out in favor of the bow. At 100 yards I would feel more in danger from a longbow than a sling. Arrows are much more aerodynamically sound than rocks.

You say that until a fist-sized chunk of obsidian smashes through your face.

Oh, I completely agree that they are a formidable weapon. But my point was at nearly twice the distance you quoted, just how accurate are they? I have used a bow, and was able to hit one of those hay circle target dealies at about 50m with about a days training and practice. I've never used a sling, but the mechanics of it would suggest, to me at least, that it wouldn't be anywhere near as accurate.

Although from what you've said about the history channel, I could be very wrong.

Slings actually started out as effective hunting weapons....

I've heard this also, although I don't know in what context. I'd find it far more believable that a group went out and pelted an animal to death, showering it from above than a lone hunter taking out an antelope with a single projectile from 75 yards.

Although never having seen a sling in action other than on TV, I have no real frame of context.

[Boggis]

Personally, i feel if slings were so great, they wouldn't have died out in favor of the bow. At 100 yards I would feel more in danger from a longbow than a sling. Arrows are much more aerodynamically sound than rocks.

They died out completely around the same time i.e. when guns started to take over. Slings grew less popular quicker however during Medieval times for a number of reasons:

1. Slings, despite their kinetic energy advantage, didn't have the same penetration power due to the larger impact area of the projectile. This wasn't an issue with unarmoured troops as were common in the early Middle Ages. Advances in Medieval armour however meant that the sling became ineffective as the armour was designed to displace the blunt force trauma of a sling bullet. Soldiers would also wear padded clothes underneath the armour to further reduce the impact. By the time full plate came along slings were completely useless and even longbows were having great difficulty in penetrating the armour which led to archery being phased out for firearms.
2. Slings take a lot of training to be used effectively. Increased urbanisation and the like led to less and less people taking up this sort of training which meant there were far fewer skilled slingers that could be called up to serve in the army.
3. Increased urbanisation meant armies were recruited from people in towns who had no experience of ranged weapons - this led to the adoption of weapons which were lethal but easier to train with and use such as the bow and crossbow.
4. Armies became more organised and grouped together more tightly. Slingers need decent space around them to operate properly and work better as loose skirmishers. Archers can fire over the row in front of them just by pointing up.
5. Ranged volleys are easier to perform with bows / crossbows which means more people getting hit at the same time.
6. Changes in siege warfare and the defences employed by fortifications meant slingers were no longer effective. Archers / crossbows could fire out slits while slingers obviously couldn't. It was also easier for an archer to fire from cover while slingers had to get out into the open which left them vulnerable.

All that being said in a Zalanthan setting slings should be far more effective. Most Zalanthan armours would not be effective at stopping / deflecting the damage dealt out by a fair-sized sling bullet. Assuming that Zalanthans adopted the improvement of using biconical shaped bullets as opposed to spherical shaped ones I'd expect sling bullets to penetrate through the armour. Against animals, unarmoured and up to medium-armoured soldiers slings have always been a very effective weapon.

[Morrolan]

4. Armies became more organised and grouped together more tightly. Slingers need decent space around them to operate properly and work better as loose skirmishers. Archers can fire over the row in front of them just by pointing up.
5. Ranged volleys are easier to perform with bows / crossbows which means more people getting hit at the same time.
6. Changes in siege warfare and the defences employed by fortifications meant slingers were no longer effective. Archers / crossbows could fire out slits while slingers obviously couldn't. It was also easier for an archer to fire from cover while slingers had to get out into the open which left them vulnerable.

This.  Especially the italicized parts.

[Boggis]

A heavy crossbow can put a bolt through an armored target from close range, their major hindrance being poor accuracy, not power.  They could put a fist-sized hole in the equivalent of full-plate armor with a head that wasn't all that awesome.  It just has a crank on it which allows you to translate the strength of your arm into a whipsnap of force that your arm couldn't accomplish.  At close range, a heavy crossbow is scary.

A battle crossbow could have up to a 1200lb draw compared to about 150lb - 200lb for an English longbow. It had a greater effective range than a longbow against armoured targets. It's accuracy was greater too as the bolt offered less air resistance. It was an accurate and powerful weapon. It's only real drawback was its sluggishness - a crossbow man might using a powerful battle crossbow would probably only get 1 shot off a minute while an experienced archer could get 15 off in that time.

Sure, you could use a stone the size of a cherry tomato, and that could really hurt someone... but you aren't putting it through someone, even with the angular momentum that the sling affords you.

Yes it will penetrate flesh once it's carved into a biconical shape. There's written accounts from Greek / Roman times when such bullets were used which described how to remove ones which had penetrated the flesh. The sling bullets used were a decent size and weighed around 50g up while the Romans used lead ones which weighed around half that. If the bullets were left in a spherical shape then it was unlikely to penetrate flesh due to the impact area being spread over a greater area and would cause blunt force trauma such as internal bleeding and crushed bones.

[Dan]

Season one of Lost the two guys standing there...

whoosh...

whooshh...

WHOOOSH!

WHAP!

Guy falls down with a rock to the head.


Im all for comparative damage, but would rather see it like this:

Bows: Damage to mostly HP. Deals those killing blows faster.
Crossbows: Decent mix HP/Stun. Higher overall damage for both, but not the major damage or stun taker.
Slings: Damage to mostly Stun. Knocks a motherfucker out.

[Eloran]

Crossbows should do nasty damage if in the same room at least.

[spawnloser]

Dude, you're wrong.  Older, primitive crossbows were NOT more accurate than a bow.  The bolt doesn't have as much to stabilize it during flight like the arrow does and as it travels, accuracy is severely affected.  Sure, it has a lot of force, but it is a closer-range weapon than a bow.

[Eloran]

Most bolts aren't fletched, correct?

[Boggis]

Dude, you're wrong.  Older, primitive crossbows were NOT more accurate than a bow.  The bolt doesn't have as much to stabilize it during flight like the arrow does and as it travels, accuracy is severely affected.  Sure, it has a lot of force, but it is a closer-range weapon than a bow.

Not wrong. I guess it depends on the era of crossbow we're talking about. Medieval crossbows were accurate weapons over short range and just as accurate as a bow out to a longbow's max range of 250 yards (incidentally slings would go to 400 yards). A longbow can be very accurate over shorter distances but since the arrow is longer and lighter it is more susceptible to the wind and other factors - it's less accurate the further it travels. A crossbow bolt would fire 350-400 yards. It's accuracy was comparable to that of a bow past a couple of hundred yards i.e. fine if you're aiming at an army of Frenchmen but good luck trying to hit a specific target. It's effective range at 200 yards was greater than that of the bow - a crossbow bolt could pierce plate at 200 yards while a longbow couldn't. Point blank range for a crossbow was 60 - 70 yards though the head of a crossbow bolt was usually inclined a little upwards as it lay on the stock of the weapon, in order that it might have a slightly rising flight at all distances at which it was used. That's not a short-range weapon. It was just a weapon that could be picked up and learned very easily to achieve a similar strike to a bow and was used as a complementary weapon to bows. It was also a lot easier to aim than a bow or sling which helped accuracy in general. If it was quick to reload it would've completely supplanted the longbow in armies. A demonstration of its all round effectiveness can be seen in that the Pope tried to get them banned from use in the field as it was good at knocking down heavily armoured knights from range - something which longbows generally couldn't do.