Slings and slingshots!

[Fathi]

As it currently stands, slings in Armageddon are little more than a low-cost archery substitute.

I'd like to see them fleshed out a little more so that they become a hunting tactic in their own right. There's heaps of historical basis for this that I'm not gonna bother posting here.

Currently, hits from slings don't seem to do much stun damage. (Or NPC stun regen is so fast that they appear to have no effect.)

What I'd love to see is a chance for a sling's projectile to have the same knock-down effect as a throwing knife, depending on variables such as hit location and stats of the person doing the slinging.

Since wood is such a precious commodity in most parts of Zalanthas, it makes sense that certain regions would develop other long-distance hunting methods aside from archery, and I'm assuming that's why these items were implemented in the first place. However, as they're currently coded, there's no real benefit to using them. Personally, I think it'd be pretty awesome from an IC cultural standpoint and an OOC newbie-hunter standpoint if they were altered juuust a wee bit and bumped into the realm of valid hunting tactic.

[Ourla]

What I'd love to see is a chance for a sling's projectile to have the same knock-down effect as a throwing knife, depending on variables such as hit location and stats of the person doing the slinging.

Aaaargh yes, this bugs me to no end.  It makes no sense whatsoever that a knife propelled by the muscle power of an arm can do far more damage than a projectile propelled by muscle power + physical momentum.

[Synthesis]

Speaking of slings and slingshots, why do CROSSBOWS suck so much?

The accuracy is shit, and it takes me as much stamina to load a single bolt as it does to fire EIGHT arrows with a bow. WTF?

[Comrade Canadia]

YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES.

Slings are a -staple- of ancient warfare. Slings are serious business, they're not dinky little toys. They kill people, and do so effectively. They should be all over the damn place. They're not the weapons bows are, but they certainly don't suck and deserve a lot more respect and use than they get. It fits the game world perfectly.

[jalden]

Slings would make a lot of sense in Nak. There are rocks everywhere, wide open spaces, and no wood.

[Eloran]

YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES.

[Gunnerblaster]

Speaking of slings and slingshots, why do CROSSBOWS suck so much?

The accuracy is shit, and it takes me as much stamina to load a single bolt as it does to fire EIGHT arrows with a bow. WTF?

Crossbows should have some pretty decent accuracy, even for untrained archers since it's pretty much just point and shoot.

I can understand the larger stamina drain, though. Your not technically supposed to hunt with crossbows. A crossbow is a military weapon meant to punch through armor. And once you load it - It's already set to go.

[FantasyWriter]

I support the OP fully! Slings should be fleshed out better.



I agree with Gunnerblaster about the crossbows as well.



Do blowguns work off archery or is that something completely different?

[Eloran]

Do blowguns work off archery or is that something completely different?

Archery.

[FantasyWriter]

Do blowguns work off archery or is that something completely different?

Archery.

Thanks, Eloran.

[5 day lifespan]

I concur.  Hell, I was fully EXPECTING slings to do stun damage, since it's a whole lot of blunt force trauma.  I was really surprised that they didnt.  I have unloaded a full belt worth of stone into targets before (not going to name the type, but they are low in HP), went to the next room, got the stones that i missed, fired all of THOSE into the target,and when I finally tracked them down, they were STILL in moderate condition.  I skinned the corpse and retrieved some 32 stones.  Obviously slings have only one real purpose, and that is for learning archery.  If they caused stun, (or better yet, STAM) i could then use them in hunting.  Imagine the joy of hunting vestric, ritikki, and other fleer's when you can knock them out or slow them down on the hunt.  This still gives great incentive to use both forms, as slings will be great for hunting, while arrows can be poisoned (likely you dont want to use poison on an animal you intend to eat...)

[Agent_137]

lol. i sent a big log and email to the imms about this a few weeks ago:

I don't mind archery not working well at my low skill level with my simple slingshot. I'm sure archery becomes very potent later with a big bow and sharp arrows. But i'm surprised it's truly pointless at any skill level and any weapon. It should at least be worth . . . something. Otherwise why practice it but to grind up to fletchery and then switch to bows?

To me, it seems realistic enough:  chunking rocks at something (especially a scrab) is not going to be as effective as firing arrows at something.  I don't think your log proves or disproves any of your assumptions, as you did not use a bow and arrow.  Regardless of strength, you're still using a slingshot to sling rocks rather than a bow to fire arrows.

[5 day lifespan]

David v Goliath.

/argument.

[FantasyWriter]

Yeah, I can see how slings would be ineffective against things with an exoskeleton.
Hitting a small-headed jozhal in the head with a fist-sized shot of granite, on the other hand, should send it to the ground.

I wonder if its possible to easily code the differentiate between the two, if the code doesn't already, that is.

[Is Friday]

Yeah, I can see how slings would be ineffective against things with an exoskeleton.
Hitting a small-headed jozhal in the head with a fist-sized shot of granite, on the other hand, should send it to the ground.

I wonder if its possible to easily code the differentiate between the two, if the code doesn't already, that is.

There is different armor types for humanoids, the question is just if they have applied these to beasties.

[X-D]

The funny part is the staff response. Proof, as I have always found, that staff often has no clue at all on weapons.

I am not trying to be mean but the only reason to use a bow over a sling is the amount of practice needed to become a danger and the room needed to use.

A bow can be used behind cover or even crouched and needs very little training to be useful.

A sling, you have to be in the open, standing and need some training.

BUT, it is actually the far more deadly weapon, specialy in war, with longer range and over all MUCH higher damge.

Long ago I learned how to make and use a traditional sling. And yes, David and Golieth is the reason.

After about three months practice I could hit a pumpkin at 50 yards 9/10 times and it would explode...very fun for a 10 year old.

By the time I was 14 I was making my own sling bullets from lead and able to hit that same pumpkin at 100 yards with enough force that the exit hole was the same size as the entrance hole. Of course I could only hit it about 6 of 10 at that range, but then I did not train every single day either.

Even today, more then 24 years later, I still practice with slings, and entertain myself at work making small slings from rags or rope laying around and plinking people around the warehouse. It only takes 1.5 times around to sling a stone BTW and I can actually load and fire and load again faster then somebody with a bow.

Slings should be even more effective IG then a bow against armored. You are imparting MANY MANY times the kinetic force. An arrow weighs maybe an ounce or so, you can sling a stone weighing nearly half a pound at near 200mph, the math on that force is HUGE, when you consider the average longbow barely propels an arrow at 200mph.

(edit)
Off topic,

The pumpkin, perfect cheap target for learning many ranged skills, including knife throwing, bows, crossbows etc and if you live in the right areas you can pick them for a good 4 months of the year woot.

[Is Friday]

Just when I thought X-D had run out of Zalanthan skillsets to branch...

[Nile]

It seems like X-D is a real life zalanthan. Congrats.

[Eloran]

Yeah. He's done everything and a master of all. I believe him 100%.

[Salt Merchant]

Slings were pretty deadly weapons of war and were used a lot in ancient times.

Staff-slings were even deadlier, although their wielders lost the ability to hold a shield at the same time.

The whole point is to extend the length of the human arm, thereby propelling the bullet much faster than it could be thrown by the arm itself. There's a reason that crafted ammunition for slings is called bullets.

[Synthesis]

Yeah. He's done everything and a master of all. I believe him 100%.

You have to translate statements from Internets-world to real world.

So for example, the statement: "I could hit pumpkins at 50 yards and they would EXPLODE" translates to, "I once managed to -hit- a pumpkin that was about 15 feet away, and it sort of fell over off the post."

[Eloran]

Oh, thanks Synthesis. That makes a little more sense now. 

[Thunkkin]

Yeah. He's done everything and a master of all. I believe him 100%.

You have to translate statements from Internets-world to real world.

So for example, the statement: "I could hit pumpkins at 50 yards and they would EXPLODE" translates to, "I once managed to -hit- a pumpkin that was about 15 feet away, and it sort of fell over off the post."

http://xkcd.com/331/

[jalden]

Really cool video about making slings from plants.  It's in spanish, but you can still see how it's done: http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=ES&hl=es&v=-ouNR6djZy4

[X-D]

Oh wait, it is the intertube! Nobody on it can possibly be telling the truth!!!

Of course I feel that way because I am a 300lbs nerd afraid to leave my PC for fear somebody would noptice me.

[Zoan]

[SMuz]

Slings are deadly weapons. They should, at the very least cause as much HP damage as daggers. But if they're really so powerful, why did people stop using them for bows? Range? I know a composite bow can do many times more damage than a sling, though. But I've never really analyzed how well crafted Zalanthan bows and crossbows were.

But arrows aren't really all that powerful.. heck, they tested a longbow against French steel, and turns out that it can't pierce it under standard force most of the time because of the inferior metal in arrows. Since most Zalanthan arrows have bone or stone tips, I don't think their piercing would be all that good. A sling bullet on the other hand, can deal heavy damage without having to pierce armor. I'm not eager to test it, but someone should put on a standard helmet, launch a razor (simulating obsidian arrows) at it, then try launching a heavy chunk of rock at it... see which one hurts more.

[brytta.leofa]

Not an expert, but I would think the piercing power of the arrow would be more related to the difficulty of compressing the entire column of arrow shaft.

[spawnloser]

A longbow, on the other hand, can put an arrow through an unarmored target from about 100 yards or meters.  Their greatest strength being that they have this power and they have accuracy at a respectable distance.  Maybe not from 100 yards/meters, but a skilled archer would ignore your armor and put that arrow (which may have a two inch or 5 cm wide cutting edge in its head) through your neck, cutting some very important things in the process.

A heavy crossbow can put a bolt through an armored target from close range, their major hindrance being poor accuracy, not power.  They could put a fist-sized hole in the equivalent of full-plate armor with a head that wasn't all that awesome.  It just has a crank on it which allows you to translate the strength of your arm into a whipsnap of force that your arm couldn't accomplish.  At close range, a heavy crossbow is scary.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for slings doing as much damage as a thrown knife plus some stun, but as much as a bow or crossbow?  You better be kidding me.  First, a heavy chunk?  Sling bullets (metal nuggets) don't weigh all that much.  They're about the size of my pinky finger from the last knuckle.  Get a rock about that big and throw it at someone.  Not a 'heavy chunk' of anything.  Sure, you could use a stone the size of a cherry tomato, and that could really hurt someone... but you aren't putting it through someone, even with the angular momentum that the sling affords you.

[Northlander]

Having had the same hobby as X-D, I'm not sure we're all talking about the same weapons. Pictures can help:

In the Israel-Palestinian conflict:
http://slinging.org/index.php?mact=Album,m5,default,1&m5albumid=7&m5returnid=53&page=53

A fine Zalanthan sling with a crafted bullet:
http://home.comcast.net/~DiazStudents/AncientAmericaIncasSling.jpg

Different-sized slings fire bullets of different sizes. Smaller bullets travel faster. Slings are awesome for the Zalanthan setting. I'd love to see staff slings in the game as well.

[spawnloser]

Those slings are a lot longer than the ones I'm familiar with.  The ones I'm familiar with, the cords are no longer than a foot.  I could see those doing a respectable amount of damage, sure.

However, that slinging.org site is goofy, if you ask me.  Those slings with cords that look like they're up to 3 feet long still have a rate of fire faster than a bow?  I think not.

[Northlander]

Those slings are a lot longer than the ones I'm familiar with.  The ones I'm familiar with, the cords are no longer than a foot.  I could see those doing a respectable amount of damage, sure.

However, that slinging.org site is goofy, if you ask me.  Those slings with cords that look like they're up to 3 feet long still have a rate of fire faster than a bow?  I think not.

Oh, no way. From my very limted experience I'd say slings should be slower than bows but take the same stamina, be harder to use but do a fair amount of damage with a whallop of stun. There should be slings of various sizes, say, warslings and staff slings as well, able to throw different sizes of stone, while doing more damage and shooting further with crafted pieces of stone. And if the slings themselves were craftable, the pouch could be braided from grass or hair or cut from leather and tied with string. And shooting them should be a separate skill.

This would make me smile, but in-game I've never seen slings used and I haven't tried them. If slings are indeed useless for anything but upping archery skill the game world would be better off entirely without them. Same goes for crossbows, by the way.

[brytta.leofa]

A unit of half-giant soldiers of Tektolnes loads many large chunks of obsidian into its long, jade-emblazoned staff sling.
A unit of half-giant soldiers of Tektolnes winds up.
The templar in a dusty blue silk hood exclaims, in sirihish,
 "To the west!  Chunks away!"


A large chunk of obsidian flies in from the up.
A large chunk of obsidian flies in from the up and strikes a human soldier of Muk Utep's neck, doing horrendous damage!
A human soldier of Muk Utep crumples to the ground.
A large chunk of obsidian flies in from the up.
A large chunk of obsidian flies in from the up.
A large chunk of obsidian flies in from the up and strikes a sunback lizard's head, doing horrendous damage!
A sunback lizard crumples to the ground.
A large chunk of obsidian flies in from the up.
A large chunk of obsidian flies in from the up.
A large chunk of obsidian flies in from the up and strikes the tall, muscular man's body, doing horrendous damage!
The tall, muscular man crumples to the ground.
A large chunk of obsidian flies in from the up.
A large chunk of obsidian flies in from the up.
A large chunk of obsidian flies in from the up.
A large chunk of obsidian flies in from the up.
The pearl-haired templar exclaims, in northern-accented sirihish,
 "Hold!  Hold the line!  Load ballistas!"

[Ourla]

http://slinging.org/index.php?mact=Album,m5,default,1&m5albumid=7&m5returnid=53&page=53

Sweet website.  "I encourage you to submit a small contribution to the website's upkeep. If you contribute over $10 (U.S.), the slinging.org team will send you a handmade sling as a token of our appreciation."  

I know what my next Secret Santa is getting.

On topic, I never gave the difference between slings/slingshots and bows much thought, but it's pretty cool to hear actual testimonies about the power possible in the weapon type.  I don't use slings/slingshots in the game because of a ridiculous code bug that my target NPCs take heavy advantage of, but I would use the hell out of them if that wasn't the case.

[janus]

I'd like, if I may, to offer my opinion on this. These are the facts as i understand them (do feel free to disagree, i got most of these facts from a tour guide during a history trip round a castle).

The longbow: Took years of training to perfect. Accurate to 250yrds plus. Metal tipped wooden shafted arrows can pierce steel chainmail up to 100 yards away (saw it done at a medieval fayre thing). Arrows are complex to make, and costly to make in quantity.

The crossbow: Shorter range than the longbow. Longer load times. Good level of proficiency with only a few days training.

The sling: Generally considered longest range (450yds plus). Uses stones or preformed clay projectiles (up to 500g), so extremely cheap. Delivers blunt force trauma.

I would offer the suggestion that

a) arrows and bolts concentrate a large force over a small impact area. I would expect such a weapon to pierce most zalanthan armor, except extremely rigid armours such as bone and obsidian plates. Slings would offer more of a smashing, blunt force consistent with a hammer blow, and more stun damage.

b)Longbows and slings were not terribly accurate over long distances, and relied more on density of fire, raining thousands of projectiles down on an enemy.

c) Crossbows were traditionally used by defending forces from up within the battlements, where they had the cover to afford the longer load times.

d) Its hard to make comparisons with real world weapons, because its hard to gauge how hard zalanthas bone and rock is.

Personally, i feel if slings were so great, they wouldn't have died out in favor of the bow. At 100 yards I would feel more in danger from a longbow than a sling. Arrows are much more aerodynamically sound than rocks.

I'd like to see slings as a weapon most effective used in quantity, firing stones 3 or 4 rooms away. Low accuracy, long, long range.

[Qzzrbl]

Personally, i feel if slings were so great, they wouldn't have died out in favor of the bow. At 100 yards I would feel more in danger from a longbow than a sling. Arrows are much more aerodynamically sound than rocks.

You say that until a fist-sized chunk of obsidian smashes through your face.

I remember once on the History Channel (I forget the name of the show) but there was one part where they talked about how badass the sling was as a weapon of war, and they demonstrated that a lone slingman could effectively kill, not just incapacitate, -kill- a target from a safe range with a single stone. They did this by setting up a suit of armor in popular use at the time (leather armor with a bone helmet, kinda Zalanthan actually), and they were able to effing "WTFOMGPWN!" the helmet with a single stone, at a distance of about fifty yards.

Slings more than likely died out to bows because of heavier metal armor. And bows just look cooler? I dunno. That's like asking why European knights primarily used swords over warhammers, even though warhammers were vastly superior in every way.

[spawnloser]

Slings as a weapon of war?  Sure.  You toss a rock into a MOB of soldiers coming at you and you're sure to hit someone.  As a hunting weapon?  Highly inaccurate.  As long as that's taken into account, I'm fine with slings being beefed up.  Otherwise you're talking about smaller slings that don't do NEARLY the damage of those big things launching fist-sized hunks of stone.

[Qzzrbl]

Slings as a weapon of war?  Sure.  You toss a rock into a MOB of soldiers coming at you and you're sure to hit someone.  As a hunting weapon?  Highly inaccurate.  As long as that's taken into account, I'm fine with slings being beefed up.  Otherwise you're talking about smaller slings that don't do NEARLY the damage of those big things launching fist-sized hunks of stone.

Slings actually started out as effective hunting weapons....

[Eloran]

Slings against critters should do fair damage.

Slings against unarmored foes should do fair damage.

Slints against armored foes should do minimal damage unless a critical strike is achieved.

[brytta.leofa]

Slings actually started out as effective hunting weapons....

Your servant has killed both the lion and the bear; this uncircumcised Philistine will be like one of them, because he has defied the armies of the living God.

[spawnloser]

Slings actually started out as effective hunting weapons....

Slings for hunting are much smaller.  They're for taking down small game, not people.

[janus]

Personally, i feel if slings were so great, they wouldn't have died out in favor of the bow. At 100 yards I would feel more in danger from a longbow than a sling. Arrows are much more aerodynamically sound than rocks.

You say that until a fist-sized chunk of obsidian smashes through your face.

Oh, I completely agree that they are a formidable weapon. But my point was at nearly twice the distance you quoted, just how accurate are they? I have used a bow, and was able to hit one of those hay circle target dealies at about 50m with about a days training and practice. I've never used a sling, but the mechanics of it would suggest, to me at least, that it wouldn't be anywhere near as accurate.

Although from what you've said about the history channel, I could be very wrong.

Slings actually started out as effective hunting weapons....

I've heard this also, although I don't know in what context. I'd find it far more believable that a group went out and pelted an animal to death, showering it from above than a lone hunter taking out an antelope with a single projectile from 75 yards.

Although never having seen a sling in action other than on TV, I have no real frame of context.

[Boggis]

Personally, i feel if slings were so great, they wouldn't have died out in favor of the bow. At 100 yards I would feel more in danger from a longbow than a sling. Arrows are much more aerodynamically sound than rocks.

They died out completely around the same time i.e. when guns started to take over. Slings grew less popular quicker however during Medieval times for a number of reasons:

1. Slings, despite their kinetic energy advantage, didn't have the same penetration power due to the larger impact area of the projectile. This wasn't an issue with unarmoured troops as were common in the early Middle Ages. Advances in Medieval armour however meant that the sling became ineffective as the armour was designed to displace the blunt force trauma of a sling bullet. Soldiers would also wear padded clothes underneath the armour to further reduce the impact. By the time full plate came along slings were completely useless and even longbows were having great difficulty in penetrating the armour which led to archery being phased out for firearms.
2. Slings take a lot of training to be used effectively. Increased urbanisation and the like led to less and less people taking up this sort of training which meant there were far fewer skilled slingers that could be called up to serve in the army.
3. Increased urbanisation meant armies were recruited from people in towns who had no experience of ranged weapons - this led to the adoption of weapons which were lethal but easier to train with and use such as the bow and crossbow.
4. Armies became more organised and grouped together more tightly. Slingers need decent space around them to operate properly and work better as loose skirmishers. Archers can fire over the row in front of them just by pointing up.
5. Ranged volleys are easier to perform with bows / crossbows which means more people getting hit at the same time.
6. Changes in siege warfare and the defences employed by fortifications meant slingers were no longer effective. Archers / crossbows could fire out slits while slingers obviously couldn't. It was also easier for an archer to fire from cover while slingers had to get out into the open which left them vulnerable.

All that being said in a Zalanthan setting slings should be far more effective. Most Zalanthan armours would not be effective at stopping / deflecting the damage dealt out by a fair-sized sling bullet. Assuming that Zalanthans adopted the improvement of using biconical shaped bullets as opposed to spherical shaped ones I'd expect sling bullets to penetrate through the armour. Against animals, unarmoured and up to medium-armoured soldiers slings have always been a very effective weapon.

[Morrolan]

4. Armies became more organised and grouped together more tightly. Slingers need decent space around them to operate properly and work better as loose skirmishers. Archers can fire over the row in front of them just by pointing up.
5. Ranged volleys are easier to perform with bows / crossbows which means more people getting hit at the same time.
6. Changes in siege warfare and the defences employed by fortifications meant slingers were no longer effective. Archers / crossbows could fire out slits while slingers obviously couldn't. It was also easier for an archer to fire from cover while slingers had to get out into the open which left them vulnerable.

This.  Especially the italicized parts.

[Boggis]

A heavy crossbow can put a bolt through an armored target from close range, their major hindrance being poor accuracy, not power.  They could put a fist-sized hole in the equivalent of full-plate armor with a head that wasn't all that awesome.  It just has a crank on it which allows you to translate the strength of your arm into a whipsnap of force that your arm couldn't accomplish.  At close range, a heavy crossbow is scary.

A battle crossbow could have up to a 1200lb draw compared to about 150lb - 200lb for an English longbow. It had a greater effective range than a longbow against armoured targets. It's accuracy was greater too as the bolt offered less air resistance. It was an accurate and powerful weapon. It's only real drawback was its sluggishness - a crossbow man might using a powerful battle crossbow would probably only get 1 shot off a minute while an experienced archer could get 15 off in that time.

Sure, you could use a stone the size of a cherry tomato, and that could really hurt someone... but you aren't putting it through someone, even with the angular momentum that the sling affords you.

Yes it will penetrate flesh once it's carved into a biconical shape. There's written accounts from Greek / Roman times when such bullets were used which described how to remove ones which had penetrated the flesh. The sling bullets used were a decent size and weighed around 50g up while the Romans used lead ones which weighed around half that. If the bullets were left in a spherical shape then it was unlikely to penetrate flesh due to the impact area being spread over a greater area and would cause blunt force trauma such as internal bleeding and crushed bones.

[Dan]

Season one of Lost the two guys standing there...

whoosh...

whooshh...

WHOOOSH!

WHAP!

Guy falls down with a rock to the head.


Im all for comparative damage, but would rather see it like this:

Bows: Damage to mostly HP. Deals those killing blows faster.
Crossbows: Decent mix HP/Stun. Higher overall damage for both, but not the major damage or stun taker.
Slings: Damage to mostly Stun. Knocks a motherfucker out.

[Eloran]

Crossbows should do nasty damage if in the same room at least.

[spawnloser]

Dude, you're wrong.  Older, primitive crossbows were NOT more accurate than a bow.  The bolt doesn't have as much to stabilize it during flight like the arrow does and as it travels, accuracy is severely affected.  Sure, it has a lot of force, but it is a closer-range weapon than a bow.

[Eloran]

Most bolts aren't fletched, correct?

[Boggis]

Dude, you're wrong.  Older, primitive crossbows were NOT more accurate than a bow.  The bolt doesn't have as much to stabilize it during flight like the arrow does and as it travels, accuracy is severely affected.  Sure, it has a lot of force, but it is a closer-range weapon than a bow.

Not wrong. I guess it depends on the era of crossbow we're talking about. Medieval crossbows were accurate weapons over short range and just as accurate as a bow out to a longbow's max range of 250 yards (incidentally slings would go to 400 yards). A longbow can be very accurate over shorter distances but since the arrow is longer and lighter it is more susceptible to the wind and other factors - it's less accurate the further it travels. A crossbow bolt would fire 350-400 yards. It's accuracy was comparable to that of a bow past a couple of hundred yards i.e. fine if you're aiming at an army of Frenchmen but good luck trying to hit a specific target. It's effective range at 200 yards was greater than that of the bow - a crossbow bolt could pierce plate at 200 yards while a longbow couldn't. Point blank range for a crossbow was 60 - 70 yards though the head of a crossbow bolt was usually inclined a little upwards as it lay on the stock of the weapon, in order that it might have a slightly rising flight at all distances at which it was used. That's not a short-range weapon. It was just a weapon that could be picked up and learned very easily to achieve a similar strike to a bow and was used as a complementary weapon to bows. It was also a lot easier to aim than a bow or sling which helped accuracy in general. If it was quick to reload it would've completely supplanted the longbow in armies. A demonstration of its all round effectiveness can be seen in that the Pope tried to get them banned from use in the field as it was good at knocking down heavily armoured knights from range - something which longbows generally couldn't do.

[Thunkkin]

And also why crossbowmen were often kill-on-sight when captured. 

[Dalmeth]

Note on crossbows : the numbers you folks are digging up are based on constructions made of iron.  Not only that, but crossbows with the craftsmanship necessary to get anywhere close to the forces you mention are likely works of art in themselves.  The expense would be enormous, which is currently not seen in much of any weapons on Zalanthas.  Let's not even talk about maintenance.

At those times, owning a well-crafted weapon of war was equivalent in expense to owning a sportscar.  It was your life in more ways than one.

As for slings, keep the current ones as they are but introduce another set of longer slings that can fire heavier stones.  Give those the increase to damage and penalty to damage as mentioned here in this thread.

Someone write up the slings and the larger bullet objects.  Sadly, I don't think current objects can be cross-classified as the larger bullets.

[aphex]

Writing up a new sling doesn't change the fact that slings, in their current incarnation, are the total suck compared to bows, long and short. (which are the only truly 'viable' archery weapon at the moment. gimme a break xbows)

This is a balance thing. Slings just need to be altogether more powerful or offer coded advantages against targets with certain types of armor. Slings are weapons that survived THOUSANDS OF YEARS OF USE on Earth, and did a damn fine job until a few epochs passed.

A trained soldier (or even a sheep herd who's spent a lot of time with his handy sling fending off wolves) is accurate, and is deadly, in either one on one or group combat situations.

As for slings, keep the current ones..

Why are we doing this again? Keeping something that's useless code-wise? Oh. Skill upping archery?

[Boggis]

Note on crossbows : the numbers you folks are digging up are based on constructions made of iron.  Not only that, but crossbows with the craftsmanship necessary to get anywhere close to the forces you mention are likely works of art in themselves.  The expense would be enormous, which is currently not seen in much of any weapons on Zalanthas.  Let's not even talk about maintenance.

True enough but even the Gastraphetes in Ancient Greece had a range of 300 yards or so. That's a relatively simple design, was made virtually without metal bar reinforcing some ratchets on the sides and out-ranged contemporary bows by approx. 70 yards and was accurate enough to clear defenders from city walls at that range. Later in Medieval times armies had whole units of equipped with crossbows and while they wouldn't have had the power of a true work of art they did the job against knights just fine and mustn't have cost -that- much or armies would've just paid for people to train day in day out with bows.

Maybe while we're at it we could get the Chinese repeating crossbow which dates from 2,000 years ago written up too:


I had a go with one of these in China before. Not much power in it but so easy to fire off tons of bolts very quickly.

[hyzhenhok]

Crossbows should be low-skill, high-power weapons that only have the drawback of being slow to reload. They should be coded that a guild_warrior can pick them up and use them without having to branch archery first. To counter this, they should be military-only weapons that only soldiers are allowed to carry.

Bows and slings should both be useful and powerful and both require a large degree of practice. The only real difference, for the sake of simplicity, should be that one deals piercing damage and the other deals blunt damage.

[SMuz]

Well, just offering another POV on the debate.. it is a fantasy game after all. And in a fantasy game, you can have a dwarf tossing a small chunk of obsidian at your face. A HG would be able to sling a large chunk of obsidian through someone's skull.

[5 day lifespan]

My initial belief stands.  Slings should do near as much damage as arrows, with the balance in stun.  Arrows can be poisoned.  Crossbows, much like axes, should do HP and armor damage.  The big prohibiting factor can be cost and likelyhood of breaking (or ditch that part if there isn't a weapon repair ability.)

[jmordetsky]

The pumpkin, perfect cheap target for learning many ranged skills, including knife throwing, bows, crossbows etc and if you live in the right areas you can pick them for a good 4 months of the year woot.

All i ask for is throw knife pumpkin so I can practice throw ala gangs of new york.

add keyword Amsterdam
say (thumbing his nose) Lord, place the steel of the Holy Spirit in my spine and the love of the Virgin Mary in my heart.

[Comrade Canadia]

The problem with crossbows isn't that Zalanthians would lack the technology. The problem, for me, is that they don't fit the aesthetic. Weaponry in Zalanthas should all be conforming to a theme appropriate to the various cultures and the materials said cultures have available, not random weapons that look cool that suddenly can be made out of bone and obsidian. But, honestly, whatever. Keep the crossbows. The mentality behind ditching crossbows would apply to around half of the weapons we already have. Just toss slings on the pile, please!

[jmordetsky]

The problem with crossbows isn't that Zalanthians would lack the technology. The problem, for me, is that they don't fit the aesthetic. Weaponry in Zalanthas should all be conforming to a theme appropriate to the various cultures and the materials said cultures have available, not random weapons that look cool that suddenly can be made out of bone and obsidian. But, honestly, whatever. Keep the crossbows. The mentality behind ditching crossbows would apply to around half of the weapons we already have. Just toss slings on the pile, please!

Anything can be made of half-giant hair. ANYTHING!

[Jdr]

It is Zalanthas' duct tape.

[FantasyWriter]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ieWrWLjii0

Its a hand-held slingshot but still.

[roughneck]

We need to get Eustace Conway on here to solve these discrepancies.

My opinion, based purely on speculation is this:

For the hunter a bow would be superior for big game as you're abe to make something bleed and as it slowly bleeds it, track it to the place it dies and skin it.  You can't kill a moose with a sling because you can't kill it with one shot.  For smaller game, slings would rule.

Although I believe there's a part in the Bible in 1 or 2 Samuel where it talks about David killing a lion or a bear with a sling.  He also killed a lion with his bare hands in there.

In war I see bows being advantageous because of the ability to have a hundred archers fire volleys and rain death on large areas of their foes.  I'm not a physicist but I imagine that firing an arrow on a steep angle like that it's going to pick up a lot more speed falling back to the ground than it would if you fired it in a straight line, unless you were fairly close.  Even compound bow hunters don't get -that- far away because they fire in straight lines.  I've never seen the volley tactic done used on Zalanthas however and there's obviously no way to codedly do it either.

Last Ranger I played could drop a Jozhal with five or less stones very consistently before he even branched archery.  Set up loading it with a macro or trigger and it becomes a very inexpensive and useful means of hunting.  It is useless for combat right now though, and I'd love to see it become a more viable that way.

Bows will -always- have a place in Zalanthan war because of an arrow's ability to deliver poison which is a big part of combat and war in armageddon which is extremely cool imo.   We never have to worry about bows being totally displaced by a cheap supbstitute so bring it on!  Badass sling pain.

[FantasyWriter]

history channel: longbow v. crossbow
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HagCuGXJgUs


The first clip of a full episode on the long bow. (also from history channel):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JaZ6pQiYclo&feature=PlayList&p=EE5978BAC2CF6E56&index=34


Can't find any good documentaries on slings yet

[Is Friday]

They tested Roman slings in Deadliest Warrior iirc.

[X-D]

I like the history channel one.

51 seconds, 10 arrows...Did not seem even winded to me...oddly, in arm that could cost you the same stam as running three miles through the sand...go figure.

[musashi]

Last Ranger I played could drop a Jozhal with five or less stones very consistently before he even branched archery. 

wait ... what?

[roughneck]

Last Ranger I played could drop a Jozhal with five or less stones very consistently before he even branched archery. 

wait ... what?

I'd be interested to know if other people who've played rangers with an high archery skill performed like, but my pc carried a sling around for low hp critters all the time - largely just because I thought they were fun to use and emote with.  The problem is by the time you get decent enough to do it you could drop the same critter with one or two arrows anyways.

[Pale Horse]

Last Ranger I played could drop a Jozhal with five or less stones very consistently before he even branched archery. 

wait ... what?

I'd be interested to know if other people who've played rangers with an high archery skill performed like, but my pc carried a sling around for low hp critters all the time - largely just because I thought they were fun to use and emote with.  The problem is by the time you get decent enough to do it you could drop the same critter with one or two arrows anyways.

I think he's actually referring to the fact that you said your ranger "branched archery" ...a skill that all guild_rangers get at creation.

[musashi]

Last Ranger I played could drop a Jozhal with five or less stones very consistently before he even branched archery. 

wait ... what?

I'd be interested to know if other people who've played rangers with an high archery skill performed like, but my pc carried a sling around for low hp critters all the time - largely just because I thought they were fun to use and emote with.  The problem is by the time you get decent enough to do it you could drop the same critter with one or two arrows anyways.

I think he's actually referring to the fact that you said your ranger "branched archery" ...a skill that all guild_rangers get at creation.

Yeah, that.

[Qzzrbl]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uk9FewFIvdM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4yLBBwDqyPE&feature=related

Not even metal armor on Zalanthas could stand up to a skilled sling-wielder with rocks....

[Qzzrbl]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zCxgOUcUU-g

For help with emotes, if you're a sling user IG.

[FantasyWriter]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXFgvdqwaU0&feature=related

Grey Forest ranger/weapons crafter.

[brytta.leofa]

I'm not a physicist but I imagine that firing an arrow on a steep angle like that it's going to pick up a lot more speed falling back to the ground than it would if you fired it in a straight line, unless you were fairly close.

That isn't really correct.  The energy imparted by falling will never be greater than the energy it took to shoot it up in the first place, plus you'll lose a little energy from air resistance. 

The advantage of shooting up is that you get longer range.  The arrow will drop a certain distance for every unit of flight time.  If you shoot it level, your range is limited by how far it can go before it drops all the way to the ground.  Shooting at a higher angle (within reason) increases the available drop distance far more than it lengthens the trajectory to the target.

I've never seen the volley tactic done used on Zalanthas however and there's obviously no way to codedly do it either.

There are units of archers, but AFAIK they can only be targeted at a single gemmer at once.

[roughneck]

Last Ranger I played could drop a Jozhal with five or less stones very consistently before he even branched archery. 

wait ... what?

I'd be interested to know if other people who've played rangers with an high archery skill performed like, but my pc carried a sling around for low hp critters all the time - largely just because I thought they were fun to use and emote with.  The problem is by the time you get decent enough to do it you could drop the same critter with one or two arrows anyways.

I think he's actually referring to the fact that you said your ranger "branched archery" ...a skill that all guild_rangers get at creation.

Yeah, that.

I meant branched archery into the skills it leads to, pardon me for the misunderstanding  .

I'm not a physicist but I imagine that firing an arrow on a steep angle like that it's going to pick up a lot more speed falling back to the ground than it would if you fired it in a straight line, unless you were fairly close.

That isn't really correct.  The energy imparted by falling will never be greater than the energy it took to shoot it up in the first place, plus you'll lose a little energy from air resistance. 

The advantage of shooting up is that you get longer range.  The arrow will drop a certain distance for every unit of flight time.  If you shoot it level, your range is limited by how far it can go before it drops all the way to the ground.  Shooting at a higher angle (within reason) increases the available drop distance far more than it lengthens the trajectory to the target.

I've never seen the volley tactic done used on Zalanthas however and there's obviously no way to codedly do it either.

There are units of archers, but AFAIK they can only be targeted at a single gemmer at once.

I humbly thank you for clearing that up   

[Xio]

Besides slings dealing a heavy amount of force and such in their own right. I know some slings used for war were also attached to poles, to increase velocity. Usually referred to as staff slings. They are much stronger than the normal sling and offer a greater range (Not to mention that normal slings have a greater range than longbows used back in older times) and can be used with heavier ammunition. Only downside is that it requires two hands so a slinger wouldn't be able to use a shield at the same time, but the staff doubles as a weapon in close quarters. Also I'd like to mention that staff slings have atleast the same accuracy as normal slings, if not better, when used properly.

[Qzzrbl]

Huh.... Apparently darts can be launched from slingshots too?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QwdZsraz_I4&feature=related

[Bilanthri]

I'm not a physicist but I imagine that firing an arrow on a steep angle like that it's going to pick up a lot more speed falling back to the ground than it would if you fired it in a straight line, unless you were fairly close.

That isn't really correct.  The energy imparted by falling will never be greater than the energy it took to shoot it up in the first place, plus you'll lose a little energy from air resistance. 

The advantage of shooting up is that you get longer range.  The arrow will drop a certain distance for every unit of flight time.  If you shoot it level, your range is limited by how far it can go before it drops all the way to the ground.  Shooting at a higher angle (within reason) increases the available drop distance far more than it lengthens the trajectory to the target.

I've never seen the volley tactic done used on Zalanthas however and there's obviously no way to codedly do it either.

There are units of archers, but AFAIK they can only be targeted at a single gemmer at once.

At 45 degrees, your projectile will reach it's maximum range, regardless of the method for firing. Aside from a need to hit targets at maximum range, the biggest reason that ancient archer squads fired at 45 degrees or greater was so a volley of arrows could be placed indirectly among a group of soldiers. By using indirect fire (lobbing) a group of archers could avoid the problem of having all their arrows hit the front line, literally overkilling and wasting arrows. This also allowed archers to stand in ranks and still all fire in unison. Also, using a spotter, archers could employ this tactic to fire volleys over fortifications into attacking ranks (See Battle of Helm's Deep).

As for the damage capability of slings vs bows/crossbows, the physics behind the force is what matters. Bullets, both the sling and firearm variety, function on blunt force trauma and the effects of hydrostatic shock. The projectile literally crushes its way through the flesh, imparting a great deal of kinetic energy on a cellular level. A bullet that stops inside a body will cause far more damage than one that passes through because all the energy was channeled into the (incompressible) fluids of the flesh, rupturing cell membranes and causing standard injury shock. <= very deadly

Pointed projectiles, on the other hand, require far less kinetic energy, which is why they tend to be lighter than a comparably damaging sling stone. The energy here is used to enforce the separating of flesh, rather than crushing, and the majority of the damage from an arrow comes from the channel it creates into which the target will then bleed profusely.

I agree that sling stones should do more stun than arrows, as shock tends to drop things faster than bleeding, with far less apparent damage (without medical attention, a broken arm can result in shock and lead to death as the body begins failing). There are a lot of specific factors that would be a bit over the top to implement, but, realistically, both projectiles are equally deadly.