Who C

[mansa]

Why don't you have a psionic skill that searches the known world for family members within your tribe, and lets you know if you can touch their mind with a full contact?

So who c with a different name?

Sure!  One that actually uses psionic skills and causes stun loss.

Oops... I get it now, and I like it.  
Instead of "clans" maybe you could have a list of, for example, the ten people you are closest to that you can "ping."
It wouldn't make much sense for a new recruit to be able to automatically find every member of the clan psionically.

There is thousands of different things you can code to mimic the intention of the code - which is to allow players within clans to more easily play with each other.
I prefer an In-Character skill rather than an OOC tool, because that allows the other players of the game to interact with them, because they are acting in game.
I'd prefer that everybody has access to these skills (or bonuses) as soon as they join any clan.

[titansfan]

AAAAhhhhhhh! I didn't get what you meant either. That's a dandy idea.

[a strange shadow]

The flaw in your logic is that it is not IC that someone would be logged off.

Logging in and logging out is a necessary OOC construct in a game where characters are animated by people with real lives.

Therefore a tool to figure out whether or not they are online is an OOC tool.

I don't care if it's called who_c, ping, findmesomebodytofuckinginteractwith, or whatever. I just want to see a way for characters to be able to hook up with other characters that are, IC, always around your character, and are, for OOC reasons, occasionally not.

When you're in an ISO tribe of under 5 people and can't travel for whatever reason until you've got one other person on but don't have the time to sit around idling all goddamn day, who c is an incredible blessing, because you can log in and check. So that you can interact. It facilitated interaction and brought players together, and that to me far oughtweighs some crying about unrealistic use or abuse.

If it's being abused somehow, fix the flaw, don't scrap the whole thing because of one bad part. If others were crying that it was unfair, why not just let them have who_c too? What's it going to hurt? Somebody actually knows that somebody else in their clan can be found?

Oh, NO.

[mansa]

The flaw in your logic is that it is not IC that someone would be logged off.

Logging in and logging out is a necessary OOC construct in a game where characters are animated by people with real lives.

Therefore a tool to figure out whether or not they are online is an OOC tool.

I don't care if it's called who_c, ping, findmesomebodytofuckinginteractwith, or whatever. I just want to see a way for characters to be able to hook up with other characters that are, IC, always around your character, and are, for OOC reasons, occasionally not.

When you're in an ISO tribe of under 5 people and can't travel for whatever reason until you've got one other person on but don't have the time to sit around idling all goddamn day, who c is an incredible blessing, because you can log in and check. So that you can interact. It facilitated interaction and brought players together, and that to me far oughtweighs some crying about unrealistic use or abuse.

If it's being abused somehow, fix the flaw, don't scrap the whole thing because of one bad part. If others were crying that it was unfair, why not just let them have who_c too? What's it going to hurt? Somebody actually knows that somebody else in their clan can be found?

Oh, NO.

http://www.armageddon.org/cgi-bin/help_index/show_help?contact

Psi Contact     (Communication)

The contact command will allow your character to attempt to establish a direct mental link with another person in the world. It is necessary to create this link in order to perform a majority of psi commands, and in order to cast some powerful spells. Contacting others is a skill that only increases with practice. The cease command is used to sever the psionic link.

Contacts can be blocked by psionic barriers, sleep, and areas of magickal suppression. As with all sustained psionic powers, the cease command will cut the mental link. The duration of a direct mental link is dependent upon your character's wisdom attribute and skill proficiency.

Syntax:
    contact <keyword> [keyword+]
    -or-
    contact #.keyword

    psi <message>
    cease

    Examples:
    > contact plain brown human

    > contact 3.stubby

    > contact Boopsie
    > psi How's it going, milord?
    > cease

    Note:
    Getting the message that you cannot reach their mind is a normal
    occurrence. You may lack sufficient skill with the Way to find their
    mind, or that person may not be available. You do not need to know
    someone's name in order to contact them -- one or more keywords can
    be specified instead.

    You can only specify a number argument as the first argument, and
    if you do, any extra keywords you specified will be ignored.

    Some players choose to portray images or their own feelings over
    a psionic link and this is allowed. However, forcing emotions,
    sensations, or thoughts onto the receiver is not acceptable.

    See also:
    cease, contact, Psionics

[a strange shadow]

Cute helpfile, I believe I and others already explained why using 'contact' is not a fully suitable replacement.

Multiple times, even.

I'm out.

[X-D]

If who c was a skill, with delay, stun loss and advancement AND showed sdesc I'd be fine with it.

But the just removed incarnation revealed FAR too much information. Abused often I'm sure.

And as it stands, I only think ONE clan should even get a skill version of it.

Happy it is gone, hated it in every clan I've played that had it and it was actually the main factor keeping me from rejoining any of those clans.

[FantasyWriter]

Agreed, I support and IC based who-c-like thingy 100%.


What about something like this...
My PC 'Lou' meets 'Kate' and trades with her quite a bit, so wants to know when she gets online.

Code Select Expand



>addsense kate (she has to be in the room)
>You will now sense when the tall, dark-headed woman awakens.

<kate logs on>
You sense the tall, dark-headed woman becoming aware.



You could add a time delay so that everyone doesn't sense her at the same time or even at all based on skill-level and distance.
You could also log off with barrier up (barrier already stays on through log-out) if you didn't want people to know when you logged in.

[mansa]

Cute helpfile, I believe I and others already explained why using 'contact' is not a fully suitable replacement.

Multiple times, even.

I'm out.

The only reasons people have said why using CONTACT is not fully suitable is that CONTACT is not 100% fail resistant, and it takes -time- to contact people.

However, if you have more than 2 days playing time, you can contact anything within 2-3 tries.
If you tried to contact a group of 5 people, it would take you approximately 3 minutes of your time.

The only reason why one would want who c, then, is because one doesn't want to spend 3 minutes in game to see if anybody is around.  One just want to log in, type who c, see nobody is around, and then log out.  

Unless someone else has said something else about the contact skill being broken or not functioning as it's supposed to?

[Sephiroto]

R.I.P. who c

We're gonna miss him.  We are gonna miss him.

[Xio]

There is thousands of different things you can code to mimic the intention of the code - which is to allow players within clans to more easily play with each other.
I prefer an In-Character skill rather than an OOC tool, because that allows the other players of the game to interact with them, because they are acting in game.
I'd prefer that everybody has access to these skills (or bonuses) as soon as they join any clan.

Ok, I think that's dumb. Just because its a command not directly linked to an actual skill you have to train, I don't see what that has to do with anything. Why do the Admins have to walk you through the immersion? At first it may be jarring and remind you your playing a game (i mean c'mon, you are typing in everything you do, a typo makes me go 'Oh this is a game!' but its not like i didn't know that when I logged on, doesn't detract from the RP and how fun it is for me). I don't see why you can't take that, find some kind of IC explanation to it, and RP that. What is the skills list? An ooc tool, or your char stopping and going 'Hmm, what am I good at that applies to this situation?' Personally, I think you need to broaden your imagination some. Just because the Imms don't spell it out for you in plain letters, why not come up with your own solution and if its something you're not all that sure about, run it by them? Reaching out and detecting all the minds of everyone in your clan with psionics sounds like something a mindworm would be doing, not a fresh recruit who has trouble finding his sergeant's mind when they're two cords apart. Besides, who hasn't seen someone log on, run around their clan's 'headquarters' then check all the local hovels in one fell swoop and log right back off because they found no one. Instead of them wasting 10 minutes of their time as they would've logged off anyway, why not let them spend 10 seconds online to peek at who c and be like 'Ok, I'll just play when I get off work in an hour then.' I see nothing wrong with Who C. And if logging on then logging back off is considered abuse we need to redefine that word. I really don't see the need to make Who C 'ic'. There's no real IC way to explain someone logging off, you always have to make up some excuse or use the elusive 'They're not around' which technically doesn't magically make their mind unfindable.

That's how I feel, I don't expect anyone to go 'Oh yea, there's no real point to making who c IC.' Putting in another skill I have to train and get stun drain and delay over defeats the main purpose I would even want who c back in. Hell, I don't even understand why a 40 year old char, who is considered brand new via the code, sucks at psionics. What kid isn't using that all the time to keep in touch with parents and friends to the point they're pretty damn good at it? But i'm not gonna derail the thread to go there, just want to clarify my thinking a bit more.

[mansa]

Ok, I think that's dumb. Just because its a command not directly linked to an actual skill you have to train, I don't see what that has to do with anything.

The ability to know exactly who is online is a skill in game.  (contact)

It is something the immortals have 'limited', in that you can only contact one person at a time.

If the immortals didn't care if you knew who was online, the MUD would have a global who command, which shows -EVERYBODY- online.  Obviously, they do care, and they have removed it / modified it to simply show a number.

Who Clan was very similar to the old Global Who, except that it only showed people in your clan.  It looked like this, if I can recall:

>who c
Halflings of the Grey Forest
===============================================
Sasha                the bright-eyed halfling
Memo                 the silver-haired halfling
Supra                the halfling with hair
===============================================
3 players online.

It showed who was online, their TRUE name, and their short description.

With that information, you can abuse it.  You now know that Supra has the sdesc, 'the halfling with hair'.  You might have never interacted with Supra, but you now know who they are.
You know they are online at this moment.  

1) You lose the roleplay moments of not knowing if someone is online or alive, if they previously contacted you and said, 'HELP ME OMG'.  The player will constantly spam 'Who C' to see if they remain alive, as they try and run to the area to rescue them.  
2) Players will get poisoned, and then type 'Who C', and then contact the people online and say, 'BRING ME CURES NOW'.
3) If you got recruited into the Arm of the Dragon as a spy, and the name you gave the templar was Joe, but when the templar's player typed 'Who C', he will not see Joe, but he'll see Bob.  

This is IC information he has learned using an OOC Tool.

These are problems with the current code of Who C.  Hopefully, they won't come up again.

Why do the Admins have to walk you through the immersion? At first it may be jarring and remind you your playing a game (i mean c'mon, you are typing in everything you do, a typo makes me go 'Oh this is a game!' but its not like i didn't know that when I logged on, doesn't detract from the RP and how fun it is for me). I don't see why you can't take that, find some kind of IC explanation to it, and RP that.

The Admins have crafted ArmageddonMUD to be a fully-immersive roleplaying game.  They have removed names in short-descriptions.  They have a limited who command.  They have no global channels.   See reasons listed as to why Who C was 'cheating'.

What is the skills list? An ooc tool, or your char stopping and going 'Hmm, what am I good at that applies to this situation?'

The skill list -is- an OOC Tool, to tell you about your character.   But it doesn't give you an advantage over other players of the game, and 'Who C' did, via the 3 examples I listed above.

Personally, I think you need to broaden your imagination some. Just because the Imms don't spell it out for you in plain letters, why not come up with your own solution and if its something you're not all that sure about, run it by them?

I'm not quite sure what you are talking about here.  Could you explain it to me?  I'm a little slow sometimes

Reaching out and detecting all the minds of everyone in your clan with psionics sounds like something a mindworm would be doing, not a fresh recruit who has trouble finding his sergeant's mind when they're two cords apart.

Sure.  I was trying to be creative in a possible alternative to the 'who c' command, which has been removed.  Can you think of any other ideas that might be created, to mimic the intent of the 'who c' code without being as broken as it was?

Besides, who hasn't seen someone log on, run around their clan's 'headquarters' then check all the local hovels in one fell swoop and log right back off because they found no one. Instead of them wasting 10 minutes of their time as they would've logged off anyway, why not let them spend 10 seconds online to peek at who c and be like 'Ok, I'll just play when I get off work in an hour then.'

If someone runs across the city, they have a chance of interacting with ANYBODY along the way.

If someone logs in and types 'who c', and then logs out, they have a 0 chance of interacting with anybody.

I see nothing wrong with Who C.

See three examples above.

And if logging on then logging back off is considered abuse we need to redefine that word.

ArmageddonMUD requires players to play characters with each other.  You're not really playing the game, then.  You're taking up a 'slot' in a clan that other players might want to play, and you're -not- playing that character.

I really don't see the need to make Who C 'ic'. There's no real IC way to explain someone logging off, you always have to make up some excuse or use the elusive 'They're not around' which technically doesn't magically make their mind unfindable.

How does everybody else in all the other clans explain it?  Everybody else has to make up reasons as to why their boss isn't around.

That's how I feel, I don't expect anyone to go 'Oh yea, there's no real point to making who c IC.' Putting in another skill I have to train and get stun drain and delay over defeats the main purpose I would even want who c back in. Hell, I don't even understand why a 40 year old char, who is considered brand new via the code, sucks at psionics. What kid isn't using that all the time to keep in touch with parents and friends to the point they're pretty damn good at it? But i'm not gonna derail the thread to go there, just want to clarify my thinking a bit more.

I understand what you're saying, but to me, spending 3-5 minutes using the contact skill VASTLY outweighs the harms that the WHO C command brought into the game.


::edited to strike-out wrong information.  Who C did not show true name::

[Fathi]

I agree with those who have stated that Who C revealed a little too much information. However, I don't quite see that as a reason to entirely scrap the command.

Personally, I think a good compromise would be to retain the command, but to have it only show a tally of how many people in your clan(s) are online.

It wouldn't reveal any IC information, but it could still be used as a tool to facilitate interaction by people in isolated tribes and clans.

Like Mansa said, Armageddon is a fully-immersiive roleplaying game. But it's still a game, which means there are OOC aspects that have to be taken into account. PCs logging in and out is one of those things. I don't have anything against giving the players a few more OOC tools (like our current global who command) to facilitate RP.

[HTX]

1) You lose the roleplay moments of not knowing if someone is online or alive, if they previously contacted you and said, 'HELP ME OMG'.  The player will constantly spam 'Who C' to see if they remain alive, as they try and run to the area to rescue them.

This is the only reason I'm a bit "meh" with the who c command.

The only possible solution I can think of is only updating the who c command every, say, 5-15 minutes. So in such a situation the best way to figure out if your buddy is still alive is by psionics (or stumbling upon their body), not spamming 'who c', as it currently is already. Also, who c shouldn't display real names, just short descriptions as previously mentioned.

[Dan]

who

There are 57 players other than yourself online.
There are 3 clan members other than yourself online.

Would that help?

[Grey Area]

Personally, I think a good compromise would be to retain the command, but to have it only show a tally of how many people in your clan(s) are online.

It wouldn't reveal any IC information, but it could still be used as a tool to facilitate interaction by people in isolated tribes and clans.

who

There are 57 players other than yourself online.
There are 3 clan members other than yourself online.

Would that help?

If you absolutely gotta have a who -c, this would be the version I can live with.

[Myhrrn]

Personally, I think a good compromise would be to retain the command, but to have it only show a tally of how many people in your clan(s) are online.

It wouldn't reveal any IC information, but it could still be used as a tool to facilitate interaction by people in isolated tribes and clans.

who

There are 57 players other than yourself online.
There are 3 clan members other than yourself online.

Would that help?

If you absolutely gotta have a who -c, this would be the version I can live with.

* Approve *

[Cutthroat]

Yeah, nothing more than the number would be perfect.

There were other problems with 'who c' too, like being able to tell who put up a barrier when you see:

bob - the happy man
joe - the hairy man
sam - the sad man

There are three players other than yourself.

Then a few minutes later, sam puts up his barrier:

bob - the happy man
joe - the hairy man

There are three players other than yourself.

Yes, it would show who was online in total, although sam is invisible. Seems suspicious... I wonder what sam is doing?

In the absence of any sort of ability to tell who your clan members are, contact works fine. You fail sometimes at it - well, that's how it's supposed to be. Having some failproof way to get a list of clannies is no good, but mansa has gone over that already.

[Niamh]

I am one of those awful staff members who was for who c being removed.  Why?  Because it is an ooc construct.  Why should anyone automagickally know who in their clan is online at any given time, when they can just as easily take IC measures to find them?  I find the ability to do such a thing jarring and unrealistic.

[NoteworthyFellow]

I am one of those awful staff members who was for who c being removed.  Why?  Because it is an ooc construct.  Why should anyone automagickally know who in their clan is online at any given time, when they can just as easily take IC measures to find them?  I find the ability to do such a thing jarring and unrealistic.

I'd only argue that, since online/offline status is a thoroughly OOC concept itself, an OOC construct doesn't make it any more jarring.

As far as I'm aware, having barrier up made you disappear from the "who c" list, right? I always played it off IC as the equivalent of the command mansa was suggesting, sort of sending out some psionic feelers to see whose mind is open before trying to make contact.

[AmandaGreathouse]

But what about those not in ISO clans, who it's very handy to seeif someone important is around instead of running around like a chicken with your head cut off.....trust me I have been through it, who c is a lifesaver.

Use contact like every other player in the game, besides Militia / Tan Muark / Halflings / select Elven Tribes.   Statements like that show that it's an OOC Tool that gives IC advantages to characters in the game.

That's the thing, though. It's not an IC advantage. There are, in many cases, hundreds of 'virtual' clan members that you could talk to and see if someone is around. You can't, of course, because it's an OOC thing that NPC's rarely give two-way interaction beyond a static script. But with who c you can, say, ask the guy at the gates of your clan compound if they've seen <rank> name about lately. And know who is around. Damned near any command which leaves a gray area can be abused, but the possibilities for roleplaying that it provides far overshadow, IMO, the potential issues of abuse. I've only ever played one clan that had who c, and I didn't just up and log out, even though I never once saw more than one person there, and it was usually none. But I -did- know that if I looked for interaction with one of the literally only two pc's I could hope to interact with, I could find it.

[brytta.leofa]

Man, I'm usually riding shotgun on the realism bandwagon, but...

Because it is an ooc construct.  Why should anyone automagickally know who in their clan is online at any given time, when they can just as easily take IC measures to find them?  I find the ability to do such a thing jarring and unrealistic.

- It's an OOC construct that helps to mitigate the effect of another OOC construct: logging in and out.  What's the in-character explanation for contact amos failing 100 times in a row?  Psionic storms?
- It saves time.  But apparently some folks don't need to save time.
- For you clannie-averse folks, it's defeated by barrier.
- To me, it would be a major inducement to joining any non-tribal clan.  Those folks who live in the same compound as I do, who bunk next to me, whom I'm virtually running into twelve times a day but practically never see because our schedules are slightly off?  I'm okay with making it easier to find them.

For the record, here is a sample output of "who -c".  It does not show true names.  It does show sdescs - and if your PC never sets foot in his clan's compound, it's true that this will be new information to you.  It does indicate how many people in your clan are logged in but have barrier up (and getting rid of that would be, to me, the most logical sanitization).

Players
-------
the spindly young lass [Arm of the Dragon]
the vibrant, jade-adorned brunette [Arm of the Dragon]
the slender, hack-haired man [Arm of the Dragon]

There are 4 visible players currently in the world.

And yeah, who c is one of the unconsidered and unenumerated reasons that I'd kidded myself into thinking I could someday play a successful templar.

[SMuz]

I had a char in the AoD once and never knew the command existed. It explains a lot now. I always wondered how the Templars managed to track me down, especially when you're somewhere you're not supposed to be. And had I known that the command existed, it would've ruined some future plans with that character. If a Bynner skips sparring and isn't where he's supposed to be, there's always the benefit of the doubt. If a Private skimps out one day, he'll have a Templar in his head and in his arse very soon.

So, I'd support this move. It has plenty of benefits, but the OOC disadvantages are worse, IMHO.

Heh, the "psionic IC version of who -c" sounds a lot like auto-spam contact. Barrier blocking it would be very nice, though.

[Ourla]

I really loved Who C. It worked so well in the Militias. I think that is the only one it should be in.

Agreed.  I'm pretty upset to see this go. 

[brytta.leofa]

If a Bynner skips sparring and isn't where he's supposed to be, there's always the benefit of the doubt.

No.  No, there really isn't.  Your sergeant does not have so many runners that he'll miss one totally disappearing for a day.  The doubt you're referring to is that you might not be logged on.

It's far more realistic for your Bynner (or militia soldier) to make up an actual excuse for his whereabouts than to put up a barrier and let your fellow players assume that you're logged off.

Even Tuluk is Land of the Disappeared, not Land of the Mysteriously Reappearing.

[NoteworthyFellow]

Heh, the "psionic IC version of who -c" sounds a lot like auto-spam contact. Barrier blocking it would be very nice, though.

Barrier already blocked "who c", though. If you didn't want to show up on the list--say, for example, you were somewhere you shouldn't be, or needed, for IC reasons, to avoid clannies--then you could put up barrier, the same thing you'd do if you didn't want your clannies to contact you.

If a Bynner skips sparring and isn't where he's supposed to be, there's always the benefit of the doubt.

No.  No, there really isn't.  Your sergeant does not have so many runners that he'll miss one totally disappearing for a day.  The doubt you're referring to is that you might not be logged on.

It's far more realistic for your Bynner (or militia soldier) to make up an actual excuse for his whereabouts than to put up a barrier and let your fellow players assume that you're logged off.

Even Tuluk is Land of the Disappeared, not Land of the Mysteriously Reappearing.

Also, this.