Subguild Hunter

[Eloran]

What's the deal with this wave of assassins that use subguild hunter as a means to have perfect wilderness sneak/hide. Seeing as how sneak nor hide is a skill offered by the sub, wouldn't that classify the sub as a bit buggy?

It may be perfectly acceptable, but I just find it a bit iffy is all.

[mansa]

hunter subclass gives sneak and hide?

http://www.armageddon.org/cgi-bin/help_index/show_help?Hunter

Subguild Hunter     (Character)

Hunters, who have made their living hunting, are generally good at tracking their prey, as well as skinning it. They also have the ability to shoot their prey from a distance using the arrows that they created.

See Also:
    guilds, subguilds

Looks to me like they get hunt, skin, archery AND create_arrows crafting skill.

[Eloran]

That's what they should get. Apparently there's this little sekrit running about that if you pick subguild_hunter and play an assassin, you can sneak/hide in both the city and wilderness effectively.

[mansa]

Perhaps this should best be taken up in an email to the mud account, or perhaps using the request tool.

[Eloran]

Oh it should be. I was just making this post to be snarky. The email's already been sent.

[Synthesis]

Kind of makes you wonder if ranger/thieves get city and wilderness sneak/hide.

p.s. I suspect most people pick assassin/hunter because it gives you a good excuse to go out and train backstab.  The other business is interesting and useful, but ultimately secondary.

[Eloran]

Kind of makes you wonder if ranger/thieves get city and wilderness sneak/hide.

I was just thinking the same thing. 

[Sephiroto]

It's a bit irritating to deal with this IC, but I'm not opposed to the idea that this is okay.  While I agree that having wilderness and city sneak/hide is a bit overpowering, don't forget about the other skills that these people forgo to be masters of stealth.  At the same time, I believe that a ranger_thief should get similar perks.

Now, I'm not sure if this is a bug or not.  I don't think hunters get the hide/sneak skills (the help file doesn't specify), so maybe a assassin_hunter might be getting wilderness hide/sneak due to the wilderness subset of the hunt skill, which goes along with the tracking of prey both inside and outside of the cities.

[Simple]

From what I remember, this has been discussed before. You only get your guild's one.

[Eloran]

I guess my eyes are just playing tricks on me.

[ibusoe]

Also, what's the harm in a little honest twinking, here and there?  It's not as bad as people who play dwarves but talk with a Scottish accent.

Now --that-- is the number one threat to the game!


Arrrr, matey!!

[Eloran]

Also, what's the harm in a little honest twinking, here and there?

I suppose you're being facetious here, but I'll bite your troll:

It defeats the purpose of the game. It's not about "winning" so much as playing a living, breathing character. If you twink to achieve an edge you shouldn't have, you're a turd.

It's not as bad as people who play dwarves but talk with a Scottish accent.

That's not twinkish. That's just stupid.

Arrrr, matey!!

Not Scottish.  

[Krath]

I can tell you from experience...You only get your MAIN guilds perks.
Not the subguilds.

[a strange shadow]

Keep in mind that if you're that damn good at hide/sneak, you have a chance to do it 'out of your element'.

[ibusoe]

I suppose you're being facetious here, but I'll bite your troll:

It defeats the purpose of the game. It's not about "winning" so much as playing a living, breathing character. If you twink to achieve an edge you shouldn't have, you're a turd.

I don't know.  At the risk of sounding philosophical...Maybe it's my age speaking, but I think part of having happiness in life consists of understanding, and indeed tolerance for the fact that not everyone will agree or attempt to play by what most of us consent to be the rules.

I mean, no matter how badassed this ranger/thief combination is, in the end it will easily get crushed by a half-giant with a spear, which is ironically completely within the rules. 

[Eloran]

I can tell you from experience...You only get your MAIN guilds perks.
Not the subguilds.

Thing is Krath, subguild_hunter doesn't -give- sneak or hide. My point is that there appears to be some sort of bug that's allowing city sneak/hide to work in the wilderness.

Keep in mind that if you're that damn good at hide/sneak, you have a chance to do it 'out of your element'.

Correct. Said chance, however, is a big, big negative. I've seen city characters who I -know- aren't rangers become ninjaghosts in the wilderness.

[Sephiroto]

Correct. Said chance, however, is a big, big negative. I've seen city characters who I -know- aren't rangers become ninjaghosts in the wilderness.

Same here.  I'm not totally against it, but I'd like to hear the staff address this issue and give their seal of approval before I endorse it.

I am almost 100% certain this is a result of either assassin_ranger or special app.

[Posts for the Post God]

There are subguilds that offer wilderness stealth skills.

I am not sure hunter is one of them, however, having not played one in quite a while.

[Synthesis]

I had an assassin/hunter about a year ago who could hide/sneak at will in the wilderness.

I'm not sure how good it worked vs. scan, but I could sneak up on/past any critter I wanted to.  This was with above average dwarf agility, so it wasn't a quirk of great stats.  On the other hand, I had a recent assassin/physician with vgood c-elf agility, who couldn't hide in the desert worth a damn, even after having maxed the city variant.

So yeah, it definitely seems to me like there's some synergy between the class and subclass going on there.  Personally, I like it. 

But hey, I like anything that makes assassins cooler.

[FantasyWriter]

Most assassin/hunters I have ran across were wanting to be hired as "hunters" in clans.

[FantasyWriter]

I can tell you from experience...You only get your MAIN guilds perks.
Not the subguilds.

Thing is Krath, subguild_hunter doesn't -give- sneak or hide. My point is that there appears to be some sort of bug that's allowing city sneak/hide to work in the wilderness.

If this exploitation were possible, I am pretty sure this thread would have not lasted this long.

[Simple]

Also, what's the harm in a little honest twinking, here and there?  It's not as bad as people who play dwarves but talk with a Scottish accent.

Now --that-- is the number one threat to the game!


Arrrr, matey!!

Are they scottish pirates?

[spawnloser]

Yes, you can use your assassin's city sneak/hide in the wilderness.  No, hunter does not allow you to do it without the penalty.

[Kryos]

This has already been discussed, jeez, maybe at most two months ago? Staff gave their answer. It has no point.

[SMuz]

What's wrong with a hunter relying on their stealth and backstab skills? And using it on people in the city as well. Assassin/hunter seems like a plausible enough concept. There are more 'twinkish' combos.

[Sephiroto]

This has already been discussed, jeez, maybe at most two months ago? Staff gave their answer. It has no point.

Post a link, please.

If it is not some assassin_ranger bug/feature, I want to know why it's happening.  I doubt the OP brought the issue up merely because he/she was bored.

[FantasyWriter]

I had a ranger once who heavily relied on his subguild-gained sap.  I don't see anything at all twinkish about doing a sneak attack on an animal.

[Eloran]

I had a ranger once who heavily relied on his subguild-gained sap.  I don't see anything at all twinkish about doing a sneak attack on an animal.

Whoa whoa whoa. Where is this thread heading? No one is saying sneak attacks on animals is retarded.

This is about a possible bug with subguild_hunter.

[FantasyWriter]

I had a ranger once who heavily relied on his subguild-gained sap.  I don't see anything at all twinkish about doing a sneak attack on an animal.

Whoa whoa whoa. Where is this thread heading? No one is saying sneak attacks on animals is retarded.

This is about a possible bug with subguild_hunter.

We were discussing a subject that came up after you were told that bugs were to be reported via the request tool and not posted about on the GDB.

http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,30327.msg335147.html#msg335147

[RogueGunslinger]

I had a ranger once who heavily relied on his subguild-gained sap.  I don't see anything at all twinkish about doing a sneak attack on an animal.

This topic ha been discussed a lot, and staff opinion, as well as many reasons given by players, state that it is perfectly fine to use sap and backstab against animals.

[Eloran]

We were discussing a subject that came up after you were told that bugs were to be reported via the request tool and not posted about on the GDB.

Start your own thread then?

Let me be a snarky dick in this one plz.

[SMuz]

If it's a bug that people could possibly twink, the last thing you'd want to do is tell people on the GDB not to do it O_o

Now I feel like making an assassin/hunter.

[Krath]

Eloran,

It is NOT the Sub guild hunter that makes it possible.

Any assassin with the right equipment can sneak/hide in the wilderness.

[X-D]

Of course few consider that if it is the case that it is not a bug, it is the way it has to work.

As to it being twinky, first, it is very likely not the only sub that will give it IF it is indeed the sub.

But Let us assume for a moment it is. What exactly is wrong with somebody working through their lives to keep out of sight in and out of the city?

Next, as has already been said, the assassin or whatever, also gives up many MUCH more useful subs when picking something like hunter.

AND, since we are someday moving on to arm2 where you will be able to be a ranger/assassin or whatever anyway...Who cares?

[Dan]

Maybe they aren't even subguild hunter. That isn't the only subguild that allows for outdoors stealth abilities.

No guild/subguild combination is possible that allows for a character to have full capabilities at wildnerness/city sneak/hide.

Some combinations allow for great sneaking in both the city and outdoors, hiding in both, etc. There is no combination allowed that will let a PC perfectly sneak and hide in both the city and wilderness.

In my opinion the ability to sneak/hide between the city and outdoors isn't unrealistic. Spice runners? Scout/spies? Some other more complicated concepts.

Perhaps you aren't playing a character with good enough listen/scan to detect the modest successes made by these non-ranger wilderness ninjas.

There is also the chance that the characters you see do this are special apped.

[Lord of Charas]

... I've seen city characters who I -know- aren't rangers become ninjaghosts in the wilderness.

Guild-sniffer.  

Maybe you're just a little pissed because some halfling (NPC) hunter backstabbed you while you were going someplace you shouldn't've. I'd a character (Rukkian) BS'd on countless, countless times in his roamings of the Grey Forest. Or heck, maybe there really are some halfling assassin/hunter PC's out there, who knows.

Anyways, what matters is, it's just a game. ;P You're whole mentality is 'balance, balance, balance,' that much I can tell, but this is an unbalanced game, and that's one thing I've always loved about it.

The world is not fair, there are rich people and poor. In Zalanthas there are magickers who can with but five words vapourize such a character, effortlessly. Let assassins have their toys - they're a hard enough guild as it is. The karma classes already have plenty of toys to play with, and I don't see people coming and complaining about that.

[Eloran]

As to it being twinky, first, it is very likely not the only sub that will give it IF it is indeed the sub.

So what? They should be bugged to.

But Let us assume for a moment it is. What exactly is wrong with somebody working through their lives to keep out of sight in and out of the city?

There's absolutely nothing wrong with that...so long as you didn't gain the coded ability through the means in which I think are possible, in which case I think there is something very wrong with it.

Next, as has already been said, the assassin or whatever, also gives up many MUCH more useful subs when picking something like hunter.

So? Does that make it right?

AND, since we are someday moving on to arm2 where you will be able to be a ranger/assassin or whatever anyway...Who cares?

Apparently I do. I guess I just have a hardon for continuity. If you don't care about the current incarnation, why are you playing?

And more importantly, if subguild_hunter doesn't give wilderness sneak/hide, why were you bragging about it for that very reason recently? Were you just popping off at the mouth, or are you trying to hide a little known sekrit?

[Nyr]

This might help.

Since there is a city sneak/hide and a wilderness sneak/hide.

If you get sneak/hide from your guild and it's the outdoors version and then you get sneak/hide with your subguild and it's the city version. Do you get both kinda like separate skills or does your Guild override your Subguild in this situation?

Answer:

I was under the impression it was as follows:

/thief = city stealth
/rebel = wilderness

However, if you your guild provides you with a stealth variant, then the subguild serves only to bump up your starting ability with that same stealth variant. Sooo...

Warrior/thief = City sneak
Ranger/thief = Wilderness sneak, starting at the subguild's base skill level.

Same with assassin/rebel bumping up the assassin's city sneak.

This is how it was explained a while back, at least. Am I wrong on this?

You are wrong, choosing a subguild that has the same skills as your main guild will give you a bump, but you have the ability to use your sneaking in both the wilderness and city.

I've already said this three times in this thread, so I'm done with it after this post.  The final staff answer on this is that:

thief = city sneak
rebel = wilderness sneak

If you have access to both types from a guild/subguild option, you get the ability to sneak in both locations.

And for the record, the official announcement of this change happened on the week of 2/20/2006, here's the link to the weekly update:

http://www.armageddon.org/general/updates/view.php?week=8&year=2006

Has the staff ever thought about making these two completely separate skills with different names maybe?

I haven't.  Other staffers may have.  If it were changed (not that I think it needs to be), it'd probably be changed for Arm Reborn.

[Nyr]

Also, locking this thread, as the intent of it was admittedly to be snarky rather than get anything constructive done, and enough "discussion" has been done.