Sid mining quotas

[Veges]

Could it possibly be made so that the amount of obsidian one can sell to the office does not affect what others can sell? For example, let each player sell two large and five small chunks per IC day. It's currently possible for one or two enterprising players to completely corner the entire sid mining market and lock out the rest of the playerbase since the mine only buys like five or ten of each size of chunks. It doesn't seem realistic to me and it's really annoying that the actions of others can rule out an entire character concept or way of living in this way.

Either that, or if the same one character has sold the maximum amount of material that the templar will purchase per day for many IC days in a row, have said templar smite him with fire and brimstone.

[FantasyWriter]

I would very much like to see this implemented.

[shadeoux]

+1
IF your the first person there every day, you can clean house, making what 300sid a IG DAY doing this, I think the limits should be lowered so it's disbursed a little bit more.
Like the above poster mentioned, cap it at 2 large and 5 small a day per person, drop the frequency that the LARGE chunks break, and give more small chunks.
will cut in half the amount of sid one can make by doing this, and IF they want to make more, then there is always something else to mine.
and also, allow them to be sold to the rock merchants too if it's not already possible too, but for a fraction of what the templars offer.

Just my 2cents

[Lizzie]

No no no to dropping the frequency that the large chunks break. Remember those things aren't just sellable to NPC merchants, they're also craftable, and there are some people who actually need them (and would buy them if only people would stop running to the NPC every damned day and notice there are actual PC buyers around).

Yes yes yes to changing the system of limits at the shops - from limits per day, to limits per person. But this isn't a new problem, there are dozens of threads about this issue and the merchant shop system has been changed as a result. Unfortunately it doesn't really address the problem: that whoever gets there at the right time (whatever time that is) ends up with all the sids, and everyone else is SOL.

I'd love to see - 2 big 5 small per person every TWO Days..
plus
cloth buyers only buying five things from any PC once every TWO days...
plus
weapons buyers buying only five things from any PC once every TWO days..

this would be IC days, so actually it'd be 5 items per shop per 2 RL hours per player. A player could still very easily get rich if he was raiding/grebbing/crafting/mining efficiently, but not AS rich, and not at the expense of everyone else.

[SMuz]

Huh? Reduce the inter-player conflict? I like it as it is. Doesn't documentation warn against overhunting, anyway? I'd think overmining would be the same thing. If someone is getting rich as the expense of others, handle it IC - organize a union with other fellow miners. And by union, I mean having a bunch of other miners beating the crap out of twink miners and robbing him of everything he's got.

Besides, if they've sold to the IC quota for the day, just squat outside the office till the next day and sell it in the morning. That's what I always do. And chances are you'll find other miners too, both people unsatisfied with the situation, and that twink miner. And you know they're online at the same time.

The quota seems quite realistic to me. Why would the Templarate want to assign a quota per person? It makes sense that they'd award a single productive miner will all the sids he can earn and not pay any more once they have enough. Use it as a roleplaying opportunity.

[Synthesis]

'sid-mining market being cornered?

Sounds like an IC problem that calls for an IC solution.

[Veges]

It just doesn't seem to be an IC problem that two individuals can seemingly fill the city-state's need for raw obsidian (and more, judging by the amount of bags they bring each dawn) for an extended period of time, regardless of whether or not those responsible are being good roleplayers about it. I can't justify treating it as an in-character issue anyway since it's so unrealistic the way the code deals with it.

[Thunkkin]

'sid-mining market being cornered?

Sounds like an IC problem that calls for an IC solution.

Doesn't sound like an IC problem to me.

It sounds to me that the market is "cornered" by the luck of whoever logs in at the right time.  Sounds OOC to me.

The "cornering" hasn't been accomplished by skill or IC manipulation.

[obtuscated]

Couldn't this be circumvented by selling to a PC group that needs it?

[SMuz]

IIRC, it's just for one IG day. If so, it's not that bad. If it isn't for just one IG day, then it should be.

[FantasyWriter]

The proposed system would help with both playability and logistically as to how the Templar SHOULD be taking the whole virtual population into account.

I have yet to see any logical argument against it, and the only people I can see it hurting is the ones who are standing there at dawn waiting to clean the Templar out of sid.

[brytta.leofa]

I've almost never had a problem selling pretty good quantities o' stuff to that templar.



... Why are you guys all looking at me?

[RogueGunslinger]

I've only once had a problem with this. And I've mined a lot.

Isn't it just a 1 in game day timer?

[Dan]

I never saw the Templar not buy a chunk of 'sid. Didn't even know that happened.

[FantasyWriter]

Isn't it just a 1 in game day timer?

Yes.

[Agent_137]

a cap on purchasing is dumb. Kurac only buys X amount of spice in storm. Nak only buys X amount of sid. Lol. Ok. Sure. little NPC merchants only buying 5 scrab shells I understand. But KURAC only needs 5 GRAINS OF THO? REALLY?

it fucks playability AND realism. good game.

[shadeoux]

a cap on purchasing is dumb. Kurac only buys X amount of spice in storm. Nak only buys X amount of sid. Lol. Ok. Sure. little NPC merchants only buying 5 scrab shells I understand. But KURAC only needs 5 GRAINS OF THO? REALLY?

it fucks playability AND realism. good game.

So if the economy goes out of whack, because of sid/spice/glass/cotton?/anything else i forgot/salt farmers by taking out the caps of how much is sold how do you balance it then, the rangers/warriors/crafters all get uber rich, selling the most expensive thing 50 times over the course of a week irl?

[ibusoe]

'sid-mining market being cornered?

Sounds like an IC problem that calls for an IC solution.

Yeah.  Most in-game conflicts happen for rather silly reasons, but this sounds like an actual bona-fide reason to go pick a fight with someone.  I'd prefer that the existing quota system not be modified. 

Nice idea, though.

[FantasyWriter]

I think a certain raw material shop in nak should also buy 'sid.

[Armaddict]

Rangers/independents have always been the ones who can get rich the fastest, just that they are usually in very high-risk situations.  Sometimes they even get absolutely filthy rich, but at some point...they either have to stop, slow down once they're established and start using the money, or get killed off while doing that high-risk activity at some point or another.  It only takes once.

As far as the actual topic...I kind of lean towards the conflict point, but I can see how this would get frustrating.  There was a topic awhile back about the selling of raw materials in the northlands, due to those limits and essentially people stockpiling to go sell right after crashes and reboots.  I don't recall how it was fixed, or if it was, but this sounds like a similar scenario.

[Veges]

I've only once had a problem with this. And I've mined a lot.

Isn't it just a 1 in game day timer?

Well the details are the sort of thing I'm not allowed to relay on the forums I believe, but in vague terms, it's possible for an unrealistically small number of players (one or two, seemingly) to completely "cockblock" all other miners in the game by waiting at the mining office before dawn, spamming "sell chunk" the moment it opens, and then go out to mine again, bringing back as much or more sid than the office will then buy the next day. Rinse, repeat, profit. I wouldn't know if this is something that happens often, but I have been incapable of selling any raw obsidian for two RL days now despite trying over half a dozen times on different in-game days. All you have to do is spend some twenty minutes mining each IG day, and then be at the office when dawn ticks. If you can manage this regularly, noone else in the entire game can be a miner unless they play other hours or are satisfied selling to other players who may or may not be around.

[FantasyWriter]

I've had PCs (all of which would have been at least a year ago) who regularly got to the office before "dawn" was over, and was unable to sell anything to him.

[Riev]

Show up at dawn. Find out who these people are, and organize an effort with other bored players, or offer the byn 400 'sid to "keep the shop open". Have the Byn guard the entrance from people that -aren't- on your list of approved people. That'll start conflict with the Templarate and -everything- and get the topic really heated up.

Plus it gives the byn something to do.

[SMuz]

I typed the same thing Riev did. It's a roleplaying opportunity. Handle it IC. Not like it's based on an OOC timer (reboots), the timer's IC. Hell, if it's as bad as you guys suggest, it should be easy to organize an angry mob of miners for some Allanak style thuggery

[Jenred]

I never saw the Templar not buy a chunk of 'sid. Didn't even know that happened.

[Eternal Strife]

As far as the actual topic...I kind of lean towards the conflict point, but I can see how this would get frustrating.  There was a topic awhile back about the selling of raw materials in the northlands, due to those limits and essentially people stockpiling to go sell right after crashes and reboots.  I don't recall how it was fixed, or if it was, but this sounds like a similar scenario.

Automated script that made Merchant NPCs sell to vnpc population.

[AmandaGreathouse]

I never saw the Templar not buy a chunk of 'sid. Didn't even know that happened.

This.

Plus, if you take the VNPC's into account, it's really -not- like only one or two people are doing it, it seems like maybe a lot more people are mining.

[Armaddict]

Plus, if you take the VNPC's into account, it's really -not- like only one or two people are doing it, it seems like maybe a lot more people are mining.

It would be cool if that made it so that shortages were in other forms of labor, such as gathering salt.

[amish overlord]

Perhaps instead of quotas you should try a hostile takeover!

Amish Overlord 

[shadeoux]

Perhaps instead of quotas you should try a hostile takeover!

Amish Overlord 

Hell yea,

Lots of things go bump in the night out there, why night bump in the day time ehh?

[brytta.leofa]

Well the details are the sort of thing I'm not allowed to relay on the forums I believe, but in vague terms, it's possible for an unrealistically small number of players (one or two, seemingly) to completely "cockblock" all other miners in the game by waiting at the mining office before dawn, spamming "sell chunk" the moment it opens, and then go out to mine again, bringing back as much or more sid than the office will then buy the next day.

It really doesn't sound that unrealistic to me.  A bunch of VNPCs probably do exactly the same thing: mine as much as they can, and show up to stand in line before the office opens.

[Qzzrbl]

So the VNPCs actions are entirely dependent on what a few PCs manage to bring in?

Something's wrong there.

[Fathi]

I never saw the Templar not buy a chunk of 'sid. Didn't even know that happened.

[Jingo]

Gawd. If with the proposed quota, they would be making more money than most nobles.

[AmandaGreathouse]

Truthfully, from what I understand, it wouldn't take much to make more than a lot of noble stipends. I've heard of a few that... well... many people who aren't twinking or even trying to would make more than that.

/derail

[Veges]

It really doesn't sound that unrealistic to me.  A bunch of VNPCs probably do exactly the same thing: mine as much as they can, and show up to stand in line before the office opens.

The unrealistic thing is the amount of individuals necessary to feed the market, not so much their manner of doing it (though I have my reservations about intentionally and continuously monopolizing an entire venue of income in the game).

Gawd. If with the proposed quota, they would be making more money than most nobles.

How's that? With the established example of two large and five small chunks per day, a miner could earn 150 coins a day at the most. You can currently make more than twice that amount if you're the one who has the mining office rotation in check. A (smaller) personal quota would prevent someone from making a fortune and from single-handedly locking others out of the business. They could lower the prices of obsidian for all I care if that's necessary, the problem is how the current quota model disrupts gameplay.

[Fathi]

No no no to dropping the frequency that the large chunks break. Remember those things aren't just sellable to NPC merchants, they're also craftable, and there are some people who actually need them (and would buy them if only people would stop running to the NPC every damned day and notice there are actual PC buyers around).

Oh, I forgot to quote this, too.

Large chunks are a pretty necessary crafting ingredient for at least two subguilds that I've played--to say nothing of actual merchant-guild crafters.

[FantasyWriter]

Yeah, if you can find the right PCs and GMH, you'll never sell to the Templarate again.

[RogueGunslinger]

It really doesn't sound that unrealistic to me.  A bunch of VNPCs probably do exactly the same thing: mine as much as they can, and show up to stand in line before the office opens.

The unrealistic thing is the amount of individuals necessary to feed the market, not so much their manner of doing it (though I have my reservations about intentionally and continuously monopolizing an entire venue of income in the game).

Gawd. If with the proposed quota, they would be making more money than most nobles.

How's that? With the established example of two large and five small chunks per day, a miner could earn 150 coins a day at the most. You can currently make more than twice that amount if you're the one who has the mining office rotation in check. A (smaller) personal quota would prevent someone from making a fortune and from single-handedly locking others out of the business. They could lower the prices of obsidian for all I care if that's necessary, the problem is how the current quota model disrupts gameplay.

150 coins a day is more than a person in any clan could ever hope to make. And those jobs are supposed to be great.

[SMuz]

Yeah, if you're going for a quota model, I'd rather see it put to around 60-90 sids (120-180 for glass) total a day, enough to scrape by with food and water. Otherwise, keep the current 'market cornering' system. Seems slightly twinkish to mine more than 3 small chunk, 1 large chunk a day anyway, which is about as much as your char's stamina can take you on one or two mining runs. Unless you're really lucky and get 2 large chunks in a single run. If you're glass mining, then you sort of deserve to make more than a noble.

So the VNPCs actions are entirely dependent on what a few PCs manage to bring in?

PC hunting results in the area running out of animals. PC overmining seems like a similar situation. vNPCs are all virtually lining up to virtually sell their 1-3 small chunks every morning. Then one day, some big, burly twink brings in 4 large chunks and 10 small chunks to the Mines Office that same morning. Heh, the mines Templar would just raise an eyebrow.. but who cares where he got it, they'd just buy it off him and close the office for the day. The vNPCs would just glare at him, grumble about it, and do nothing about it. He broke some silent pact among miners that they're only supposed to mine enough to live.

Since some twink has been breaking the unwritten rule, the vNPCs would also break their pact to sell only 1-3 chunks a day. Each would then be mining double their daily quota, and someone does something about it, the only way these vNPCs can survive is to work harder and show up earlier to the mines office.

This is your cue. This is why your character is not a common NPC. Handle it for the sake of the vNPCs, or just handle it for yourself.

[Jenred]

Most houses pay like 300 sids on average starting... a month (or rl week-ish).

Even with this "smaller quota" thing, people can still make 500 coins a rl-day, or 3500 coins a month (rl week).

Having it being monopolized by one person making that large amount, and hence him developing enemies, is a better solution then everyone getting richer.

Eitherway, as I said before, I've never encountered the templar not buying. And if he doesn't, do what other players have said and try selling to PCs. Or storing it in an apartment. Selling sid just one day pays most average apartment rents for an entire month.

[FantasyWriter]

2RL weeks = 1 IG month

[hyzhenhok]

Most houses pay like 300 sids on average starting... a month (or rl week-ish).

Even with this "smaller quota" thing, people can still make 500 coins a rl-day, or 3500 coins a month (rl week).

Having it being monopolized by one person making that large amount, and hence him developing enemies, is a better solution then everyone getting richer.

Eitherway, as I said before, I've never encountered the templar not buying. And if he doesn't, do what other players have said and try selling to PCs. Or storing it in an apartment. Selling sid just one day pays most average apartment rents for an entire month.

Meh. Someone who earns 7000 coins a month when the typical clan salary is 300 coins, and is still going out to mine obsidian, is roleplaying poorly. Why would a commoner be taking on the risky enterprise of going out and mining obsidian after he's made a small fortune that he can live off of probably for the rest of his life? And if he's trying to get money to equip himself, he's going way over the necessary amount.

It's like playing a scavenger who walks around the 'rinth, looting all of the corpses you find and selling everything, and earning 300 coins per RL day doing so. Yes, it's codedly possible. But would a 'rinthi scavenger really have two large stored away with House Nenyuk? If you're a commoner with a large income, I hope you're blowing it on something like spice, because it just doesn't make IC sense for you to have enough money for an argosy stored in your personal bank account. It isn't an issue of the code being broken; it's an issue of poor roleplay.

Honestly I think people who do this are spoiling the game for themselves. I have much more fun when my character has very little coin, scraping by from purchase to purchase.

[Riev]

Most houses pay like 300 sids on average starting... a month (or rl week-ish).

Oh my god, you can get paid for being in a clan?


CLAN LEADERS. WE NEED TO HAVE A TALK.

[shadeoux]

Most houses pay like 300 sids on average starting... a month (or rl week-ish).

Oh my god, you can get paid for being in a clan?


CLAN LEADERS. WE NEED TO HAVE A TALK.

Thats what I said!

[Morrolan]

We coud just cap it at one piece of 'sid per game hour, meaning you sell one piece and have to get back in line.  Whatever it is you sell, you get that much per the hour.
>sell chunk
You get 10 sid.
>sell chunk
The blue-faced man says, "Back of the line."

<the next hour starts>
sell chunk
You get 50 'sid.

etc...

This seems to be a low-tech way of limiting sales.  No one has to virtually keep track of what you sell.

Morrolan

[AmandaGreathouse]

Personally, taking the price of food and water into account, I don't think that for a 300 day (ish, I know, it's actually 290ish) month, 300 sids from a merchant house is prohibitively low. In some places that's working for the price of 6 filled skins of water per month. I advocate something closer to 750 or 1000 sid per month. The pay hasn't stopped me from playing my share of clanned roles, but the pay is crap.

[Armaddict]

Clanned roles also provide security, storage (usually), training (usually) in a safe environment, and FOOD AND WATER.

[AmandaGreathouse]

For 1 sid per day.

[a strange shadow]

Keep in mind that on top of that 300 'sid a month, you're getting a free, safe place to sleep, as much food and water as you can consume, and often some nifty uniform stuff, not to mention the protection of belonging to an organization, however minor that may be at first.

In comparison, an independent pays for everything on their own, including bribes to keep his or her ass safe(er).

(nevermind, Armaddict already said it)

also: third world country folks, what is it they live off of, $1 a month?

Zalanthas is not your cushy earth corporate environment.

[Synthesis]

Yeah right.

The surest way to die as a newbie is to join a clan.

/only half-joking

[Jingo]

Keep in mind that on top of that 300 'sid a month, you're getting a free, safe place to sleep, as much food and water as you can consume, and often some nifty uniform stuff, not to mention the protection of belonging to an organization, however minor that may be at first.

In comparison, an independent pays for everything on their own, including bribes to keep his or her ass safe(er).

(nevermind, Armaddict already said it)

also: third world country folks, what is it they live off of, $1 a month?

Zalanthas is not your cushy earth corporate environment.

I'm in agreement that indies making a assload of 'sid should be spending it almost as quickly. On bribes, drinks etc.

Doesn't mean that anyone is actually going to do that and instead amass all the wealth that Nenyuk can hold for them.

[Jdr]

I wonder if more people joined clans, we'd get more player-driven RPT-encouragable events like org-rivalries and skirmishes?

[Cutthroat]

I wonder if more people joined clans, we'd get more player-driven RPT-encouragable events like org-rivalries and skirmishes?

I like to think that part of the "OOC pay" of joining a clan is being involved in larger plots, and that would hopefully offset the crappy pay in 'sid (at least, if you think your pay, along with all the luxuries and protection you get of joining most clans is crap). So let indies amass an assload of 'sid, and see how much fun they have with typing 'balance' once in a while.

OT: I agree with this:

We coud just cap it at one piece of 'sid per game hour, meaning you sell one piece and have to get back in line.  Whatever it is you sell, you get that much per the hour.
>sell chunk
You get 10 sid.
>sell chunk
The blue-faced man says, "Back of the line."

<the next hour starts>
sell chunk
You get 50 'sid.

etc...

This seems to be a low-tech way of limiting sales.  No one has to virtually keep track of what you sell.

Morrolan

[Ender]

To everyone complaining about how unrealistic it is that Allanak limits how much obsidian they BUY, please realize that the majority of the obsidian Allanak brings in is through slave labor.

The obsidian they buy from non-slaves is a very VERY small portion of what they bring in, and as such would make sense that they would limit it.

[solera]

Doesn't mean that anyone is actually going to do that and instead amass all the wealth that Nenyuk can hold for them.

Knowing that it will all be Nenyuk's soon!

[ianmartin]

1.  Get a cheap apartment
2.  Stockpile 4 million chunks of sid on the times when noone plays.
3.  Sell said items.

Noone can sell to the shops if there is nothing to sell.