Byn failing at its important function?

[Lizzie]

Put it this way, the Byn has always been about taking most anyone and filtering them out as Runners. They don't really even care about Runners. If they don't make the grade, they don't make Trooper. A lot of them don't even want to, they just want the training. It's why they're about the only clan characters have to pay to get into.

If they start getting selective about admitting people as Runners though, where does it leave new players that don't have a clue?

It leaves them with an extensive and detailed (if not optimally organized) website filled with documentation. If they don't have "a clue" then they haven't read anything, and have only themselves to blame for not having a clue. It isn't the job of -anyone- to teach new players how to roleplay, or how to play Armageddon. Players do this because they -want- to. And conversely, they don't do it, because they don't want to. No one is obligated to teach new players, not even Byn Sergeants. Just like the staff, the players who help are volunteers. When people start expecting other players to help them, it becomes a chore, and one that players are more likely to avoid than embrace.

[Eyeball]

3. A Byn sergeant can be as "exclusive" (ICly) as he/she damn well pleases; just like any other recruiter in the game.

Byn sergeants are people too, not stew vending machines. If you think you're a perfect fit for the Byn but are rejected, be surprised and hurt in-character, not out-of-character.

This isn't about my character, who is doing quite well, thanks. It's about new players' characters. If even the Byn won't take them, they're screwed, especially in the southlands.

[Eyeball]

Put it this way, the Byn has always been about taking most anyone and filtering them out as Runners. They don't really even care about Runners. If they don't make the grade, they don't make Trooper. A lot of them don't even want to, they just want the training. It's why they're about the only clan characters have to pay to get into.

If they start getting selective about admitting people as Runners though, where does it leave new players that don't have a clue?

It leaves them with an extensive and detailed (if not optimally organized) website filled with documentation. If they don't have "a clue" then they haven't read anything, and have only themselves to blame for not having a clue. It isn't the job of -anyone- to teach new players how to roleplay, or how to play Armageddon. Players do this because they -want- to. And conversely, they don't do it, because they don't want to. No one is obligated to teach new players, not even Byn Sergeants. Just like the staff, the players who help are volunteers. When people start expecting other players to help them, it becomes a chore, and one that players are more likely to avoid than embrace.

When new players post on the GDB, about the first thing people are always telling them is to join the Byn.

If this isn't good advice anymore, so be it, but at least it should be public knowledge.

[Thunkkin]

If this isn't good advice anymore, so be it, but at least it should be public knowledge.

Sounds like you had a bad experience.

It may have been your character, for IC reasons.  Maybe you managed to create someone so offensive or otherwise aggravating that even a Byn sergeant didn't want to put up with you.
It may be the Sergeant.  Maybe some innocuous quirk about your character triggered some deep-seated prejudice of some sort from the Sergeant.  Or there was some other IC reason. 
Assume there was an IC reason.  Always.

If multiple beginners have this problem, then yes, something may need to be looked at.  But I think the advice for beginners to try out the Byn (if they're militarily inclined) is still good and standard advice.  One mishap with one character is frustrating for you, the player, but not indicative of a trend that reflects on a) you, b) the sergeant, or c) the clan.

Now you have the opportunity to play a character rejected by the Byn.  Not everyone has that opportunity.  Did it crush your character's self-esteem?  Did it make your character want to join some other organization and then rub it the Byn's face when your character becomes more important and wealthy?  Did it make your character decide to wait, find another sergeant, join the Byn, and then tirelessly work to get promoted above the Sergeant and then make his life hell?

Having your beginning plans for a character not work out ... sucks.  But, the best solution is to chalk it up to Ginka and turn it into a unique experience.

[Eyeball]

If this isn't good advice anymore, so be it, but at least it should be public knowledge.

Sounds like you had a bad experience.

Please, people, this isn't about my character. I watched another character, for example, being rejected by the Byn for just "being weird"... i.e. he lisped because of missing teeth and liked to chew on a bit of leather. Since when does the Byn take only pretty folk with prime manners?

[brytta.leofa]

If and when you play a Byn sergeant, you may play him differently.


None of us has a duty to the other players that comes ahead of playing out a consistent character.

[Zoltan]

You're sure that's all there was to it? If so, yeah, I guess that's kind of a strange reason to be rejected. It could be that there was more going on than you were privy to. Of course, not everything in this game is a multi-layered plot within a plot, heh. 

If and when you play a Byn sergeant, you may play him differently.

And what brytta said, too. Be the change you want to see. Do something IC about it. Or not, whatever makes sense.

[Gimfalisette]

None of us has a duty to the other players that comes ahead of playing out a consistent character.

Though I agree with the general sentiment of, "There's probably a valid IC reason rather than the Sergeant just OOCly being a lazy douche," the specific above statement, I disagree with.

[brytta.leofa]

None of us has a duty to the other players that comes ahead of playing out a consistent character.

Though I agree with the general sentiment of, "There's probably a valid IC reason rather than the Sergeant just OOCly being a lazy douche," the specific above statement, I disagree with.

...hyperbole?

[Gimfalisette]

None of us has a duty to the other players that comes ahead of playing out a consistent character.

Though I agree with the general sentiment of, "There's probably a valid IC reason rather than the Sergeant just OOCly being a lazy douche," the specific above statement, I disagree with.

...hyperbole?

Only you know if you were hypering your bole, but with your recent confession of current snarkiness, I expect so

My overall perspective is that we're all mutually responsible for making the game as enjoyable as possible for each other (and ourselves), and part of that is definitely playing a consistent character, but that's not the only important job, nor is it always the #1 thing needing done. Especially when it comes to noobs, making ARM a welcoming environment trumps overly-rigorous adherence to characterization, IMO.

[Lizzie]

Erm, that was IC info..and very recent. And what you have presented here as "evidence" to support your theory, is not conclusive. Nor does it accurately represent what actually occurred, or why it occurred the way it did.

Also consider, that sometimes, it is -very- obvious that the person looking for work  is gonna be "high mainentance." Meaning, if you hire this person, their -player- will suck up every available moment of your play time, and you will have no chance of ever doing anything again as long as -their- player lives and works in your clan.

And then you have to decide. Do I mind, doing that? Is their roleplay impressive, entertaining, and interesting enough that I'd mind having every minute of my playtime occupied by them, and put aside all my other goals for my character? Or..would I prefer to cut bait and run, and pass them off to someone else?

I've had to make that decision several times. Sometimes, it's after the fact, after I've already invested hours and hours of my playtime into a single other PC and their player's needs. Sometimes..I'm the one who sucks the playtime out of someone. But it's a decision the players need to make, how much effort and time they are willing, and able, to invest in another individual player's roleplay.

[Eyeball]

Erm, that was IC info..and very recent. And what you have presented here as "evidence" to support your theory, is not conclusive. Nor does it accurately represent what actually occurred, or why it occurred the way it did.

Also consider, that sometimes, it is -very- obvious that the person looking for work  is gonna be "high mainentance." Meaning, if you hire this person, their -player- will suck up every available moment of your play time, and you will have no chance of ever doing anything again as long as -their- player lives and works in your clan.

And then you have to decide. Do I mind, doing that? Is their roleplay impressive, entertaining, and interesting enough that I'd mind having every minute of my playtime occupied by them, and put aside all my other goals for my character? Or..would I prefer to cut bait and run, and pass them off to someone else?

I've had to make that decision several times. Sometimes, it's after the fact, after I've already invested hours and hours of my playtime into a single other PC and their player's needs. Sometimes..I'm the one who sucks the playtime out of someone. But it's a decision the players need to make, how much effort and time they are willing, and able, to invest in another individual player's roleplay.

Yes, it is recent IC info. If there's anything I don't like about Arm, it's the posting to the GDB and not being allowed to back one's assertions with facts. It's why I've tried to stay away. I also happen to know that this bit of IC information is inconsequential.

But of course you're going to reply and say that there's no such thing as inconsequential IC information, etc. etc. Okay.

Does anything ever get settled on the GDB? 

[Gimfalisette]

Yes, it is recent IC info. If there's anything I don't like about Arm, it's the posting to the GDB and not being allowed to back one's assertions with facts. It's why I've tried to stay away. I also happen to know that this bit of IC information is inconsequential.

Because I haven't quite been earning my pay lately as Keeper of All Things Data-ish, I feel compelled to point out that one IC incident does not a trend make; anecdata is not actually data. So specifically citing an IC incident in an attempt to prove one's point is rather futile, and also, still totally against the rules.

The thing to do in a situation like this is send an email of concern to the clan staffers in question and let them know. Not a complaint. Simply a note of concern so that in case there is a problem (which there may not be at all), they are alerted to watch out for it.

[Eyeball]

Yes, it is recent IC info. If there's anything I don't like about Arm, it's the posting to the GDB and not being allowed to back one's assertions with facts. It's why I've tried to stay away. I also happen to know that this bit of IC information is inconsequential.

Because I haven't quite been earning my pay lately as Keeper of All Things Data-ish, I feel compelled to point out that one IC incident does not a trend make; anecdata is not actually data. So specifically citing an IC incident in an attempt to prove one's point is rather futile, and also, still totally against the rules.

The thing to do in a situation like this is send an email of concern to the clan staffers in question and let them know. Not a complaint. Simply a note of concern so that in case there is a problem (which there may not be at all), they are alerted to watch out for it.

It was an example, not my whole argument.

Anyhow, this is getting too frustrating for me. Goodbye all, I'm going to resume lurking.

[AmandaGreathouse]

In a place where there's no OOC channel, no help channel, and asking questions in the questions area of the forum on a game where even vets have onrunning jokes about the 'guess the syntax' game, I'd say, yes, older players -do- have an OOC duty to at least field the newer person to someone who can help, if not helping them themselves. I mean, I have never heard a single community of players that has said so much shit against newbs in clans and yet at the same time been about people joining clans. Parts of what I said are exaggerated, but the truth is there.

You aren't just asking whether or not the player is going to take that much time. You should be asking yourself, instead, what might wind up suffering because your leader character is not necessarily willing to spend all their time leading minions. I personally feel that if you don't want to lead, you shouldn't be asking for leadership positions just because you have more power/coin/are closer to the big plots etc. You should understand how many challenges one might posess may not be for you if helping out new players truly is an annoyance or something you don't enjoy or want to do.

[Qzzrbl]

I've noticed the Byn is damn lucky to get one contract every RL month. (I could be dead wrong)

Perhaps that is its failing, rather than recruiting.

[Zoltan]

I've noticed the Byn is damn lucky to get one contract every RL month. (I could be dead wrong)

Perhaps that is its failing, rather than recruiting.

Yeah, in my experience it can be tough sometimes to keep contracts rolling in steadily, even in the best of times (high playerbase, multiple leaders, involved staff). It's just a fact that in most of the totally awesome contracts Byn go on, it involves multiple clans and their respective imms. It can be difficult just -scheduling- something like that. Even the best Byn Sarge player can't get a contract every other day (or even every week) because sometimes there's just not any work available. And sometimes there are loads of contracts available but the leadership is swamped and/or can't find a day or time for everyone to get in on it.

[AmandaGreathouse]

I've had successful merchant PC's who've been planning to hire them, gathered enough shit that -they'd- be able to make a profit off dragging someone else into it, and then every time they've gotten ready to hire them, said PC has gotten all the shit they planned on selling stolen from their apartment.

I wish that circumstances in the game facilitated hiring them more.

There's nothing I, as a player would like better than to bring more PC's into trading trips to make them more enjoyable and more of an adventure, but a lot of things IC aren't exactly conducive to having your commoners have enough extra coin to hire people for several small to come with them when that coin could instead go to pay rent on an apartment they're 'lucky' to have, despite that they can't keep anything in it.

(Also, sorry if I offend anyone, I am in a pissy, snarky mood today.)

[Lizzie]

Leadership positions are not the exclusive domain of "people who can codedly clan other people." A lot of leaders, don't actually DO any hiring at all, and yet make useful leaders who contribute to the game world. They are leading roleplay, not individual players. They are leading plotlines, not people. They are leading by coming up with new ideas, not by coming up with new recruits. And every single time they have to hire someone new, it means all that OTHER leadership stuff has to cease, until that newly hired person is able to handle themselves without needing that leader to help them.

Consider the desert elves..they don't hire tribe members, they don't hire "employees." And yet, I know of several who have been some of the most significant influences in my own personal gaming experience with Armageddon. THIS is what makes them leaders. Not just that they can, or do, or would, ever..spend hours working with a new player's new-hire character and teaching them the syntax to talk at a table. If they had to spend a lot of their time doing that, many people would never have had the benefit of experiencing their most significant leadership qualities. They're leaders because they have orchestrated and implemented roleplay opportunities for other people.

Don't confuse playing a leadership role, with someone who is required to hire new players' characters, or even with someone who is required to hire anyone at all. Not all leaders are employers, nor are all leaders required to be employers.

[Northlander]

Even if I have no idea what the perceived problem is, I'm going to chip in with some very dated experience.

Playing a normal leadership role, my moral obligations are towards the players in my clan and the players whose characters want to interact with my clan. But the Byn has a special place in the OOC structure of the game, as the posts in this thread show. When I play a Byn Sergeant I feel obliged to provide new players with an interesting and eventful introduction to Armageddon, which is a great way to burn out.

As a second point and a possible solution to the first, perhaps the Byn is understaffed. The Militia, Merchant and Noble Houses, speaking generally, have an administrative wing, recruited through the GDB, and a military/hunting/crafting wing recruited through the game. I think the Byn could do well with some more staffing of the administrative, loyal-like-Family and likely long-lived variety. Could such a role be made interesting?

[Lizzie]

I think Northlander makes a very important point. Presently and mostly, Byn leaders are promoted in game, usually by default, when another leader dies. The new leader might or might not be qualified..might or might not even have enough experience playing Armageddon to understand the kajillion nuances of game play required to be a leader, let alone a good leader. Their players might not understand -how- their boss got all those contracts. Their players might not understand -why- House Mofo refuses to hire their crew. Their players might not understand..much. If their players are new to the game and were promoted ICly simply because they were the only ones left alive after that drop off the shield wall.

I think having a leader whose player was screened by the game staff, AS a leader..to show up in a leadership role..who has proven they are capable (or at the very least, have time)..to play a leadership position..would be a huge benefit. It's hard being a leader when you're new. It's harder when you're put there, by default, rather by earning the position.

[FantasyWriter]

I've noticed the Byn is damn lucky to get one contract every RL month. (I could be dead wrong)

Perhaps that is its failing, rather than recruiting.

I know of a clan that has been trying to get the Byn for contracts for three IC years without a troop EVER being available.

[Barren]

I've noticed the Byn is damn lucky to get one contract every RL month. (I could be dead wrong)

Perhaps that is its failing, rather than recruiting.

The Byn is entirely dependent on other groups hiring them for contracts. If people aren't hiring them that's not necessarily a failing of the Byn. When I played a Sergeant last we had a good sized group in the Byn but the only steady work we could get was from Kadius and occasionally Oash despite every contract we ever did going just fine. The other Houses were pretty much either self-sufficient or basically not doing anything that needed the Byn. I'm pretty sure there's also an element of more experienced players not wanting to bring a group that might contain new players out on something. This is where the low contact rate comes from I think. Translates into a major headache for a Byn Sergeant who has to keep the troops watered out of contract profits (at least that's the way it was not too long ago) and could lead to them being more choosy about hiring numbers.

So, in short I don't think the Byn is broken. Just needs other people to consistently make use of them as befits the best mercenary group around. Though with noble stipends being what they are this might be problematical. Independents usually have a far easier time being able to afford their rates it seems. The completely out of whack level of coin indies have vs. a noble stipend is a whole other debate though.

[Salt Merchant]

If and when you play a Byn sergeant, you may play him differently.

And what brytta said, too. Be the change you want to see. Do something IC about it. Or not, whatever makes sense.

Eyeball must have been tempted to say it, but that's kind of hard if he can't get in! 

[Zoltan]

If and when you play a Byn sergeant, you may play him differently.

And what brytta said, too. Be the change you want to see. Do something IC about it. Or not, whatever makes sense.

Eyeball must have been tempted to say it, but that's kind of hard if he can't get in! 

Heh, you got me there.