Training rooms idea

[UnderSeven]

Masterofthat:  This is why I agree with your putting a mercy in prompt.  But while I understand your point about mercy forgetting is an ooc mistake, couldn't it be the equivilant to icly forgetting to pull your blows?  I'm okay with making it easier to remember to use mercy, but against making it impossible to forget.  Mainly I Think that code solutions to the possibility to forgetting is ultimately less realistic than someone being careless in a sparing match, which could equate to the ooc carelessness of forgetting to check mercy.  Furthermore I don't really buy your fencing comparisons.  For one, fencing is a sport, it uses more protective gear in some ways and much lighter weapons.  It is designed to be a sport, it is not the same as sparring with intent to learn to kill people.  I would compare arm sparring more to how they might of done it in the middle ages or feudal japan.  Where they probably used much harder weapons and had a ton more accidents than ever occur in modern day fencing.  As to the daze thing, I use boxing and ultimate fighting as a cited example.  When people look momentarily dazed they usually get hammered until the ref stops it, in the case of boxing if they are still standing but probably knocked out, they might well get hit.  Unconscious doesn't mean physicially laying  on the ground IMO and those hits that kill people might be delivered while someone is stil actually on their feet, but beyond the point where they can defend themselves.

I still stand by my earlier statements.

In the UFC, people get hammered until the ref stops it because those are the rules:  if you stop voluntarily and the guy manages to recover, tough beans, you have to keep fighting...regardless of whether he really was unconscious for a moment or not.  Most fighters would probably prefer -not- to continue hammering downed opponents, because it becomes obviously pointless.  This is a rule because it is a COMPETITION:  you need a clear, undisputed winner, so the rules are written to guarantee that such a winner is produced.  Sparring matches are not such competitions.  I've rolled with half a dozen Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu black belts, and guess what:  not a single one of them even got close to breaking my arm or choking me to the point of unconsciousness, even though they all had the ability to do so at will.  It just doesn't happen, man.

In fact, in a recent fight between Matt Brown and Pete Sell, Brown actually yelled at the ref to stop the fight, because Sell was obviously out on his feet, stumbling around, and entirely unable to defend himself...but the ref wouldn't stop it because he was still technically upright.  Eventually, he punched him a couple more times, the ref stopped it, and Brown apologized to the crowd afterward for having been forced to do it.

Furthermore, your argument that forgetting OOCly to turn mercy on is equivalent to an IC mistake is complete bullshit:  it's like saying that people who type "k templar" instead of "l templar" actually made the IC mistake of running up and giving Lord Templar Hardnose a big ol' smooch.

With respect to protective gear:  most people who are sparring are wearing gear designed to protect them from REAL weapons.  They're wearing the regular armor they roll out with to fight gith, raiders, and mekillots.  Compared to the protective gear folks wear in competitive sports, this stuff is much heavier, and probably much more effective.  So this argument that people aren't wearing protective gear is complete bullshit.

Modern day, the art of kendo is probably most appicable to Byn-style sparring.  Google "kendo injuries," and what do you find?  The most common injuries are foot and ankle sprains, due to general human clumsiness.  PubMed returns two extremely unusual cases of people being injured in kendo sparring:  one had an aneurysm of the internal carotid artery that was caused by his neck protector being too tight (they made it clear that the cause was not blunt trauma to the area), and another with pneumomediastinum (air in the space between the lungs) caused by a blow to the trachea.  People aren't getting their motherfucking heads chopped off by accident with wooden kendo swords, despite the fact they're etwo'ing some very substantial wooden weapons and wearing a lot less protective gear than your average Bynner:



I'm not sure why you're so keen on continuing to allow people to be killed in sparring.  It's not realistic.  It is lame and annoying.

I'll grant you the UFC arguement, frankly I just don't have enough background in it, but kendo I do.  Those weapons are made out of high flexible bamboo and hollow, unlike the solid wooden sticks they use for their katas.  Why don't they use the solid wooden things? Because you could kill someone that way, but what do they use in arm?  Solid training weapons, check out the descs.  Dulled edges maybe, but they are solid, they are hard, they could kill.  Another thing about kendo is you know exactly where your opponent will strike.  You have the top of the head, the neck, the body and the wrist.  Any other strike wouldn't be counted as a hit and therefore no one is going to purposefully aim for them.  You can't possibly compare such a stylized form of sports to armageddon.

Your arguement that forgetting to put mercy on is the same as k templar instead of look templar is apples and oranges.  One is a typo, the other is carelessness.  Ultimately all actions come from the player. If the player forgets to pack his water do was say it was ooc because the character wouldn't of forgotten to do that?  No.  This is not a matter of one key being close to the other and one command later splat, this is a matter of carelessness.  As I've stated I'd be all about making it easier to be less careless, but as I've also stated before the part I'm against is making it blatantly impossible to be careless in this nature.

As to the arguement about about the protective gear, true, it is for protecting against real weapons, but if you look at the real weapons in arm, they're not that much lighter than the stuff people train with.  People train with nasty weapons in arm, they're solid, they are typically hard.  Many organizations prefer the harder stuff so they don't break and so on.  

I will close with this. I've played arm a long time and been in many orgnizations that spar.  I have seen many sparing accidents but never once been on either side of the sparring accidents.  Never has my char died or killed a char during sparring.  They've passed out, they have gotten hit below regen but that was it.  Careful sparring, such as not matching up with people whose sheer brute force could kill you, paying close attention to the harm you are doing to yourself and your opponent and being REALISTIC about your own health during sparring should result in never getting a single accident.  Even without the use of mercy the aformentioned strategies have never failed me.  If you get knocked out and your opponent doesn't have mercy they'll get one free swing at you and then they will stop, you have to type kill again to keep trying after someone is downed.  It isn't like the combat code forces you to wail on someone until they die.  

I agree that having mercy a prompt option would be nice, but frankly I will continue to stand firm, the code is not broken here.  If anything this is ic.  Are the weapons too hard? Ask for softer ones.  Are people getting knocked out a lot?  Tell them to pay attention to stun, or for god sakes don't spar half giants if you'r not one yourself.  Are you not quitting spar until you are right around the regen limit?  you should consider that not regenning hp represents a serious injury that requires medical attention, sure you can sleep it off codically but my point is I am not in the least convinced that a vast majority of these training accidents are not the fault of the pcs involved.

If I missed any of your points Synthesis I'll gladly try and get them if you point them out, but I am in favor of a mercy in prompt option.

[UnderSeven]

Another thing Synth, I would prefer if you didn't call people's arguements bullshit, that's escalating this farther than any discussion on the GDB need go.

[UnderSeven]

2.  We should have more tools available to prevent this from happening.  Strong dwarves should not be sparring murder machines.  Neither should half-giants or muls.  There's no reason why someone should have to attack a mul or half-giant and wait for the half-giant's player to type 'disengage,' all the while praying he doesn't land a kill-shot.  The half-giant should never even attack in the first place, if his only goal is to defend himself during the match.  Sparring weapons should probably have hard caps (15-20 hp max) on the amount of damage they can inflict, even on an unconscious person, when wielded by a mul, for playability's sake.

I don't see why this can't be handled ic by people demanding softer weapons.

[Fathi]

2.  We should have more tools available to prevent this from happening.  Strong dwarves should not be sparring murder machines.  Neither should half-giants or muls.  There's no reason why someone should have to attack a mul or half-giant and wait for the half-giant's player to type 'disengage,' all the while praying he doesn't land a kill-shot.  The half-giant should never even attack in the first place, if his only goal is to defend himself during the match.  Sparring weapons should probably have hard caps (15-20 hp max) on the amount of damage they can inflict, even on an unconscious person, when wielded by a mul, for playability's sake.

I don't see why this can't be handled ic by people demanding softer weapons.

If you want this to happen under the game's current policies, you would have to:

1. Contact your friendly neighbourhood Salarri.
2. Place an order that will be at least 2000+ coins, probably more.
3. Wait for said Salarri to hire and train a master crafter in the weaponskill type of the training weapon you want.
4. Wait however long it takes to actually get the item made.

... All that coin, time, and effort in order to get a hollow wooden stick that won't accidentally kill your buddies.

Not to mention that when you request a mastercrafted item, you aren't allowed to stipulate anything about the OOC nature of its construction. You would just have to hope that Salarr's imms understand what you're going for and that the PC agent and PC crafter cater well enough to your requests.

Not that I'm sure you don't already know this. Most people do, it's been the game's policy for years.

But you wanted to know why people wouldn't try to fix this ICly, and that's why. The barriers are entirely OOC as they exist due to the OOC nature of the mastercrafting policy. Sure, said policy possibly isn't an issue if there's an imm around who thinks the pursuit is worthy and has the spare time, but you can't always bet on somebody being willing to break the rules for you.

[UnderSeven]

2.  We should have more tools available to prevent this from happening.  Strong dwarves should not be sparring murder machines.  Neither should half-giants or muls.  There's no reason why someone should have to attack a mul or half-giant and wait for the half-giant's player to type 'disengage,' all the while praying he doesn't land a kill-shot.  The half-giant should never even attack in the first place, if his only goal is to defend himself during the match.  Sparring weapons should probably have hard caps (15-20 hp max) on the amount of damage they can inflict, even on an unconscious person, when wielded by a mul, for playability's sake.

I don't see why this can't be handled ic by people demanding softer weapons.

If you want this to happen under the game's current policies, you would have to:

1. Contact your friendly neighbourhood Salarri.
2. Place an order that will be at least 2000+ coins, probably more.
3. Wait for said Salarri to hire and train a master crafter in the weaponskill type of the training weapon you want.
4. Wait however long it takes to actually get the item made.

... All that coin, time, and effort in order to get a hollow wooden stick that won't accidentally kill your buddies.

Not to mention that when you request a mastercrafted item, you aren't allowed to stipulate anything about the OOC nature of its construction. You would just have to hope that Salarr's imms understand what you're going for and that the PC agent and PC crafter cater well enough to your requests.

Not that I'm sure you don't already know this. Most people do, it's been the game's policy for years.

But you wanted to know why people wouldn't try to fix this ICly, and that's why. The barriers are entirely OOC as they exist due to the OOC nature of the mastercrafting policy. Sure, said policy possibly isn't an issue if there's an imm around who thinks the pursuit is worthy and has the spare time, but you can't always bet on somebody being willing to break the rules for you.

Without going into if I agree with you or not, I don't see how the ic method of handling it I suggested then is any different than the ooc methods of handling it.  Either way you need staff member support to have it done, either via them agreeing to create and instatute new code, or them agreeing to make the practice weapons with the desired numbers.  Personally I believe the weapons with the proper desired numbers are more likely to see if the intent behind the weapon is made abudantly clear.

[Fathi]

2.  We should have more tools available to prevent this from happening.  Strong dwarves should not be sparring murder machines.  Neither should half-giants or muls.  There's no reason why someone should have to attack a mul or half-giant and wait for the half-giant's player to type 'disengage,' all the while praying he doesn't land a kill-shot.  The half-giant should never even attack in the first place, if his only goal is to defend himself during the match.  Sparring weapons should probably have hard caps (15-20 hp max) on the amount of damage they can inflict, even on an unconscious person, when wielded by a mul, for playability's sake.

I don't see why this can't be handled ic by people demanding softer weapons.

If you want this to happen under the game's current policies, you would have to:

1. Contact your friendly neighbourhood Salarri.
2. Place an order that will be at least 2000+ coins, probably more.
3. Wait for said Salarri to hire and train a master crafter in the weaponskill type of the training weapon you want.
4. Wait however long it takes to actually get the item made.

... All that coin, time, and effort in order to get a hollow wooden stick that won't accidentally kill your buddies.

Not to mention that when you request a mastercrafted item, you aren't allowed to stipulate anything about the OOC nature of its construction. You would just have to hope that Salarr's imms understand what you're going for and that the PC agent and PC crafter cater well enough to your requests.

Not that I'm sure you don't already know this. Most people do, it's been the game's policy for years.

But you wanted to know why people wouldn't try to fix this ICly, and that's why. The barriers are entirely OOC as they exist due to the OOC nature of the mastercrafting policy. Sure, said policy possibly isn't an issue if there's an imm around who thinks the pursuit is worthy and has the spare time, but you can't always bet on somebody being willing to break the rules for you.

Without going into if I agree with you or not, I don't see how the ic method of handling it I suggested then is any different than the ooc methods of handling it.  Either way you need staff member support to have it done, either via them agreeing to create and instatute new code, or them agreeing to make the practice weapons with the desired numbers. 

Nah, it isn't different at all, you're right there. You just mentioned that you didn't understand why people weren't trying to handle it IC, and I pointed out my opinion on why I think that is: there's just as many OOC hurdles to jump over. If there's going to be a lot of OOC barriers to getting it done whether you handle the issue ICly or OOCly, I think a lot of people would prefer to just handle it OOCly because it is, in their eyes, an OOC problem.

[SMuz]

I've always assumed that Zalanthans never figured out the proper technique to pull back weapons in combat so they just slam it in all the way for the sake of practice

But so far, most sparring accidents I've ever seen was due to clubs. Rarely seen one from other weapons. That makes perfect sense though, a sparring club is a big, heavy stick that would have to function much like a real club. Like real clubs, it's also made of bone. Bone swords and spears are also not too far away from real ones, though I think a blunted spear IC is a bit more powerful than it should be. I think wrapping a bit of soft leather around the edge of a weapon is all you need for a softer weapon, though.

[Riev]

I've come awfully close before, without clubs. But in fairness, its because I was already at about 65% health, and some Sergeant or above had ridiculous strength, and got a lucky shot to the head or the neck, dealing a wounding damage to bring me at like 30hp.


That stuff, is fun to RP. When an HG or a Mul double-tap you (meaning one hit knockout, next hit death) the RP experience is....waning.


The secret? Do. Not. Spar. HGs. And. Muls. If you feel like you must, tell them they are not allowed to use a weapon. Muls are slaves, and have to listen, and HGs are kids, and probably will do it anyways

[alicedavignon]

I agree that having mercy a prompt option would be nice, but frankly I will continue to stand firm, the code is not broken here.  If anything this is ic.  Are the weapons too hard?

Once again, I would have to disagree. Whether the weapons hit too hard, the armour deflects too little damage or you disagree with the current combat system is the a completely different story. This isn't what this is about. What I'm saying is that characters should have basic common sense and not literary cut their opponents throat when they fall unconscious. If you disagree with this idea, would you also support the removal of the Shield Wall "n now" command? Essentially, this is the same sort of thing. Getting finished off in a spar is not realistic.

[UnderSeven]

Alicedragon,

I would ask what you think the difference is between having it display in prompt is different.  When it's in your face like that it would take a collosal level of carelessness to forget about mercy when it is staring you in the face.  I think if that code option was given to people and they still failed to have mercy set then I would equate that to someone who wasn't pulling their shots or not aiming for eyes.. ect.

But I think we might just might have to agree to disagree.

[Ampere]

Alicedragon,

I would ask what you think the difference is between having it display in prompt is different.  When it's in your face like that it would take a collosal level of carelessness to forget about mercy when it is staring you in the face.  I think if that code option was given to people and they still failed to have mercy set then I would equate that to someone who wasn't pulling their shots or not aiming for eyes.. ect.

But I think we might just might have to agree to disagree.

I think you'll have to make that agreement with alot of people. I don't see another seven characters (spaces not included) added onto my prompt as an actual solution, sparring accidents are unrealistic.  That is the problem.  Mercy has it's place, when I want to torture someone. Something entirely different than the current system would be ideal.  Like a 'nil' for smackdown. I'm not a coder, and I don't even see this as a priority, but what we have here is an OOC problem, not an IC oversight.

Oh, and D'avignon is a frog surname.

[alicedavignon]

Alicedragon,

I would ask what you think the difference is between having it display in prompt is different.  When it's in your face like that it would take a collosal level of carelessness to forget about mercy when it is staring you in the face.  I think if that code option was given to people and they still failed to have mercy set then I would equate that to someone who wasn't pulling their shots or not aiming for eyes.. ect.

But I think we might just might have to agree to disagree.

There are a couple of problems with the prompt idea:

• As M. Ampere already stated, it takes away precious space when you only really need it within the training rooms
• It doesn't solve the problem for the people who have it off or, to a lesser degree, newer characters
• I, for one, overlook the infos on my prompt all the time

It's not a priority, but, as I've said before, I would be in favour of a "kill X now"/auto-mercy command for training rooms.

[Agent_137]

i hate to repost my idea, but what's so bad about "automatically alerting the player who doesn't have mercy on when they enter a training room"?

[SMuz]

i hate to repost my idea, but what's so bad about "automatically alerting the player who doesn't have mercy on when they enter a training room"?

Hate to repost my answer, but it's OOC jarring. Not a bad idea if it's a setting, though, i.e. you can turn off the notification.

[Agent_137]

i hate to repost my idea, but what's so bad about "automatically alerting the player who doesn't have mercy on when they enter a training room"?

Hate to repost my answer, but it's OOC jarring. Not a bad idea if it's a setting, though, i.e. you can turn off the notification.

as jarring as silently enabling your Mercy On and somehow telling you that you have to type Kill again to really kill? Or asking you to put it in your prompt where you have to look at it all the time or remember to turn it on? (if you can remember that, you can remember to just enable mercy.)

How is it any more jarring that typing STAT? Do you ever type STAT while playing? How is it more jarring than the notification when you leave the gates that your char is being saved?

[SMuz]

Good point. I was imagining something among the lines of
*BEEP* Your mercy is not on. Please turn mercy on unless you are planning a sparring accident.

[LoD]

Good point. I was imagining something among the lines of
*BEEP* Your mercy is not on. Please turn mercy on unless you are planning a sparring accident.

Code Select Expand

Outer Yard [EW]

>west

You walk west.

Mercy On.
Training Yard [EW]
The tall, muscular man is here, stretching out.

It's treating a symptom more than the disease, but I wouldn't find it jarring.

-LoD

[alicedavignon]

i hate to repost my idea, but what's so bad about "automatically alerting the player who doesn't have mercy on when they enter a training room"?

Hate to repost my answer, but it's OOC jarring. Not a bad idea if it's a setting, though, i.e. you can turn off the notification.

as jarring as silently enabling your Mercy On and somehow telling you that you have to type Kill again to really kill?...

I'd prefer your idea to nothing it all, but I think it's a little more jaring than the "kill X now" command. Honest question: How often did you need to kill someone within the training ring? If it was for me I'd make it an automatic, silent "mercy on" on entry and restore to previous status on exit.

Don't get me wrong, it's much MUCH better than what we have now.