Training rooms idea

[UnderSeven]

There was a lot to read here, but I'm going to have to say I disagree with this.

The fact is people in this game are training with dangeruos weapons, often sticks, not padded, just straight up sticks.  Sticks are very lethal and in the hands of a dwarf, well even more so.  If you consider armageddon weapons in general, few are more than sticks anyway. Armor helps, but accidents can/do/should happen.  I think it's very realistic that you can die in training like this and a code manditory mercy or checking for mercy.. ect would actually make this less realistic.  You might argue that my character would never hit x or y character when they were down, but if you think about our hit point system, it is kind of already not very realistic.  One solid enough hit to the temple, or the neck with a wooden stick could probably kill you, but arm really doesn't support those types of one hit critical kill shots for good reason. 

In conclusion, I think the code is just fine as is.

[alicedavignon]

Armor helps, but accidents can/do/should happen ... You might argue that my character would never hit x or y character when they were down, but if you think about our hit point system, it is kind of already not very realistic. 

Look, I fully agree. Sure, if I sparred a HG and he scored a very hard hit on my head, it would only make sense that my character would fall down with barely any HP, at best. The important bit is that the HG, unless he is completely dumb or insane, wouldn't keep hitting my unmoving body afterwards, neither IC, nor would the OOC player would like to do that. This isn't an issue with the combat system in general, but a lacking feature in the MERCY ability.

What does does MERCY mean specifically? I instruct the system that my character doesn't want to kill his opponents. It is obvious that I would (almost) always want to have MERCY on when training, however players tend to forget or, sometimes, don't even know that this sort of thing exists, thus resulting in kills that are, to say the least, annoying for everybody without having any value to RP, i.e. "So one of our privates, Joe, died because his sparring partner, Doe, forgot to stop sticking those daggers into his eye-sockets after Joe was lying on the ground unconscious for about 10 minutes."

When the accidents you're talking about take place IRL, it's either because the blunt weapon broke during a lunge and the sharp broken off part went into somebodies stomach/chest (fencing), because someone hit someone else very hard from a wrong angle (boxing/kendo), etc. Nobody gets harmed during a training session because the other individual decided it would be a nifty idea to cut his opponents throat in while he is passed out. This shouldn't happen in ARM either.

To summarise, accidents are fine; synthetic accidents, resulting from the fact that the system didn't catch the obvious lack of player's killing intent, aren't.

[SMuz]

Well, generally, the more experienced the player is with the combat system, the less likely he is to do it. Lesson is - don't spar newbies, especially with a weak char

[alicedavignon]

Well, generally, the more experienced the player is with the combat system, the less likely he is to do it. Lesson is - don't spar newbies, especially with a weak char

Yes, but this is once again creating a 4th wall. The newbie characters should also have a at least a grain of common sense. Then again, I've seen quite a few people, who I'd consider experienced, forgetting to turn on their Mercy. This isn't the sort of thing that should penalise both players, because one of them got carried away or has a bad memory.

You could just as well argue that we should remove that "if you really want to go north and fall off the cliff, press <N now>". It's an OOC protection against something no IC character would do anyway.

[Riev]

Just because, once, I kept punching you in the face while your down, means nothing about mercy code! Maybe I just wanted to rough you up!


I definitely once, alt-tabbed while sparring UNARMED with someone. When I came back in (3s later) I was like "Hey cool, like three hits to.. the head.... wait a minute.... OH FUCK OH FUCK."

Moral of the story, don't spar with mercy off and alt-tab to watch youtube videos.

[alicedavignon]

Just because, once, I kept punching you in the face while your down, means nothing about mercy code! Maybe I just wanted to rough you up!

I was actually refering to another time when my character dropped from 85% to 5% when he passed out from a very hard mace hit on the head. Whole other story.

[Mechafish]

Just because, once, I kept punching you in the face while your down, means nothing about mercy code! Maybe I just wanted to rough you up!

I was actually refering to another time when my character dropped from 85% to 5% when he passed out from a very hard mace hit on the head. Whole other story.

Happeded to me too.

[SMuz]

Well, yeah, accidents happen. Like junking your shield, accidentally typing 'kick' instead of 'dump', hitting your mount, when trying to hit some other beetle, backstabbing a friend when trying to 'kill figure'. We can't have OOC alerts for all of them, it'll be annoying. As much as I sympathize, I don't want to see this one implemented. If you're really that worried about it type "OOC Make sure you type 'mercy on', please" before starting a fight. Better than having an auto alert every time.

[alicedavignon]

Well, yeah, accidents happen. Like junking your shield, accidentally typing 'kick' instead of 'dump', hitting your mount, when trying to hit some other beetle, backstabbing a friend when trying to 'kill figure'. We can't have OOC alerts for all of them, it'll be annoying. As much as I sympathize, I don't want to see this one implemented. If you're really that worried about it type "OOC Make sure you type 'mercy on', please" before starting a fight. Better than having an auto alert every time.

Frankly, I think that quite a few of those should be implemented as well (e.g. hitting your hitched mount instead of some other random beetle). Once you start killing your beetles, friends, etc. because the system doesn't differentiate between "a warbeetle" and your "a warbeetle", it is a rudimentary design flaw and should be fixed. It doesn't make the world appear harsher, realistic or whatever. Just plain annoying and stupidly breaking the immersion.

[Eloran]

Has too much time passed for people to have forgotten about Henna? 

Even with mercy on, she could kill someone in two shots.

Sometimes...shit happens.

[Agent_137]

Has too much time passed for people to have forgotten about Henna? 

Even with mercy on, she could kill someone in two shots.

Sometimes...shit happens.

no we havent. see my post earlier in the thread:

Many years ago, i was witness to this type of event. Trooper Henna killed Runner Raleth right before the eyes of his brother, Runner Rame (me.) Henna was a dwarf, using sparring clubs, with mercy ON. it was a one hit immediate kill through Raleth's helmet. He had over 80 health before the hit and was warrior class.

[Masterofthat]

Just a suggestion but maybe an option to have your mercy status in your prompt? Could be handy both for accidental sparring with mercy off and fighting properly with mercy on.

[Mechafish]

I think that could help having that status in your prompt...I agree with this.

[SMuz]

Just a suggestion but maybe an option to have your mercy status in your prompt? Could be handy both for accidental sparring with mercy off and fighting properly with mercy on.

I like that idea

[UnderSeven]

To summarise, accidents are fine; synthetic accidents, resulting from the fact that the system didn't catch the obvious lack of player's killing intent, aren't.

You say you find accidents undestandable and reasonable but then you go and suggest a system that would remove any accident from occuring.  Lets review.  Mercy flag means you will try not to kill anyone.  Forgetting to put the mercy flag on = an accident.  A code way to prevent someone from forgetting the flag or making training rooms auto accidents means it is virtually going to be impossible for an accident to happen.  Like an invisible hand of god sitting there that does nothing but stop people from unintentionally hurting one another.  So you're against accidents happening.  My problem is that isn't particularly realistic. 

You arguement seems to be that you wouldn't smash someone while they were down.  But I'm not convinced you've thought this through.  Sparring consists of trying to hit each other, find opening and exploit them,  You're not just swinging at each other's swords, you're swinging at each other.  I bring this up because you do, infact, hit people while they are down all the time in sparring.  You bash someone, and then you continue to try to hit them, disarm, ect.  SO how would a character who is looking for such an opening as you opponent falling (Cause I just established hitting down people is fair game) going to tell the difference between a moment of dazed ness due to having run out of stun vs a moment of dazed ness because they tripped up.  Honestly the fact that people don't fall in arm combat all the time because of just tripping and losing balance is more unrealistic.  The fact is your arguement hinges on that people wouldn't hit each other while they're down, but that's wrong, unless you specifically type disengage everytime your opponent falls (and some people probably do) then you infact do hit your opponent while they are down.

So in closing, the code is fine the way it is, training accidents happen and forgetting to turn the mercy flag on is, in my view, a prime example of an accident.

[UnderSeven]

Just a suggestion but maybe an option to have your mercy status in your prompt? Could be handy both for accidental sparring with mercy off and fighting properly with mercy on.

I think this is a fine suggestion too.

[Masterofthat]

But not putting the mercy flag on is not the same as accidentally hitting someone it is the same as forgetting you don't want to kill someone. I do fencing and not putting mercy on would be the same as me going to a match with the intention of driving my Foil straight through my opponents throat as opposed to say me accidentally hitting their throat. Accidents can still happen with mercy off, there are some examples earlier in this post and they are fairly realistic.

Also when you run out of stun you faint, getting woozy from a blow seems mainly up to players to emote 0 stun = lights out, only an idiot wouldn't realise someone just fainted, it's the difference between hitting someone on the ground who probably just whacked your shins or hitting someone who is lying there unmoving.

Finally I know when fencing at least you don't try to hit someone very hard, whilst someone sparring in zalanthas would be much rougher than during a sport on earth they still wouldn't be trying to hit someone too hard, if I lunge sure I'm trying to hit their body and do it fast but I'm not trying to do it hard I could lunge with enough force to put an unnibbed foil straight through them but why would I? It would just hurt them unnecessarily.

[UnderSeven]

Masterofthat:  This is why I agree with your putting a mercy in prompt.  But while I understand your point about mercy forgetting is an ooc mistake, couldn't it be the equivilant to icly forgetting to pull your blows?  I'm okay with making it easier to remember to use mercy, but against making it impossible to forget.  Mainly I Think that code solutions to the possibility to forgetting is ultimately less realistic than someone being careless in a sparing match, which could equate to the ooc carelessness of forgetting to check mercy.  Furthermore I don't really buy your fencing comparisons.  For one, fencing is a sport, it uses more protective gear in some ways and much lighter weapons.  It is designed to be a sport, it is not the same as sparring with intent to learn to kill people.  I would compare arm sparring more to how they might of done it in the middle ages or feudal japan.  Where they probably used much harder weapons and had a ton more accidents than ever occur in modern day fencing.  As to the daze thing, I use boxing and ultimate fighting as a cited example.  When people look momentarily dazed they usually get hammered until the ref stops it, in the case of boxing if they are still standing but probably knocked out, they might well get hit.  Unconscious doesn't mean physicially laying  on the ground IMO and those hits that kill people might be delivered while someone is stil actually on their feet, but beyond the point where they can defend themselves.

I still stand by my earlier statements.

[Synthesis]

Masterofthat:  This is why I agree with your putting a mercy in prompt.  But while I understand your point about mercy forgetting is an ooc mistake, couldn't it be the equivilant to icly forgetting to pull your blows?  I'm okay with making it easier to remember to use mercy, but against making it impossible to forget.  Mainly I Think that code solutions to the possibility to forgetting is ultimately less realistic than someone being careless in a sparing match, which could equate to the ooc carelessness of forgetting to check mercy.  Furthermore I don't really buy your fencing comparisons.  For one, fencing is a sport, it uses more protective gear in some ways and much lighter weapons.  It is designed to be a sport, it is not the same as sparring with intent to learn to kill people.  I would compare arm sparring more to how they might of done it in the middle ages or feudal japan.  Where they probably used much harder weapons and had a ton more accidents than ever occur in modern day fencing.  As to the daze thing, I use boxing and ultimate fighting as a cited example.  When people look momentarily dazed they usually get hammered until the ref stops it, in the case of boxing if they are still standing but probably knocked out, they might well get hit.  Unconscious doesn't mean physicially laying  on the ground IMO and those hits that kill people might be delivered while someone is stil actually on their feet, but beyond the point where they can defend themselves.

I still stand by my earlier statements.

In the UFC, people get hammered until the ref stops it because those are the rules:  if you stop voluntarily and the guy manages to recover, tough beans, you have to keep fighting...regardless of whether he really was unconscious for a moment or not.  Most fighters would probably prefer -not- to continue hammering downed opponents, because it becomes obviously pointless.  This is a rule because it is a COMPETITION:  you need a clear, undisputed winner, so the rules are written to guarantee that such a winner is produced.  Sparring matches are not such competitions.  I've rolled with half a dozen Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu black belts, and guess what:  not a single one of them even got close to breaking my arm or choking me to the point of unconsciousness, even though they all had the ability to do so at will.  It just doesn't happen, man.

In fact, in a recent fight between Matt Brown and Pete Sell, Brown actually yelled at the ref to stop the fight, because Sell was obviously out on his feet, stumbling around, and entirely unable to defend himself...but the ref wouldn't stop it because he was still technically upright.  Eventually, he punched him a couple more times, the ref stopped it, and Brown apologized to the crowd afterward for having been forced to do it.

Furthermore, your argument that forgetting OOCly to turn mercy on is equivalent to an IC mistake is complete bullshit:  it's like saying that people who type "k templar" instead of "l templar" actually made the IC mistake of running up and giving Lord Templar Hardnose a big ol' smooch.

With respect to protective gear:  most people who are sparring are wearing gear designed to protect them from REAL weapons.  They're wearing the regular armor they roll out with to fight gith, raiders, and mekillots.  Compared to the protective gear folks wear in competitive sports, this stuff is much heavier, and probably much more effective.  So this argument that people aren't wearing protective gear is complete bullshit.

Modern day, the art of kendo is probably most appicable to Byn-style sparring.  Google "kendo injuries," and what do you find?  The most common injuries are foot and ankle sprains, due to general human clumsiness.  PubMed returns two extremely unusual cases of people being injured in kendo sparring:  one had an aneurysm of the internal carotid artery that was caused by his neck protector being too tight (they made it clear that the cause was not blunt trauma to the area), and another with pneumomediastinum (air in the space between the lungs) caused by a blow to the trachea.  People aren't getting their motherfucking heads chopped off by accident with wooden kendo swords, despite the fact they're etwo'ing some very substantial wooden weapons and wearing a lot less protective gear than your average Bynner:



I'm not sure why you're so keen on continuing to allow people to be killed in sparring.  It's not realistic.  It is lame and annoying.

[Is Friday]

I've had/seen more than 5-6 characters purposefully murdered in the training area with training weapons.

I'm not sure how that contributes to the thread, but I think it does.

[Gagula]

I've had/seen more than 5-6 characters purposefully murdered in the training area with training weapons.

I'm not sure how that contributes to the thread, but I think it does.

Simply enough that when you want to kill someone intentionally that you can do so.....but personally I think that if I were going to "accidentally" kill you, I'd knock you down, and slit your throat with my skinning knife.

[Is Friday]

I just think that if you're going to hit somebody so hard that they get knocked out with a training weapon, the chances of breaking it should increase dramatically.

I don't think the break/strength ratio is very good right now.

[Synthesis]

I've had/seen more than 5-6 characters purposefully murdered in the training area with training weapons.

I'm not sure how that contributes to the thread, but I think it does.

I think this shit should be stopped.

If you're going to kill someone, you should have to do it blatantly, by pulling out a real sword and slicing them up.

None of this "oh, it was a sparring accident. Whoops. lol" crap.  Intentionally killing someone (OOCly) and trying to pass it off as a "sparring accident" (ICly) is garbage.  It's equivalent to any other sort of metagaming twinkery bullshit.

I've personally only had one character die in sparring:  to a newb who had "kick" queued back before the "stop" and "disengage" commands were added, so it was understandable.

I have two general thoughts on the issue:

1.  With all the tools we now have available to prevent sparring accidents, killing someone in training should be just as inexcusable ICly as it is OOCly.  If I were in a leadership position and someone killed one of my recruits in sparring, I would treat it as a murder, with very few exceptions.

2.  We should have more tools available to prevent this from happening.  Strong dwarves should not be sparring murder machines.  Neither should half-giants or muls.  There's no reason why someone should have to attack a mul or half-giant and wait for the half-giant's player to type 'disengage,' all the while praying he doesn't land a kill-shot.  The half-giant should never even attack in the first place, if his only goal is to defend himself during the match.  Sparring weapons should probably have hard caps (15-20 hp max) on the amount of damage they can inflict, even on an unconscious person, when wielded by a mul, for playability's sake.

[AmandaGreathouse]

We should have more tools available to prevent this from happening.  Strong dwarves should not be sparring murder machines.  Neither should half-giants or muls.  There's no reason why someone should have to attack a mul or half-giant and wait for the half-giant's player to type 'disengage,' all the while praying he doesn't land a kill-shot.  The half-giant should never even attack in the first place, if his only goal is to defend himself during the match.  Sparring weapons should probably have hard caps (15-20 hp max) on the amount of damage they can inflict, even on an unconscious person, when wielded by a mul, for playability's sake.

I don't generally spar IG, ever, and there's a reason for it. That reason is the entirety of Synthesis' last post. Very, -very- nicely put.

[rishenko]

It would be great if we could "pull punches" while sparring.  You set your max amount of hp loss to be given or some such and it hovers near that amount. 

In nearly all martial arts, one of the most important things anybody learns at the beginning is control.  Control over your temper, over your strikes, over the amount of force and speed with which you attack.  That way, as you progress and move into the higher belts/ranks/whatever, you are able to perform the more complex, harmful moves in such a way as to not destroy your sparring partner.  It also keeps people from getting hit as hard, becoming psycho pissed, and lashing out in full at their competitor.

Arm is the exact opposite.  There is no control, there is no care given to fighting somebody who is far less than your ability, there is nothing about teaching and working with them.  There is only a full-on, no holds-barred attempt to fucking pulverize them into a bloody mess as fast as stumpily possible.

Code Select Expand


The short, lanky man purses his lips as he lifts the sword and looks it over with a considering squint.

Holding the quivering blade with a gaze that shows an infinite amount of nervousness, the short, lanky
man says to the hulking, wide-eyed dwarf, in sirihish,
     "Alright... This end up?  Okay, we're good.  Sarge, I'm ready!"

Raising his own wooden axe high above his head with a bellowing roar, the hulking, wide-eyed dwarf
exclaims at the short, lanky man, in sirihish,
     "RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAPE!"

The hulking, wide-eyed dwarf attacks the short, lanky man.
The hulking, wide-eyed dwarf chops the short, lanky man's head for unspeakable damage.