Training rooms idea

[alicedavignon]

Do you know these cases when you have a XY days old sub-par character (e.g. elf assassin) training with Byn, Legions, whatever just to get killed within the training room by somebody who made a dwarf/human warrior and rolled nice stats and likes clubs? This happened to me before (half-elf assassin vs warrior human, probably played by someone very new to this game) and was pretty annoying. Just now almost the same thing repeated, but the player, thankfully, knew what he was doing.

What I'm suggesting is something along the lines of Mercy that is mandatory for training rooms, but can be overridden with "kill X now" similarly to how you jump off the Shield Wall. I might be guessing, but most of the time when this sort of thing happens, it is either because the player doesn't know about mercy or simply forgot to put it on. It's a code issue that could cause RP damage (I mean, common, you don't beat your friend dead once he passes out).

What do you think?

[Gunnerblaster]

I agree. If, in real life, I was ever having a nice little ringer with a friend - I wouldn't smash his skull in the moment he crumples to the ground or I'm not going to go, "Oh sweet! He's down!" and chop his head off.

I am getting very tired of using corney excuses when telling someone else why their friend or some super high ranking superior was off'd in a training drill.

I would prefer that training areas should have an 'auto-mercy' feature. If you want to turn it off, then you toggle "mercy off" manually. Not very hard.

[FantasyWriter]

If I get below 70% of my HPs, I flee... I don't disengage, I don't wait on them to disengage I get the feck out.
Sparring down to 50% or less of your HP is bad OOC, just think, you are HALF DEAD.

Pretty sure no NORMAL PC other than a HG or a mul can two or three hit kill a PC with sparring weapons.
I think most sparring deaths happen by people getting too comfortable with letting their HP get too low.
(plus people stupid enough to spar HG and muls, which most clans have OOC rules against doing so)

[Bushranger]

Just like walking through city gates 'forces' a save on your character. Walking into a training room should 'force' mercy on. As Gunnerblaster says, when the intention is to kill in a training room the player can easily set mercy off before they fight. Three fallout mutated thumbs up.

I do agree that some folks are too comfortable about sparring till they are very low HP, but I can also see other things like loosing connection during sparring with folks who forgot to set mercy on before initiating combat being solved by this.

[mangler]

I strongly agree, I can think of one perticular case of this which irritated me considerably. And as GunnerBlaster said, it seems insane that anyone in their right mind would continue to bash in the skull of a superior or friend after they are clearly incapable of defending themselves, inless some kind of RP planning the kill had gone on beforehand. And those excuses.. they are so transparent and feel so jarring.. when your trying to explain how some really well played and experienced character got munched in a run of the mill training session.

[alicedavignon]

Pretty sure no NORMAL PC other than a HG or a mul can two or three hit kill a PC with sparring weapons.
I think most sparring deaths happen by people getting too comfortable with letting their HP get too low.
(plus people stupid enough to spar HG and muls, which most clans have OOC rules against doing so)

Very hard hit on your head with a hammer + knockout + hit on unconscious body is very deadly. I can confirm that.

[RogueGunslinger]

Yeah, it' getting knocked out that rocks your face.

I had a dwarf with exceptional strength who constantly knocked out his opponents with a spear. Made me want to make him a club user.

[Synthesis]

Pretty sure no NORMAL PC other than a HG or a mul can two or three hit kill a PC with sparring weapons.
I think most sparring deaths happen by people getting too comfortable with letting their HP get too low.
(plus people stupid enough to spar HG and muls, which most clans have OOC rules against doing so)

Very hard hit on your head with a hammer + knockout + hit on unconscious body is very deadly. I can confirm that.

The problem is one of selection:  those who are most likely to knock you out in sparring are also those who are most likely to end your life with a second blow to a critical location.  Dwarves and humans can land extremely powerful blows even with sparring weapons, especially if you're unconscious.

[mangler]

Pretty sure no NORMAL PC other than a HG or a mul can two or three hit kill a PC with sparring weapons.
I think most sparring deaths happen by people getting too comfortable with letting their HP get too low.
(plus people stupid enough to spar HG and muls, which most clans have OOC rules against doing so)

Very hard hit on your head with a hammer + knockout + hit on unconscious body is very deadly. I can confirm that.

The problem is one of selection:  those who are most likely to knock you out in sparring are also those who are most likely to end your life with a second blow to a critical location.  Dwarves and humans can land extremely powerful blows even with sparring weapons, especially if you're unconscious.

Not only this, but also the blows from these extremely strong people that knocked you out in the first place tend to be very hard ones to the head/neck, dealing high HP losses, leaving your character on a perhaps lower level of HP than you might normally let it drop to, and it can be unpreventable if someone dual weilding lands a pair of brutal blugeons or whatever, making it even more likely the subsequent blows may end your character.

[Agent_137]

Many years ago, i was witness to this type of event. Trooper Henna killed Runner Raleth right before the eyes of his brother, Runner Rame (me.) Henna was a dwarf, using sparring clubs, with mercy ON. it was a one hit immediate kill through Raleth's helmet. He had over 80 health before the hit and was warrior class.

it produced some interesting RP for my char, who went on to be a sergeant, but no more interesting RP than had Raleth actually survived. I think deaths like that are ridiculous and not even realistic, much less a boon to playability.

However, if people are forgetting mercy on and killing people, well, an auto-mercy feature should be ok as long as it toggles it back when you leave. But how would it remember? I see big problems with silently turning on mercy every-time you enter the training area and leaving it on. However a notification to it was turned on would also be bad, constantly breaking the 4th wall.

• Instead of auto-mercy on, have training areas just check PCs an they enter for mercy status. If Off, they get a private and automatic  reminder: your mercy is off, and you may kill someone in the sparring ring. type Mercy On to enable mercy.. Everyone else with mercy on already gets no note.

PCs who spar past 80% health deserve to die in the ring. As does anyone sparring an HG. Muls & Dwarves should also only be sparred by very experienced PCs. This is just IC good sense.

[alicedavignon]

But how would it remember?

No big deal really. Mercy on to all characters, without echo, on entry, mercy off on exit to those, who had it off before. Or just do that "kill now" thing.

[Agent_137]

It's still far too intrusive for my tastes. Plus, coding it as a simple  . . .

Code Select Expand

If (mercy != On) {
Alert("turn on your mercy");
return false;
}
Else{
return true;
}
. . . would be much faster than coding in memory and toggling.

[Gagula]

even still, I haven't had any problems when I "with hold the finishing blow" other than my sheepish chuckling.  Actually, me and a friend were talking about how we'd mess with someone when we forgot, and RP it out.

[Gunnerblaster]

It's still far too intrusive for my tastes. Plus, coding it as a simple  . . .

Code Select Expand

If (mercy != On) {
Alert("turn on your mercy");
return false;
}
Else{
return true;
}
. . . would be much faster than coding in memory and toggling.

I dig this. If anyone actuallys -kills- someone in a sparring ring, then harsher punishments can be initiated since the player (not the PC) was OOC warned.

[Good Gortok]

I think sparring weapons should be a lot less deadly. They are currently only slightly worse than the lower quality weapons of the same type, and anyone with a high strength can easily inflict crippling blows with a padded sparring weapon. Not only is the realism questionable in that regard, but it also makes sparring really annoying. Since there's no way of deliberately toning down your effort in a fight other than equipping a weapon you're not skilled with or using it in our secondary hand, strong or high-skilled combatants frequently obliterate newer ones so fast that little is gained from the sparring match. If you get to swing your weapon once and then suffer two consecutive wounds to the head, the match is over and you got next to nothing out of it. Sometimes, if you're in a combat-oriented clan at a time when most of your clanmates are dwarves and/or long-lived warriors, this can become the norm. There's also the matter of roleplay, you don't have a very large window to do so when matches often last only a handful of rounds. Many players already dislike sparring because the atmosphere is always so bland, and this just adds to it. If possible, I would like to see sparring weapons all made 1d2 with half strength bonus.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I'm down with the idea, BUT!

A good leader can, no matter how skilled he is, make a fight last long enough for you to get some good learning out of it. If your boss is one hit killing you, don't spar with him. If you, the boss, are one hit killing your employees, get a clue.

For the record:

Disengage allows you to stop hitting your foe, while allowing them to hit, or try to hit, you.
Rp/Rs/Rtwo allows you to stop holding a weapon at any time you want to.
THERE IS NO DELAY ON THESE COMMANDS!

If you land 2 wounds or 1 horrendous or higher to your opponent, rp/rs INSTANTLY.
Then disengage, then flee if you like. Or, let them try to beat you up a bit.

Point is, good fighters can keep weak fighters alive in the sparring ring. If you kill another PC without meaning to for any reason other than network lag on your end, it's your fault. Even muls and HGs can follow these rules without killing anybody in 99% of cases. You may hit them hard, for a lot of HP, but in nearly every case, it's the dual-wield horrendous hits, or the knockout-unspeakable that KILL the weak fighter. THAT'S what you can prevent nearly every time.

NEVER SPAR PAST around 70% of your HP. You lose 25-30%, STOP, right there.

Now, again, for the record, I like the idea of having the alert. I also like the idea of having the alert for when you leave the sparring area.

[Good Gortok]

The problem is that you don't need to be that good of a fighter to mutilate people left and right in the sparring hall. It's as much a problem for the wreaker of havoc as it is for the victim. I remember last time I was in the Byn, a dwarf warrior joined, and within a RL week he was on the list of people not allowed to spar with runners because he was maiming them instantly just because of his strength. Lucky for him, the clan had two active sergeants and three or four troopers at the time. If that had not been the case, he would be a very bored dwarf. And this is not exclusive to dwarves, they just tend to be the source of the problem more frequently than others. I know it's somewhat off topic, but there has to be a better alternative than forcing one party of the sparring match to forego his training in order to let the other participate. Some of the clans only have two or three members.

[alicedavignon]

Now, again, for the record, I like the idea of having the alert. I also like the idea of having the alert for when you leave the sparring area.

To be honest, I don't like the idea of a warning. You know those warning Windows gives you about you being sure if you want to delete a file? The ones you get used to and click past them subconsciously.

While I wouldn't mind a warning (better than nothing), I am in favour off a hard mercy on or something similar.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

The problem is that you don't need to be that good of a fighter to mutilate people left and right in the sparring hall. It's as much a problem for the wreaker of havoc as it is for the victim. I remember last time I was in the Byn, a dwarf warrior joined, and within a RL week he was on the list of people not allowed to spar with runners because he was maiming them instantly just because of his strength. Lucky for him, the clan had two active sergeants and three or four troopers at the time. If that had not been the case, he would be a very bored dwarf. And this is not exclusive to dwarves, they just tend to be the source of the problem more frequently than others. I know it's somewhat off topic, but there has to be a better alternative than forcing one party of the sparring match to forego his training in order to let the other participate. Some of the clans only have two or three members.

There is. Follow my rules. The situation will then be dealt with.

However, I understand what you're saying. But skill has nothing to do with having 'rp' ready in the input area, wating to be entered.

[Fathi]

Like 7DV, I've always followed the practice of immediately dropping my weapons after a particularly powerful hit KOs a sparring opponent. Especially if I'm playing a PC that I know could possibly end the fellow's life with one more strong hit. Like many others, I have had post-KO hits go through even with mercy on, which sucks.

However, I wouldn't be against a hard-coded solution because, while 7DV's strategy works just fine, it requires very quick fingers to pull off and it seems like an unnecessary pain in the ass when dealing with a situation that, unless a sparring 'accident' is trying to be faked, probably should not happen.

My reasoning on the subject is this: in the case of a skilled fighter versus an unskilled fighter, wouldn't it make sense that the skilled fighter is more aware of their presence, more aware of the strength behind their blows, more adept at striking non-vital locations, and more capable of pulling their punches so as to still deliver a real "combat" type experience in training without accidentally mauling someone to death?

I'm aware this wouldn't apply to fighters that are just insanely strong, not necessarily more skilled, but what I'd like to see would be some sort of 'training' flag you could add to yourself that would significantly handicap your character's offensive abilities without hindering their defense.

Of course, while you toggle this flag on, you are more prone to fail your offensive skills and thus won't skill up from the failures.

It's a very rough idea, but I like it more than adding a reminder to turn on mercy, simply because I've witnessed so many incidents where mercy has straight up failed to work. It makes no sense that two skilled fighters not attempting to disable each other still often manage to.

I know combat is unpredictable and should carry an element of risk, but I hate what a moron I always feel like when my strong, skilled PCs who are supposedly nearing levels of combat mastery always seem to trip and accidentally plunge their sparring daggers into their buddies' jugulars.

[Morrolan]

The Low Tech solution:

If you would like to see a feature like this, but don't want to wait for staff to implement, then set a trigger for a bit of text in your favorite sparring room that does one of the following:
>mercy stat
or
>mercy on

Find a little piece of text on your way out of the sparring room, and use that to flag it back off, if you like.

(This, of course, will not save you from someone else!)

Morrolan

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I think sparring weapons should be a lot less deadly. They are currently only slightly worse than the lower quality weapons of the same type, and anyone with a high strength can easily inflict crippling blows with a padded sparring weapon.

I also agree with this, for the record.

[alicedavignon]

The Low Tech solution:

If you would like to see a feature like this, but don't want to wait for staff to implement, then set a trigger for a bit of text in your favorite sparring room that does one of the following:
>mercy stat
or
>mercy on

Find a little piece of text on your way out of the sparring room, and use that to flag it back off, if you like.

(This, of course, will not save you from someone else!)

Morrolan

What I tend to do is keep mercy on all the time. I'd rather leave a nearly dead gortok alive for the next few moments than accidentally kill someone in the ring. But as you've said, it won't save -me- in the ring and is an mediocre solution at best.

[Good Gortok]

There is. Follow my rules. The situation will then be dealt with.

But that's what I mean by foregoing your own training. If your strength is so high that this alone grants you an average hit of "very hard" with a training axe, and you frequently have to drop your weapon or disengage after seconds of sparring in order to not massacre your opponent, you're sacrificing your own training. Likewise, the problem is the same if you need to use training daggers because you hit too hard with other weapon types. It's very easy for a clan to end up with a period of time where few members can train with eachother and get much out of it. This is understandable if you're the 50 day warrior sergeant, but the problem occurs when very "young" characters who happened to roll EG/EX strength need to do the same.


Noone likes these comparisons, but another RPI has sparring weapons that deal very little damage. You can often pummel eachother for five minutes straight without losing more than a third if your life force. While this may not be extremely realistic either, it does allow for extensive roleplay and offers ample opportunity to show off your fighting style, or to demonstrate techniques for training. Armageddon does not, and "training sessions" often amount to the sergeant waving his sword vaguely and remining the recruits which end to hold it followed by a round of coded teach.

If this seems like it might become too "twinkish" with people sparring for so long and potentially gaining too much coded advancement, I would like to point out that our current alternative is even worse. As it stands, the most effective way of becoming a skilled combatant is to either shank people in lawless areas where you can "train" until you're satisfied that you've become better, or to look for the animal with the highest agility and the weakest bite to teach you how to become a mighty warrior or hunter. For anyone willing to do such things, (and there's quite a lot who are) systematic training with professional teachers is actually one of the least effective ways of learning, because you might only get something out of it every other time, and you can't train whenever you like.


Okay, that was too far off topic.

[SMuz]

Disengage has a delay to typing I've accidentally knocked out people twice because of the delay between deleting an emote I'm typing up, to type disengage.

And even with the 70% rule (I use 66% because I'm stubborn), I've seen a lot of near kills, and even one actual sparring death. It's not unlikely, happens all the time to elves and breeds. My personal rule has been to fight a low endurance char unarmed, or using only a shield.

Lol, why are people supporting mercy on rooms now, but didn't when I suggested it? Yeah, I don't like the mercy on room idea anymore because it makes intentional sparring accidents harder.