Anatomy of an elf

[Agent_137]

Are you trying to inject science into a fantasy world, with magick?

a world must be logical and believable, even if its within its own unique set of rules that are outside our own real set. time and time again, you cannot just piss away the need for believability just because we have magick.

[UnderSeven]

I have a problem with anyone depicting elves as just a tall human.  Elves should look pretty freakish by human standards, they should NOT BE ANYTHING REMOTELY ATTRACTIVE (by human standards). 

Sorry, while elves look very different from humans (from the perspective of both races), they're not nearly alien as you would have us believe.  Humans and elves have sexually viable offspring, you know what that means?  Biologically they're the same species.

I'm not convinced.  I didn't in anywhere state contrary to your arguement.  I said they should look pretty freakish and be unattracative.  If you consider the variation between humans within the real world that small mutations can bring about than I would argue that the same species could produce some pretty freakish offspring.  That is assuming I buy your same species arguement, which I don't.


spe⋅cies   /ˈspiʃiz, -siz/  Show Spelled Pronunciation [spee-sheez, -seez]  Show IPA noun, plural -cies, adjective
–noun 1. a class of individuals having some common characteristics or qualities; distinct sort or kind.
2. Biology. the major subdivision of a genus or subgenus, regarded as the basic category of biological classification, composed of related individuals that resemble one another, are able to breed among themselves, but are not able to breed with members of another species.

hy⋅brid   /ˈhaɪbrɪd/  Show Spelled Pronunciation [hahy-brid]  Show IPA
–noun 1. the offspring of two animals or plants of different breeds, varieties, species, or genera


I point to the defintion of hybrid.  It is possible to have a hybrid of two different species but the same genus.  Weither or not elves and humans are the same species or not hasn't been scientifically proven yet, feel free to be the first to discover the truth.

[Ampere]

I have a problem with anyone depicting elves as just a tall human.  Elves should look pretty freakish by human standards, they should NOT BE ANYTHING REMOTELY ATTRACTIVE (by human standards). 

Sorry, while elves look very different from humans (from the perspective of both races), they're not nearly alien as you would have us believe.  Humans and elves have sexually viable offspring, you know what that means?  Biologically they're the same species.

I'm not convinced.  I didn't in anywhere state contrary to your arguement.  I said they should look pretty freakish and be unattracative.  If you consider the variation between humans within the real world that small mutations can bring about than I would argue that the same species could produce some pretty freakish offspring.  That is assuming I buy your same species arguement, which I don't.


spe⋅cies   /ˈspiʃiz, -siz/  Show Spelled Pronunciation [spee-sheez, -seez]  Show IPA noun, plural -cies, adjective
–noun 1. a class of individuals having some common characteristics or qualities; distinct sort or kind.
2. Biology. the major subdivision of a genus or subgenus, regarded as the basic category of biological classification, composed of related individuals that resemble one another, are able to breed among themselves, but are not able to breed with members of another species.

hy⋅brid   /ˈhaɪbrɪd/  Show Spelled Pronunciation [hahy-brid]  Show IPA
–noun 1. the offspring of two animals or plants of different breeds, varieties, species, or genera


I point to the defintion of hybrid.  It is possible to have a hybrid of two different species but the same genus.  Weither or not elves and humans are the same species or not hasn't been scientifically proven yet, feel free to be the first to discover the truth.

Really?...I mean REALLY?  You want a proof? Humans and elves produce sexually viable offspring, and do it ALL THE TIME.

I've quoted a wiki article as is the tradition of all scienticians.

It is surprisingly difficult to define the word "species" in a way that applies to all naturally occurring organisms, and the debate among biologists about how to define "species" and how to identify actual species is called the species problem.

Most textbooks follow Ernst Mayr's definition of a species as "groups of actually or potentially interbreeding natural populations, which are reproductively isolated from other such groups".[5]

Various parts of this definition serve to exclude some unusual or artificial matings:

    * Those which occur only in captivity (when the animal's normal mating partners may not be available) or as a result of deliberate human action.
    * Animals which may be physically and physiologically capable of mating but do not normally do so in the wild, for various reasons.
    * Animals whose offspring are normally sterile.

[Ocotillo]

So we are supposed to assume then that all half-elves come from rape?

[SMuz]

Because elves are so ugly to humans that a human would never willingly do it with one. Unless he was desperate.

[Is Friday]

Not buying it.

[UnderSeven]

I'm not arguing that all half elves are the result of rape, but seven + feet tall and skinny as a twig alone is pretty freakish.  As to the definition given of species I will argue that any elf/human inter breeding is a direct result of human interference and that if a former evolution of elf and human, a stupider version, had been around each other and breeding than there might well not be two seperate races.  Though honestly I think bringing biology into this as an arguement is reading far to much into this in the first place. 

Further on the where half elves come from.  I would say a vast portion of them probably come from other half elves.

[Moofassa]

To be honest, I don't care, because to me it's a game. Whenever I'm confused about something, I tell myself, this is a fantasy game, go fuck yourself Moofassa, and stop caring.


Then I play, and smile, and die. and smile.

[spawnloser]

No hybrid in the real world is sexually viable, as in all hybrids created of two species are sterile.  In the game, a mul would be a hybrid of two species, but since a half-elf is able to procreate, it is not a hybrid and it would mean that (on a purely scientific basis from the real world) elves and humans are two sub-species of the same species.

[NoteworthyFellow]

No hybrid in the real world is sexually viable, as in all hybrids created of two species are sterile.  In the game, a mul would be a hybrid of two species, but since a half-elf is able to procreate, it is not a hybrid and it would mean that (on a purely scientific basis from the real world) elves and humans are two sub-species of the same species.

Beautiful irony, isn't it?

[Yam]

No hybrid in the real world is sexually viable, as in all hybrids created of two species are sterile.  In the game, a mul would be a hybrid of two species, but since a half-elf is able to procreate, it is not a hybrid and it would mean that (on a purely scientific basis from the real world) elves and humans are two sub-species of the same species.

This is incorrect. Some interspecies hybrids are often sterile, but by no means is it an absolute. Most hybrids between domestic dogs and wolves/coyotes are also fertile.

[Jingo]

I think Xygax made a post a few years back saying that Elves and Humans arn't normally attracted to each other at all. I figure that's fair as a general rule. Half-elves generally result from rape, desperation and alcohol.

At the same time I think that a character is allowed to have one of those bizarre fetishes for another race. Though, this would be considered rather deviant. Everyone knows that Templar Hardnose has a thing for those krath-haired runners.

[alicedavignon]

I think Xygax made a post a few years back saying that Elves and Humans arn't normally attracted to each other at all. I figure that's fair as a general rule. Half-elves generally result from rape, desperation and alcohol.

At the same time I think that a character is allowed to have one of those bizarre fetishes for another race. Though, this would be considered rather deviant. Everyone knows that Templar Hardnose has a thing for those krath-haired runners.

I think that a struggle of classes would be a better explanation as to why the entire Known World doesn't consist entirely of half-elves. RL example? Colonisation. In Zal elves are regarded as lower species and a race of thieves, pretty much in the same way as western colonists considered African/American/etc natives to be brutish primates. Even many years decades later, it would still be uncommon for the members of two races to have a romantic relationship and have children (it certainly wouldn't be all right for a white guy to have a black wife in 1960 USA). Zal is yet another step more primitive where you have the class system of the nobles, the rich, the commoners and the lesser non-humans. A human female being together with an elf would have been a social equivalent of a medieval princess marrying a hunter. This, however, doesn't mean that the princess can't find the hunter handsome or visa versa.

As for elves being absolutely weak, yet extremely good runners, I can't think of any animal that would suit this description. I'm pretty sure that those tribesmen (in the video above) are pretty damn strong. I, for one, just ignore it and accept it as a game balancing issue. A two metre tall humanoid would have to posses a good deal of strength just to support the bulk of his own bones during his five hour long run.

[Ourla]

I'm not arguing that all half elves are the result of rape, but seven + feet tall and skinny as a twig alone is pretty freakish.

Don't forget that elves make up the second-most populous race on Zalanthas.  Humans wouldn't really think of them as "freakish," having grown up looking at them every day. 

[Bushranger]

Humans do date elves. PROOF!

[titansfan]

HAHA! That made my day....

[Fathi]

As for elves being absolutely weak, yet extremely good runners, I can't think of any animal that would suit this description.

Not 'absolutely weak,' but fairly skinny and possessing proportions that some might call awkward... yet also known for their running prowess. Granted, cheetahs are sprinters rather than endurance runners, but no real world example is gonna be perfect.

[Angela Christine]

Elves and humans weigh about the same (both races top out at 9 tenstone) but elves are about a foot taller.  Zalanthan humans are already pretty lean compared to even "fit" Americans, and elves are even leaner.  So basically we're talking runway models -- those walking coathangers are pretty freaky looking in person.  Since being "skinny" is not considered attractive in cultures were food is chronically scarce, so the very lean physique of elves is not considered attractive to humans in Zalanthas.

Maybe they look like this:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Southafrica468bushman.jpg


They could look as alien as you want.   Pomerainians  and great danes are the same species, but they don't look much alike.

[Taven]

No hybrid in the real world is sexually viable, as in all hybrids created of two species are sterile.  In the game, a mul would be a hybrid of two species, but since a half-elf is able to procreate, it is not a hybrid and it would mean that (on a purely scientific basis from the real world) elves and humans are two sub-species of the same species.

This is incorrect. Some interspecies hybrids are often sterile, but by no means is it an absolute. Most hybrids between domestic dogs and wolves/coyotes are also fertile.

Actually, there's dispute in the scientific community concerning dogs and wolves. Many would argue that they ARE the same species, for exactly that reason.

It would seem to me that TECHNIQUALLY elves and humans ARE the same species, although if you posed that idea ICly you'd likely be brutally murdered or disappeared by either group. I would argue that while physically different, elves and humans CAN produce fertile offspring, and so are one species. Think about dogs a moment. A poodle, a chiwawa and a grey hound look VERY different-- But ALL are considered to be the same species. They're different breeds of the same species, but they're all dogs.

I would have to agree that this debate is mostly an OOC concern, since any sane Zalanthian would rather have crotch rot, pustulating boils, and forced to endure the past-times of the opposit city state before even considering that they (and not just them, all humans or elves) are related.

[Jingo]

Maybe they look like this:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Southafrica468bushman.jpg

What? What the hell was that? I wasn't scarred for life.

Edit: Why do I fail at posting?

[Angela Christine]

What? What the hell was that? I wasn't scarred for life.

Have you been lulled into a false sense of security yet? 

[rishenko]

  (with a longer face)

+

(but with a more slender and less-muscular build)

[SMuz]

Hmm.. I think they're like ostriches. But without the powerful kicking.

[FantasyWriter]

Except for the face, of course.

[Synthesis]

Hmm.. I think they're like ostriches. But without the powerful kicking.

I've been kicked for 25 hp by an elf before....There goes that theory.