Re: I'd Like To Encourage-DERAIL

[RogueGunslinger]

Less trigger-happy encounters between players. Too many times already have I seen players do the "enter room;look man;kill man" or "man enters room;cast spell man" or "man enters room;spamwalk away" schtick.

On that note, if you meet someone unknown in the wilderness, it's great manners to do like so from an adjacent square:
> shout Halloo th' camp.  A'right to ride on up?
You hear a female voice from the south shout, in sirihish:
  "Nice an' slow-- c'mon in."

Bad a bad way to begin a raid, of course, too.

This here is what I usually do.

[Clearsighted]

Less trigger-happy encounters between players. Too many times already have I seen players do the "enter room;look man;kill man" or "man enters room;cast spell man" or "man enters room;spamwalk away" schtick.

Sadly, this seems a product of natural selection more than anything else. I would suggest that most players out there, start out trying to RP it more, but they are either dead or unsuccessful. I remember riding in on someone who was resting, who had gotten up and fled before I could even finish emoting tipping my hat. And I hadn't even been hunting them. Once this happens to you the first dozen or so times you are actually after them for a good IC reason and lives do hang in the balance...well...You learn to do what it takes to serve the greater good, and just keep an eye out for situations where you can make up for it.

[brytta.leofa]

Yeh ... it's not a crime to get discovered, when you don't know yourself. It's a crime to know what you are and not do anything about it.

> talk (tentatively) Dad?  I got this problem.
> talk (uneasily) I mean, I know how we Borsails feel about 'gickers...

[RogueGunslinger]

I've said it many times before, but...

I'd like to encourage people to play their Allanaki mages for a while before getting gemmed.  Like for a month or two.  Develop the character's personality.  Make friends and lovers, then traumatize them horribly when you show up one day wearing a gem.

The time I did that myself is still one of my top 5 favorite Armageddon events, rivaling HRPTs.

I had a log of one of the coolest experiences I've had, where one of my finger wigglers were forced to get the gem.

But my HD failed.

[deviant storm]

I've said it many times before, but...

I'd like to encourage people to play their Allanaki mages for a while before getting gemmed.  Like for a month or two.  Develop the character's personality.  Make friends and lovers, then traumatize them horribly when you show up one day wearing a gem.

The time I did that myself is still one of my top 5 favorite Armageddon events, rivaling HRPTs.

This doesn't work when people go out of their way to guildsniff and/or find you out.

[PerpetualPatriot]

I've said it many times before, but...

I'd like to encourage people to play their Allanaki mages for a while before getting gemmed.  Like for a month or two.  Develop the character's personality.  Make friends and lovers, then traumatize them horribly when you show up one day wearing a gem.

The time I did that myself is still one of my top 5 favorite Armageddon events, rivaling HRPTs.

This doesn't work when people go out of their way to guildsniff and/or find you out.

I had some Salarri Agent do that to me once in-game, OOCly I was very irritated he was doing this though I found it comical giving him rediculous answers to his questions that eventually showed I wasn't going to reveal the guild/subguild combo of the character. I can only hope he was more frustrated at the fact he wasn't able to use his piddly attempt in finding out the information on my character.

[Synthesis]

I've said it many times before, but...

I'd like to encourage people to play their Allanaki mages for a while before getting gemmed.  Like for a month or two.  Develop the character's personality.  Make friends and lovers, then traumatize them horribly when you show up one day wearing a gem.

The time I did that myself is still one of my top 5 favorite Armageddon events, rivaling HRPTs.

This doesn't work when people go out of their way to guildsniff and/or find you out.

I had some Salarri Agent do that to me once in-game, OOCly I was very irritated he was doing this though I found it comical giving him rediculous answers to his questions that eventually showed I wasn't going to reveal the guild/subguild combo of the character. I can only hope he was more frustrated at the fact he wasn't able to use his piddly attempt in finding out the information on my character.

Yes, because god forbid that an agent of a Greater Merchant House find out whether you are worth paying hundreds of 'sid a month in pay, water, food, and lodging.

You're lucky.  If I was playing a GMH family member, and I hired someone to be a hunter, and they turned out to be completely useless at it, despite having claimed otherwise, I'd tie them up and let my real hunters use them for target practice.

[PerpetualPatriot]

I've said it many times before, but...

I'd like to encourage people to play their Allanaki mages for a while before getting gemmed.  Like for a month or two.  Develop the character's personality.  Make friends and lovers, then traumatize them horribly when you show up one day wearing a gem.

The time I did that myself is still one of my top 5 favorite Armageddon events, rivaling HRPTs.

This doesn't work when people go out of their way to guildsniff and/or find you out.

I had some Salarri Agent do that to me once in-game, OOCly I was very irritated he was doing this though I found it comical giving him rediculous answers to his questions that eventually showed I wasn't going to reveal the guild/subguild combo of the character. I can only hope he was more frustrated at the fact he wasn't able to use his piddly attempt in finding out the information on my character.

Yes, because god forbid that an agent of a Greater Merchant House find out whether you are worth paying hundreds of 'sid a month in pay, water, food, and lodging.

You're lucky.  If I was playing a GMH family member, and I hired someone to be a hunter, and they turned out to be completely useless at it, despite having claimed otherwise, I'd tie them up and let my real hunters use them for target practice.

Yet again you make more assumptions that you can account for, little one. Luck had nothing to do with any of it as it was very well planned out and executed with ease.   

[RogueGunslinger]

I'd like to encourage people to play classes that discourage the -need- for guild sniffing.

So that, if you are looking for work as a hunter, you actually HAVE hunter-ish skills, instead of being a secret magicker who has archer as a sub-guild.

Or if you are looking for work in a GMH and know, in advance, that the boss is hoping to groom someone to learn several crafts, that you actually pick the merchant class, or at -least- pick a class that branches one kind of craft, and pick a different craft for a subguild.

Y'know. So that people who actually -need- their employees to be capable of doing specific things, won't have to pull teeth to find out if you can do those specific things or not.

Yeah. Please, PLEASE start playing characters for the class and subguild they are. Because that's the best way to represent a role playing intensive environment. Everyone knows that people are bred with certain skills, and they can't learn any others no matter how much work they put into it.

[Vessol]

I'd like to encourage people to play classes that discourage the -need- for guild sniffing.

So that, if you are looking for work as a hunter, you actually HAVE hunter-ish skills, instead of being a secret magicker who has archer as a sub-guild.

Or if you are looking for work in a GMH and know, in advance, that the boss is hoping to groom someone to learn several crafts, that you actually pick the merchant class, or at -least- pick a class that branches one kind of craft, and pick a different craft for a subguild.

Y'know. So that people who actually -need- their employees to be capable of doing specific things, won't have to pull teeth to find out if you can do those specific things or not.

Yeah. Please, PLEASE start playing characters for the class and subguild they are. Because that's the best way to represent a role playing intensive environment. Everyone knows that people are bred with certain skills, and they can't learn any others no matter how much work they put into it.

Seriously. One of the biggest drawbacks of the class system is how rigid and unopen it is. But I regress.

[SMuz]

I'd like to encourage people to play classes that discourage the -need- for guild sniffing.

So that, if you are looking for work as a hunter, you actually HAVE hunter-ish skills, instead of being a secret magicker who has archer as a sub-guild.

Or if you are looking for work in a GMH and know, in advance, that the boss is hoping to groom someone to learn several crafts, that you actually pick the merchant class, or at -least- pick a class that branches one kind of craft, and pick a different craft for a subguild.

Y'know. So that people who actually -need- their employees to be capable of doing specific things, won't have to pull teeth to find out if you can do those specific things or not.

Yeah. Please, PLEASE start playing characters for the class and subguild they are. Because that's the best way to represent a role playing intensive environment. Everyone knows that people are bred with certain skills, and they can't learn any others no matter how much work they put into it.

Seriously. One of the biggest drawbacks of the class system is how rigid and unopen it is. But I regress.

Nothing wrong with the class system. It works well, especially for a caste-like system that Zalanthas has. IMO, biggest problem is that certain guild/subguilds don't have the skills you'd expect, and it gets very annoying finding out after you already choose it. So, in that sense, I'd encourage people to read between the lines of the documentation before choosing a guild

[Lizzie]

I guess that twisting ideas out of context and using strawman arguements is the latest trend. I'll explain for the "logically challenged":

If I was looking for a guard, I probably wouldn't need a tracker. If I was looking for an assassin, I probably wouldn't need someone who could rescue me from assassins. If I was looking for a crafter, I wouldn't really care if they can handle a blade or not. If I'm looking for someone who can make cure tablets, then I don't give a shit if they're an evil defiler. I just want to know that they can make cure tablets. If they can't, then move along and let me get on with my search. If I'm looking for a tracker, then I'm not -too- concerned with how well they can play darts, or if they know the latest songs in the tavern. I'm looking for a tracker. If that means I'm looking for a ranger-skillset, then sure, that's what I'm looking for.

The game DOES have coded skills. There's no shame in an employer needing employees to make use of those coded skills, and there's no shame in an employer asking people if they're capable of utilizing those coded skills. Unfortunately it is awkward as hell asking about it ICly, ESPECIALLY because the so-called "anti-guilt-sniff league" gets SUCH a kick out of giving people a hard time when they are simply trying to match up available jobs with the people who are capable of filling them.

So my opinion stands: It would be great if people who want to be hired as hunters, actually have some of the coded hunting skills.  Instead of having an entire crew of assassin/warrior/burglars, NONE of which are codedly capable of leading a crew in a storm anywhere...it'd just be really nice if once in a blue moon, a ranger would seek out a job as a..<gasp> ranger.

[deviant storm]

This isn't about people applying for a job that they may or may not be icly qualified for.

This is about people just guildsniffing for its own sake. It's very hard to make a magicker-in-secret, because everyone has to know who that guy down the bar is and what sort of guild he's got. No one takes a character at face value as they might if the game were played just that little bit more like real life. That's not Joe, who might be a secret 'gicker, he's Joe, who gathers crap for a living and seems to have an opinion on everything, down at the local tavern.

That would lead to a good deal more fun reactions should Joe show up with a gem one day.

[RogueGunslinger]

I guess that twisting ideas out of context and using strawman arguements is the latest trend. I'll explain for the "logically challenged":

Oh, thank you for the flames, I really enjoy being flamed.   If I had as much tact and skill at flaming as you as you I wouldn't get banned for outright calling you a nearsighted twit.

The game DOES have coded skills. There's no shame in an employer needing employees to make use of those coded skills, and there's no shame in an employer asking people if they're capable of utilizing those coded skills. Unfortunately it is awkward as hell asking about it ICly, ESPECIALLY because the so-called "anti-guilt-sniff league" gets SUCH a kick out of giving people a hard time when they are simply trying to match up available jobs with the people who are capable of filling them.

I don't disagree with this at all. Just don't judge players for having their character try and fit the role that their character would naturally fit into. You should react to such thing's IC'ly, instead of spewing mindless antagonisms about how you feel the way others should play because they choose a certain class. I have no problem with the higher-ups of guilds thoroughly investigating their employees skills. I do, however, have a problem with a player judging the character based on their skills and how a player portrays their own character.

So my opinion stands: It would be great if people who want to be hired as hunters, actually have some of the coded hunting skills.  Instead of having an entire crew of assassin/warrior/burglars, NONE of which are codedly capable of leading a crew in a storm anywhere...it'd just be really nice if once in a blue moon, a ranger would seek out a job as a..<gasp> ranger.

This is bullshit, you want us to play our classes how they best suit you? It doesn't matter what the character class is at all, it only matters what that character portrays himself as.


Edit: Took a lot of trys to actually get my message somewhat coherent here.

[Malken]

This thread is now about recipes involving pineapples in them.

[RogueGunslinger]

Pineapple upside down cake = Win.

[Jdr]

Pineapple on pizza is a travesty. Why is there randomly fruit on my pizza covered with pig and red sauce? It makes ZERO sense to my tastebuds.

[RogueGunslinger]

Pineapple on pizza is a travesty. Why is there randomly fruit on my pizza covered with pig and red sauce? It makes ZERO sense to my tastebuds.

I seriously thought I was the only one out there. I -hate- pineapple on my pizza.

[rishenko]

Pineapple on pizza is a travesty. Why is there randomly fruit on my pizza covered with pig and red sauce? It makes ZERO sense to my tastebuds.

I seriously thought I was the only one out there. I -hate- pineapple on my pizza.

Wait, what?

Fuck you.  Fuck you and die.

Hawaiian ftw, bitches.

[Jingo]

Pineapple on pizza is a travesty. Why is there randomly fruit on my pizza covered with pig and red sauce? It makes ZERO sense to my tastebuds.

I seriously thought I was the only one out there. I -hate- pineapple on my pizza.

Wait, what?

Fuck you.  Fuck you and die.

Hawaiian ftw, bitches.

Yes. Enjoy your "pig-anus" pepperoni pizza.

I'll enjoy my ham and pineapple. 

[deviant storm]

I'd like to encourage all those people who took my point, which was a comment on Moe's point about trying to play a 'hidden' magicker, to chill. It seems like you all missed the point. But since no one seems interested in my point I'm just going to shut up now and stop posting on this subject. Or maybe just take a vacation from the GDB.

Cause I really don't care how people play, whether they play according to their skillset or not. Long as they play with me, it's all good.

[Lizzie]

This isn't about people applying for a job that they may or may not be icly qualified for.

This is about people just guildsniffing for its own sake. It's very hard to make a magicker-in-secret, because everyone has to know who that guy down the bar is and what sort of guild he's got. No one takes a character at face value as they might if the game were played just that little bit more like real life. That's not Joe, who might be a secret 'gicker, he's Joe, who gathers crap for a living and seems to have an opinion on everything, down at the local tavern.

That would lead to a good deal more fun reactions should Joe show up with a gem one day.

I agree that sucks DS, people who guild sniff for its own sake should be encouraged to try something else. I was offering my 2 sids on what *I* would like to encourage, and it happened to be somewhat related to guild sniffing, but from the other side of the coin, where an employer is looking for specific things to be accomplished, and needs people with specific skills to accomplish them. So when someone is intentionally vague, to the point where it's OBVIOUS that they're hiding something - then they shouldn't be surprised if they get passed by for a job.

"So Potential Guy, I'm looking for hunters. How do you think you can fit in with this?"

"Well Mister Employer, I can do a lot of things."

"Such as what?"

"Uh, y'know, things. That I can do."

"Can you find your way around in storms, which I'd need if I was to use you as a guide?"

"Uh..no."

"Can you ride?"

"Uh - well I could learn."

"Can you shoot a bow?"

"Not really."

"Can you track marks to help catch your prey or avoid being caught by a predator?"

"Nope."

"Well what CAN you do?"

"Stuff."

NEXT

[Marauder Moe]

Lizzie, most of the time when people say "guild sniffing" they mean something a little different from your example.

Guild sniffing as a negative generally means this:

"So Potential Guy, I'm looking for employees. How do you think you can fit in with this?"

"Well Mister Employer, I can do a lot of things."

"Such as what?"

"Uh, y'know, things. That I can do."

"Can you find your way around in storms, which I'd need if I was to use you as a guide?"

"Uh..no."

"Can you ride?"

"Uh - well I could learn."

"Can you sew clothing?"

"Not really."

"Can you beat people up with a sword?"

"Nope."

"Well what CAN you do?"

"Stuff."

>contact hard nosed templar

>psi Hey, I've got this guy here and he doesn't seem to be able to do anything.  I think he's a thief or an assassin or maybe a magicker.  For the good of the city, you should probably interrogate him a bit.


That is the guild sniffing people are opposed to.  The kind where a lack of demonstrated or professed coded skill leads to an assumption of malicious disposition.  Not guild sniffing in the sense of trying to figure out if someone is or can be a hunter, crafter, etc.

[Lizzie]

To Moe: OH! I totally misunderstood the meaning of it then. Or more likely - I think my concern, was that when people see -me- doing that - attempting to find out if the *character* has what it takes for the IC job I'm offering..that they're assuming I'm guild sniffing.

I worry about that. It's stressful, to think that some people might assume that's what I'm doing, when in fact, I just want to find out if the guy who is trying to get hired as a crafter, isn't really someone who can not only pick locks, but would probably pick the lock to my apartment and rob me blind, and never actually MAKE anything other than a mess.

[SMuz]

I'd like to encourage more people who know their place in life.
Nobles are nobles and they are your betters.
Militia can kill you on a whim.
Templars eat your soul.

You should really just not catch their attention, and play with your caste.

Yes, seconded. I see people who go practically ignore a templar in a room and it kinda makes me wince OOC-ly. Then when I tell them to be polite around the templar and not spit or punch each other or something, the templar looks at me curiously. Back when I was a noob, I'd be scared to even spam walk past a Blue Robe without bowing first.

And then there's the militia who get teased and poked around. And the player who does try to push around the militia guy seems surprised when his character gets beaten up. He then pulls out a weapon to defend himself during a brawl with the militia guy and gets killed, obviously.

Am I missing something here?

[Synthesis]

If I was conducting a job interview, and all the interviewee would say about his abilities is "I can do stuff," I think I'd be well within my rights to be suspicious.

I mean, who goes into a Kadius interview and won't reveal anything about his background?  It's not your -right- to be hired by a GMH or a noble house.  You have to -prove- your worth on a continual basis, and if you can't even prove you're worth a shit during the interview...why are you looking for the job in the first place, you worthless scumbag?

If you picked a 'gicker guild with a subguild completely unrelated to the job you're attempting to get, you might want to think long and hard about how and whether you can successfully pull off the sort of deception required to get away with being utterly useless in any coded sense.

If I, in real life, fraudulently applied for a job as a computer programmer, I would be found out in less than a week, because I know squat about computer programming.  In real life, where things are nice and easy, I might get slapped with some sort of fraud charge (at the worst), but I'd probably just get fired.

Maybe I have higher expectations for brutality in Armageddon.  If I were playing a GMH boss-type, and some dude came in and wasted my time (and possibly my stock of hard-earned raw materials) by fraudulent enlistment, you can bet your ass you'd be seeing that dude's boots in the shop next week.  If I hire a guy to craft swords, and he never turns out a single blade, his ass is mine.  If I hire a guy to spring locks, and he ends up breaking five lockpicks and getting arrested, his ass is mine.  If I hire a guy to hunt duskhorn and I end up having to save his dumb ass every time we go out the gates, his ass is mine.

From my point of view, Zalanthans aren't the type to suffer incompetence.  If you're a useless turd, go fester in the 'rinth with the rest of the useless turds, or get to polishing up your story.

[Marauder Moe]

I just want to find out if the guy who is trying to get hired as a crafter, isn't really someone who can not only pick locks, but would probably pick the lock to my apartment and rob me blind, and never actually MAKE anything other than a mess.

That is bad guild sniffing, though.  Just because someone has the lockpick skill doesn't mean they're going to rob you.

[staggerlee]

You people are seriously killing my buzz.
The thread seems to have died in the face of all this.

[staggerlee]

What if I reworded things in an "I'd like to encourage people to..."?

I'd like to encourage people to not treat someone as a pickpocket/burglar/assassin only because you suspect they are coded guild_pickpocket/guild_burglar/guild_assassin.

I'd like to encourage you not to suck.

[Lizzie]

What Synthesis said. Perhaps I was speaking a foreign language. But what he said..is what I mean. Exactly. I just worded it differently.

[Ourla]

What if I reworded things in an "I'd like to encourage people to..."?

I'd like to encourage people to not treat someone as a pickpocket/burglar/assassin only because you suspect they are coded guild_pickpocket/guild_burglar/guild_assassin.

I'd like to encourage you not to suck.

Whoah.  Didn't expect to hear something like that coming from you, Staggerlee.  This thread is going to get locked if it keeps regressing.

On topic, I'd like to encourage female dwarves, female muls, and female HGs.

[staggerlee]

What if I reworded things in an "I'd like to encourage people to..."?

I'd like to encourage people to not treat someone as a pickpocket/burglar/assassin only because you suspect they are coded guild_pickpocket/guild_burglar/guild_assassin.

I'd like to encourage you not to suck.

Whoah.  Didn't expect to hear something like that coming from you, Staggerlee.  This thread is going to get locked if it keeps regressing.

On topic, I'd like to encourage female dwarves, female muls, and female HGs.

The tongue implied "totally joking." 

<--- that winky is a sly, you should know that wink.
And more females of other races would be awesome. My favorite half giant ever was a lady.

[Malken]

The problem is that you still all hire those incompetent people and then bitch about it AFTER the fact.

I was playing a burglar not too long ago, and there was this GMH veteran hunter ALWAYS in my mind
asking and almost begging me to work for his House, no matter how many times I'd tell him that I wasn't
so good with my weapons and that I had no idea how to hunt, the guy was always telling me that I had
potential and that he could train me to be the best hunter out there. Heck, even a merchant hired me
as her bodyguard for a little while, even after my character kept 'bragging' that he was the worst fighter
in the whole city.

Problem is that when you ask if "Can you guide me through a sandstorm?" is that you pinpoint exactly
if that person is a ranger class or not, no one else can do that, that's a in your face ARE YOU A RANGER Y/N
question.. It's the same as switching to Cavilish the second someone tells you that he's a trader of trinkets..

This is never going to please both sides, some of us just hate that you try to see if we're ranger classes or not
by that simple question, or if we are merchant classes or just a subguild crafter just by switching to cavilish.. It's
just annoying as hell when I'm being the target of it, just as I'm sure it's annoying to you as well if you plan
on that crafter being a Master Crafter in the end, but he's always just going to be a subguild.

This is the Arm system that I dislike so, I love the game, hate the system..

I would encourage the old veteran of Armageddon who just refuse to see any other systems for Armageddon
to go and play some other RPI muds to see just how awesome and beautiful a classless pick your skills from a list
system can be, and how there's no more or less twinkish behaviors than there are on Arm with it.

[Marauder Moe]

People without "useful" coded skills are far from useless, though.  They can be aides/assistants/messengers.  They can be merchants.  They can eventually be leaders.  Heck, I had a merchant in the Byn who was asked to stay even though he could barely kill a sickly gortok.

If you're looking to hire a crafter, then fine.  Ask if the person can craft or is willing to learn.  If they say no, then that's it.  No need to go digging into their past trying to figure out what coded guild they are so you can tell all your friends to be wary of them.  If they say yes but turns out they can't even use a pair of scissors, then fire them.  Even that doesn't mean they're thieves or magickers, though and that you need to get authorities involved.  It just means either they're overconfident or dishonest about crafting (or maybe even a newbie who thought any skill could be learned).

It's the distinction between these assumptions:

It appears that he can't codedly craft, therefor he can't be a crafter.

and

It appears that he can't craft, hunt, or fight, therefor he must be a thief, a murderer, or a magicker.

[staggerlee]

I would like to encourage people to let their characters make bad decisions.  Yes, there is often a price to pay, but... more often than not it leads to something fun, unexpected and often dramatic.  If it's IC, if it's not something utterly retarded - let it happen, let the chips fall where they may and enjoy the beautiful fallout that results.

This was kind of in my vein of WANTING people to steal from PCs, and for PCs to try and leave themselves open for being stolen from.

Apparently, people dislike the idea of the possibility of getting caught, because there are so many people out there who decide to just say "Okay, I'll just kill you to make myself feel better."

I could -seriously- use a thief in my pocket. Or, better, someone that CONSTANTLY makes bad decisions so that they can be punished and never learn. Fun for them? Possibly. Fun for other PCs involved? Immsenely.

Getting caught commiting crimes has led to some of the best rp situations I've ever been in. Other times I've just been ignored or kicked out for it. Never had dire consequences so far. *shrug*
Like getting hired for jobs you're not proficient at, I found it helps to act appropriately respectful, helpful, and demonstrate your rp ability.

If you steal and then spam walk away or refuse to tell your future boss what kind of job you could do... then yeah, there's a good chance their response will be in a similar vein.   

This game is fun. Have fun. Stop stressing so much.

[Synthesis]

People without "useful" coded skills are far from useless, though.  They can be aides/assistants/messengers.  They can be merchants.  They can eventually be leaders.  Heck, I had a merchant in the Byn who was asked to stay even though he could barely kill a sickly gortok.

If you're looking to hire a crafter, then fine.  Ask if the person can craft or is willing to learn.  If they say no, then that's it.  No need to go digging into their past trying to figure out what coded guild they are so you can tell all your friends to be wary of them.  If they say yes but turns out they can't even use a pair of scissors, then fire them.  Even that doesn't mean they're thieves or magickers, though and that you need to get authorities involved.  It just means either they're overconfident or dishonest about crafting (or maybe even a newbie who thought any skill could be learned).

It's the distinction between these assumptions:

It appears that he can't codedly craft, therefor he can't be a crafter.

and

It appears that he can't craft, hunt, or fight, therefor he must be a thief, a murderer, or a magicker.

I never said that non-coded abilities aren't useful.

I also never claimed anything about inferring guilds from lack of skills.  However, you can definitely infer that: if Amos can't hit the broad side of a mekillot with a bow, can't skin the mangy hide off a gortok, gets lost every time he ventures away from the North Road, and can't defend himself against a lame tregil, then Amos was probably lying when he said he was cut out to be a hunter.  If he can't do anything any normal hunter can do, Amos is not a hunter.

My point is this:  if you sign up for something you can't handle, prepare to suffer the IC consequences of not being able to handle it.  If you lie to me about your abilities and take pay, you are stealing, whether you are guild_pickpocket or not, and the theft will be dealt with.  Getting murdered for pretending to be a crafter can have zero to do with the fact you are a magicker, but have everything to do with the fact that you haven't crafted a damned thing, yet you've been sucking pay from the House for months.

[RogueGunslinger]

And you'd kill an employee if he was trying his hardest to make things, too?

I'd personally just fire them.

[Lizzie]

People without "useful" coded skills are far from useless, though.  They can be aides/assistants/messengers.  They can be merchants.  They can eventually be leaders.  Heck, I had a merchant in the Byn who was asked to stay even though he could barely kill a sickly gortok.

If you're looking to hire a crafter, then fine.  Ask if the person can craft or is willing to learn.  If they say no, then that's it.  No need to go digging into their past trying to figure out what coded guild they are so you can tell all your friends to be wary of them.  If they say yes but turns out they can't even use a pair of scissors, then fire them.  Even that doesn't mean they're thieves or magickers, though and that you need to get authorities involved.  It just means either they're overconfident or dishonest about crafting (or maybe even a newbie who thought any skill could be learned).

It's the distinction between these assumptions:

It appears that he can't codedly craft, therefor he can't be a crafter.

and

It appears that he can't craft, hunt, or fight, therefor he must be a thief, a murderer, or a magicker.

Totally agree, Moe. If I've ruled out that he's not a crafter, or he can't handle a weapon, OR if he is being too obviously vague for me to tell one way or another, then the interview is over. At that point, I don't give a shit what he is. Because what he isn't, is an employee. What other skills he has, might come in handy at some point in the future, and if he doesn't want to tell me what those other skills are, that's his prerogative. It's just those "I can do stuff" kinds of interviews that I feel are a waste of my time both ICly and OOCly, and I wish people would be more appreciative of that.

[Marauder Moe]

Fair enough, though I would still like to encourage you to see the value in "unskilled" (or "soft-skilled") employees.  A good aide really can be invaluable, as can good merchants (salespeople).

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Nobody'll deny the usefulness of certain classes in unclass-like positions. But sometimes I really want someone who can guard me. I want them to have the skill, guard. Because, uh, it makes my fatass merchant a little safer, if the guy has the skill, guard. It's not sniffing - it's checking the resume.

[RogueGunslinger]

This is exactly why I wished that we had a classless system, where you could learn any skill of your choosing.

God that would make this game 100000000000000000 times better.

[Malken]

This is exactly why I wished that we had a classless system, where you could learn any skill of your choosing.

God that would make this game 100000000000000000 times better.

This truth, it has now been quoted.

[Lou]

Does my PC know that he can never, ever, learn certain skills, even if he's smart and spends years studying?

[Dahomey]

Does my PC know that he can never, ever, learn certain skills, even if he's smart and spends years studying?

No. If he's willing to spend IG years studying a subject he isn't naturally good at, he should learn it. May never be as good as one naturally talented at it though.

[a strange shadow]

Does my PC know that he can never, ever, learn certain skills, even if he's smart and spends years studying?

No. If he's willing to spend IG years studying a subject he isn't naturally good at, he should learn it. May never be as good as one naturally talented at it though.

And this is all possible, through roleplay and the request tool.

[BlackMagic0]

Does my PC know that he can never, ever, learn certain skills, even if he's smart and spends years studying?

No. If he's willing to spend IG years studying a subject he isn't naturally good at, he should learn it. May never be as good as one naturally talented at it though.

And this is all possible, through roleplay and the request tool.

What she says.  Through a lot of roleplay, and a request to the staff they can look into adding the skill. Though we are talking a couple of IG years with many logs. Remember LOG a lot of the study/getting beat on.

[Lizzie]

Does my PC know that he can never, ever, learn certain skills, even if he's smart and spends years studying?

No. If he's willing to spend IG years studying a subject he isn't naturally good at, he should learn it. May never be as good as one naturally talented at it though.

And this is all possible, through roleplay and the request tool.

What she says.  Through a lot of roleplay, and a request to the staff they can look into adding the skill. Though we are talking a couple of IG years with many logs. Remember LOG a lot of the study/getting beat on.

For the new player, please note that's talking about "the" skill. As in, one. Sometimes, two. But it is -not- possible, that I'm aware of, for the average PC to start out as (for example) a warrior/thug, and through roleplay and request tool, end up with a warrior/thug with mindbender skills, 4 rukkian spells, and 6 crafts added to their skills list. I mean, codedly, I'm sure anything is possible. But I think you would agree there'd be no point in having skillsets at all, if all it took to get any skills we wanted and as many skills as we wanted, was to roleplay our attempts to learn them and submit logs through the request tool.

The point of skillsets is to pick one that will complement your character's life or expected attributes. It isn't to just pick something arbitrarily and expect that through RP and the request tool, you'll eventually get all kinds of other doodads and bells and whistles added on.

[RogueGunslinger]

From how I understand it, you'll be lucky to ever get more than one of any skill added through mucho logs, no matter how many ig years you practice... Which I don't exactly understand...

[SMuz]

I do get the guilds system, because it helps tremendously in game balance, otherwise people who pick skills solely to RP will be disadvantaged by the powergamers. And yeah, I think the skill request thing is just a little bit too strict, because if I ever do ask for a skill, it's for purely RP reasons. If someone taught me tracking, hide, or guard and it's capped at a very low level, the only purpose of having that skill is to say that for my years of IG training, I can pretend to not suck at it. It becomes a "yay, my rescue skill has an echo, but I'll never be able to rescue anyone".

Now that weaponcrafting subguild.. that is a fricking mess. I expect it to mean that my character would be adept at crafting certain weapons as his background and motives suggest, but then, I'd still have to submit several skill requests for a skill that doesn't seem to exist in any other subguild and then only get it at a low cap. That's just a huge downer.

So, yeah, basically you can't really learn a skill that's not in your guild.

[Malken]

I do get the guilds system, because it helps tremendously in game balance, otherwise people who pick skills solely to RP will be disadvantaged by the powergamers.

This is what people always come up with when someone mentions a classless system.. Aren't you the one who played SoI or Harshlands in the past? If so, then you know that it's
totally false and there aren't more twinkish behaviors there with a skill picking system than there is on Arm..

Actually, I find that there's a lot more twinkish behaviors on Arm than the other two mentioned muds (Because they have coded means to prevent it, like craft timers and such), but I still love Arm the best and that's why I stick to it.

[Sephiroto]

Armageddon has timers, but nothing (save lag) to prevent spam practicing skills, spam lumberjacking/crafting, or spam killing gortoks/n00bs.  You're on to something if you suggest we should limit this twinkish behavior, but how could we accomplish this?  I haven't played any of the other games Malken mentioned.

[Jdr]

We have admin who kick your butt if you do?

[Ashes]

We have admin who kick your butt if you do.

... And make you eat coded poop.  I haven't seen anything truly bad happen in a long time, and even then, it doesn't last long.  We have an excellent group on Staff.

[spawnloser]

The problem with the, "Can youz be rangre plz?" question of, "So, are you any good at finding your way through the weather?" isn't that it's a yes/no question, because it isn't.  Sure, the person asking it may intend the question to be, "Are you a ranger looking for love?  Circle yes or no," but there are ways and ways to find your way through a sandstorm for those that aren't rangers.  Be creative and then back up the claims your character makes in some way.

Asking questions that are basically asking what coded skills someone possesses isn't guild-sniffing... it's appropriate interviewing.  Respond in kind.  If your character doesn't have the skill 'skinning,' and you're asked if you're any good at cleaning a kill, either you'll LIE in character or you won't.  It's an IC response to an IC question, simple.  Trying to second-guess the other player is stupid.

The real problem is real guild-sniffing... when the other person is trying to find out what guild you are or what guild you are not so that they can abuse the information.  The classic way that this occurs is when people ask questions and keep getting negatives and then decide, "HE'Z MUSST BE SOOPIR SEKRIT MAGIKKY MAGICKER!"  This is crap.  I played a secret magicker that suddenly had half the other people I came across decide I must be a magicker because my character had a particular 'job' as an independent, a job that revolved around NOT using most coded skills that make certain jobs possible.  No crafting (besides cooking), weapon/combat or hunting skills.  THIS is the abuse: people, no matter how accurately, assuming the worst and REACTING that way IC when they have no IC information suggesting that their conclusion is true... meta-gaming, the player using their knowledge of the system to use the process of elimination to condemn and harass their fellow players.

Stop trying to trick your fellow players.  Stop trying to interrogate your fellow players.  Keep it IC.

[staggerlee]

As a leader, I class sniff new recruits, especially if they seem new to the game.
For their own enjoyment. Because nothing is frustrating like getting hired as a hunter when you're a merchant, and being bored out of your mind. As a leader I want to know what kind of coded goals they intend to pursue, so that I can facilitate that.

If the player seems fairly experienced I'll do a lot less class sniffing and expect them to adapt on their own. But new players need some hand holding.


We're all here to have fun. Don't assume all guild sniffing is ooc and done with the intention of getting you killed or that every hidden magicker has to be found. Don't assume everyone is out to get you.  As much as it's competetive sometimes, it's also in many ways a cooperative game, and we are here to have fun.

[Clearsighted]

As a leader, I class sniff new recruits, especially if they seem new to the game.
For their own enjoyment. Because nothing is frustrating like getting hired as a hunter when you're a merchant, and being bored out of your mind. As a leader I want to know what kind of coded goals they intend to pursue, so that I can facilitate that.

If the player seems fairly experienced I'll do a lot less class sniffing and expect them to adapt on their own. But new players need some hand holding.

This.

I don't so much care about getting their coded skills up, but new players definitely need a palpable direction, instead of just being thrown into the mix. I tended to help them with one or two outings, to give them a routine to later go through on their own.

[Vessol]

The class system is the #1 reason why playing long-lived characters is hard for me. It doesn't play into the social classes of the game world at all, otherwise why would nobles choose the same 'guilds' as any common would? To me it's outdated, encourages metagaming, and limits the players and staff. How I say the staff is the whole "Just roleplay doing your skill and send it to staff!": 1. Staff actually have to read through this repetitive shit constantly which leads to 2. OOC measures are enforced so you can't get so much gains in a certain time. 3. It wastes valuable staff time which could go to building, running plots, etc. Instead of micromanaging PC's.

And cue the game's cheerleaders telling me how wrong I am and how I clearly must be in the wrong part of the game and if only if I was more like them I'd see how wrong I am.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Class system fale.

Armageddon wyn.

Can't fight it. Lord knows I wish we didn't have classes, but oh well.

[BuNutzCola]

Requesting skills is not as far out of reach as it would seem, but there has to be strong evidence for your character to have earned it. Even still, you can't as a player just get a bug up your ass to want something and then work towards it necessarily, it ought to make sense.

I had a merchant character who lived a good year and a half, and managed to actually get half-decent with swords, archery, and a variety of other skills via the request tool/roleplay.

That character also killed more people, got involved in more awesome shit, fought in more crazy battles, and accomplished more with the only really developed skills being
-Listen
-Barrier
-Contact
-Moderate swordsmanship
-Ride

He was my funnest of all, and easily the most powerful character I've had, if not codedly all that strong.

-Shrug- The class system isn't perfect, but it's fairly fun sometimes. I'm pretty sure over the course of that character's life very very few people would have guessed he was actually guild -merchant-. It's all in how you represent.

[Majikal]

As a leader, I class sniff new recruits, especially if they seem new to the game.
For their own enjoyment. Because nothing is frustrating like getting hired as a hunter when you're a merchant, and being bored out of your mind. As a leader I want to know what kind of coded goals they intend to pursue, so that I can facilitate that.

If the player seems fairly experienced I'll do a lot less class sniffing and expect them to adapt on their own. But new players need some hand holding.


We're all here to have fun. Don't assume all guild sniffing is ooc and done with the intention of getting you killed or that every hidden magicker has to be found. Don't assume everyone is out to get you.  As much as it's competetive sometimes, it's also in many ways a cooperative game, and we are here to have fun.

Agreed.

As for the class system limitations, it could do well to be expanded on but currently there isn't a problem with it and with enough practice at anything you can eventually learn it. I've had gicker guilds get skinning/tanning and I've had a guild ranger attain bash/kick/disarm and I've had non crafter characters that ended up with weapon or armor crafting through RP. In no way does the staff truly limit you on anything you can accomplish if you go about it the right way.

[jhunter]

I like the class system because it enforces coded strengths and weaknesses and prevents a "min/max" sort of character construction that you usually get with classless systems.
Trying to get an idea of coded skills is fine if it's for the purpose of aiding new players with the game. It's not fine if you're doing it to try and get some sort of advantage over another pc due to OOC knowledge.
Personally though, I've never had a problem with guild sniffing. I just answer questions on such things from the perspective of my character and don't worry about whether or not they are OOCly trying to figure out my guild. Treating it this way has never steered me wrong or left the player of the character giving the interview (afaik) feeling as if I was just OOCly dodging the questions.
I've passed off elementalists (with the right subguild) as rangers, merchants, thieves, and I'm pretty sure people didn't know my pc's true class. If they did, they did a good job of rp'ing around that OOC knowledge.

[a strange shadow]

I like the class system because it enforces coded strengths and weaknesses and prevents a "min/max" sort of character construction that you usually get with classless systems.

[Malken]

I like the class system because it enforces coded strengths and weaknesses and prevents a "min/max" sort of character construction that you usually get with classless systems.

Yah, it's just too bad there isn't any "min/max"'ing going on on the other RPI muds that use such a system. That's a total myth that people use when they want to defend the class system of Armageddon.

[a strange shadow]

I like the class system because it enforces coded strengths and weaknesses and prevents a "min/max" sort of character construction that you usually get with classless systems.

Yah, it's just too bad there isn't any "min/max"'ing going on on the other RPI muds that use such a system. That's a total myth that people use when they want to defend the class system of Armageddon.

Really? Beg to differ.

Seen it from the other side of the clouds, even.

Maybe I'm a masochist, but I like the fact that my character sucks balls at some things and has no hope of improving beyond mediocre at best, and the IC frustration that it brings.

[jhunter]

 That statement is exactly what people use when they want to defend the classless system of other games. I've seen it, it's -fact- that it does exist. I personally think that the addition of stat prioritization was more of a negative impact on the game than a positive one and I feel that changing Armageddon to a classless system would also be a negative impact but of a much greater degree.

[jhunter]

Maybe I'm a masochist, but I like the fact that my character sucks balls at some things and has no hope of improving beyond mediocre at best, and the IC frustration that it brings.

Yeah. I think characters have become more "codedly" cookie-cutter since the addition of stat prioritization too. I can't think of the last time I ran into a warrior pc that wasn't strong or fast, or a mage or merchant pc that wasn't smart as hell, or a crim class that wasn't agile and wise.

[Fathi]

I like the class system because it enforces coded strengths and weaknesses and prevents a "min/max" sort of character construction that you usually get with classless systems.

Yah, it's just too bad there isn't any "min/max"'ing going on on the other RPI muds that use such a system. That's a total myth that people use when they want to defend the class system of Armageddon.

Really? Beg to differ.

Seen it from the other side of the clouds, even.

Maybe I'm a masochist, but I like the fact that my character sucks balls at some things and has no hope of improving beyond mediocre at best, and the IC frustration that it brings.

I guess it just depends on the skillset. I mostly agree with this, but it does piss me off quite a bit that my characters of certain classes can't ever learn to do things that I consider completely unrelated to guild. I don't mind my mages not being able to disarm people. Don't really care that my merchants can't backstab.

I do, however, think certain things like climbing, cooking, digging for valuable rocks, getting a bit of meat off a carcass, and being able to accurately tell which of two items weighs more are some examples of skills that I wish any character class could eventually learn to do with a small degree of reliability, given enough training.

I think the biggest problem with Arm's skillsets for guilds is that they turn a lot of extremely general everyday tasks and knowledge into specialised "skills" that only some people can ever hope to become remotely proficient at.

[AmandaGreathouse]

I think the biggest problem with Arm's skillsets for guilds is that they turn a lot of extremely general everyday tasks and knowledge into specialised "skills" that only some people can ever hope to become remotely proficient at.

[a strange shadow]

Oh, yeah, I agree with that. I'm not against some broadening of the classes, to say, subguild-level abilities.

I'm against the jack-of-all-trade masters of everything who need no one else to accomplish anything they desire.

As much as I'd love to be able to, for example, rock a ranger/assassin and kick utter obliterating ass, it'd be a frighteningly unbalancing combination of skills with no social stigma attached to them (such as there is for a sorcerer, psi, etc etc).

[jhunter]

Yeah, that I do agree with. General skills I think everyone, of any guild should get just at a lower cap than if it were a "specialty" skill of the guild. Cooking, foraging, skinning, climbing, etc. Maybe make a "basic skill set" that every pc gets regardless of class that gets a boost to the cap for higher (wisdom/ agility/ str/ end) with no cap if it is a class specialty and perhaps a higher learning rate if it is a class specialty.

I'm against the jack-of-all-trade masters of everything who need no one else to accomplish anything they desire.

[Lizzie]

BuNutzCola:
If it was -that- character, then no I never would've guessed he was a merchant class. Not in a million years. In fact I was convinced he was some sort of hybrid semi-warrior/karma-restricted somethingorother that was specially approved just for the role. But then, it wasn't his skills that impressed me anyway, since I didn't really get to see them in action all that much. It was the roleplay, and all the weird shit he got into that made that character so bad-ass awesome

P.S. I even thought at one point early on, that he was a sorcerer. Even though I'd never seen him cast a single spell.

[SMuz]

I'd like to encourage people to play the fool sometimes. Yes, you are a PC, and for some hidden reason, are better than most NPCs and vNPCs in the area. However, maybe you are a TWAT at dancing. Emote it out.

Maybe you aren't great at hitting on people. Trip over your words.

Better, you aren't great at sex. Mudsex someone and emote simply laying there, making gutteral and unconvincing moans.



I bet there are a TON of RL relationships where one person is a dead fuck. BE THAT PERSON.

While, the first ideas were great.. that last one is pushing it a little. Dude, it's a fantasy game. Anyway, I think a ton of Arm players are bad at RP-ing sex; I'd just like to see them not FTB when that happens. Or you could do what most people on IRC do - emote in long detail the RP to the point where your partner gets bored IC and IRL. Shouldn't be too hard for most people to slow down and trip over the emoting syntax.

I do like seeing weaknesses though. I think I've kudos'ed just about everyone who's had a weakness and stuck to it, especially when it severely disadvantaged them.

[Ourla]

Anyway, I think a ton of Arm players are bad at RP-ing sex; I'd just like to see them not FTB when that happens.

Many of us have valid reasons for choosing not to roleplay out sex, such as respect for our RL significant others, being underage, fearing -you're- underage, etc.  It makes me laugh when people think FTB is 'bad' sex RP.

I agree with Riev.  Fools are awesome.  I wouldn't expect anyone to make a habit of playing them, but they sure lighten up the gameworld in between your mighty dwarven firemage or your sexy Kadian.

[WarriorPoet]

I don't RP sex because not only is it uncomfortable and cheesy, but because I play this game to pretend to chop muthafuckaz up with bone swords. Not to have virtual sex with some other smelly dude who is pretending to be the petite, delicately-snatched lass.

I like fools and fuckups, so long as they don't become comic-relief.

[Synthesis]

I don't RP sex because not only is it uncomfortable and cheesy, but because I play this game to pretend to chop muthafuckaz up with bone swords. Not to have virtual sex with some other smelly dude who is pretending to be the petite, delicately-snatched lass.

I like fools and fuckups, so long as they don't become comic-relief.

lol, sig'ed.

[Ampere]

Anyway, I think a ton of Arm players are bad at RP-ing sex; I'd just like to see them not FTB when that happens.

Many of us have valid reasons for choosing not to roleplay out sex, such as respect for our RL significant others, being underage, fearing -you're- underage, etc.  It makes me laugh when people think FTB is 'bad' sex RP.

I agree with Riev.  Fools are awesome.  I wouldn't expect anyone to make a habit of playing them, but they sure lighten up the gameworld in between your mighty dwarven firemage or your sexy Kadian.

The plaintiff submits these logs found on her husband's computer which, as you can see if you turn your attention to the highlighted sections, clearly shows the defendant getting reamed by an ascii elf.

FTBing, followed by an OOC discussion, saves both my time, and your lotion.

[Synthesis]

You are now afflicted with Zagu-la, crotch rot.  There is no way you could escape it from my fluids.

Funniest FTB ever.

P.S. You never know who's watching!

[Malken]

You are now afflicted with Zagu-la, crotch rot.  There is no way you could escape it from my fluids.

Funniest FTB ever.

P.S. You never know who's watching!

And who watches with the Watchman 

Friday night at the Malken's is always a blast!

[Synthesis]

You are now afflicted with Zagu-la, crotch rot.  There is no way you could escape it from my fluids.

Funniest FTB ever.

P.S. You never know who's watching!

And who watches with the Watchman 

Friday night at the Malken's is always a blast!

lol wut?

[SMuz]

I'd like to encourage more people to send kudos for PCs that their PC hates, not just for PCs that their PC likes.  Having a good time RPing with someone doesn't have to necessarily come from a good relationship with that PC.  It can come out of stupidity, scorn, fighting, treachery, betrayal, abuse, deception, thievery, insults, or even death.  Zalanthas is a brutal, harsh world, so send some love for those who make it so!

Lol, I do so send kudos to PCs that my PC hates. But usually it's after I kill them and congratulate them on being such a good sport to act so consistently stupid and consistently annoying that they get killed.

Also, I use it as a way of saying "I'm sorry I killed your 20-day warrior". If someone killed me, and did it with a memorable final scene, I'd kudos them too.

[zanthalandreams]

Many of us have valid reasons for choosing not to roleplay out sex, such as respect for our RL significant others, being underage, fearing -you're- underage, etc.  It makes me laugh when people think FTB is 'bad' sex RP.

I hate to derail the derail, but seriously - qft.

This, here, is why none of my characters will ever have anything other than virtual romantic relationships.  In fact, they're all asexual freaks.  My wife has no interest in computers and computer games.  "But honey, it was just In Character?!" would have no meaning whatsoever to her, nor would it save my ass after she just finished watching Dr. OprahPhil's latest 6-hour after school special on rotten spouses who have emotional affairs over the internet because they are secretly satan worshiping drug addicts with gambling problems that are dissatisfied with their sex life.

[tortall]

My wife has no interest in computers and computer games.  "But honey, it was just In Character?!" would have no meaning whatsoever to her, nor would it save my ass after she just finished watching Dr. OprahPhil's latest 6-hour after school special on rotten spouses who have emotional affairs over the internet because they are secretly satan worshiping drug addicts with gambling problems that are dissatisfied with their sex life.

Seriously? Did one of them really do that? I want to watch and laugh.

[Ourla]

[staggerlee]

ROFL.  Best. lol. cat. ever.

[SMuz]

My wife has no interest in computers and computer games.  "But honey, it was just In Character?!" would have no meaning whatsoever to her, nor would it save my ass after she just finished watching Dr. OprahPhil's latest 6-hour after school special on rotten spouses who have emotional affairs over the internet because they are secretly satan worshiping drug addicts with gambling problems that are dissatisfied with their sex life.

Seriously? Did one of them really do that? I want to watch and laugh.

Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if they did. Something I've seen in the newspaper last year about symptoms of your spouse having emotional affairs over the Internet:

• Turns the monitor to face away from the door
• Poses as a member of the opposite sex online
• Often deletes text messages
• Has a strange addiction to the Internet, to the point where he spends most of his time in chat rooms

There are plenty more to that list, which I forgot. Dr. Phil isn't the only one worried about this epidemic. But what the hell - RP-ing sex is the hardest part of the game, especially things like dwarf-elf relationships

[SMuz]

I'd like to encourage people to give the story priority above their own character's success in it.

Heh, this is going to derail.

I don't get it whenever someone talks about the game being a story. Am I really the only one who doesn't get it? I see it all as a sort of artificial life thing - give the character a personality, background, some skills, then watch how everything clicks together, how the character procedurally generates his future. Honestly, I don't give much of a damn for any progression. I just love seeing my character live and interact with the world.

It's hard to describe. But story is far from the right word for it. It's.. a role. I don't see any success in it; it's a character trying to live his life. If he has to kill, he kills because that's what he does. Because it's what's convenient - he won't pull his blade to save someone else's story, nor will he do it "to advance the story". He kills because that's just what he would do.

Hmm.. just a thought.

[Jenred]

I'd like to encourage people to give the story priority above their own character's success in it.

Heh, this is going to derail.

I don't get it whenever someone talks about the game being a story. Am I really the only one who doesn't get it? I see it all as a sort of artificial life thing - give the character a personality, background, some skills, then watch how everything clicks together, how the character procedurally generates his future. Honestly, I don't give much of a damn for any progression. I just love seeing my character live and interact with the world.

It's hard to describe. But story is far from the right word for it. It's.. a role. I don't see any success in it; it's a character trying to live his life. If he has to kill, he kills because that's what he does. Because it's what's convenient - he won't pull his blade to save someone else's story, nor will he do it "to advance the story". He kills because that's just what he would do.

Hmm.. just a thought.

Im kinda in agreement. I am writing my own story, not "participating in one". So to prioritize something other than what I am creating myself, would put my own goals secondary. I don't really see that as conducive to what I'm trying to get out of the game.

[flurry]

I could have worded it better, but I guess what I basically meant was "winning isn't everything".  Let your character overlook things, make poor decisions, give in to temptation, be hoodwinked, or otherwise be less than awesome.

[Medena]

Im kinda in agreement. I am writing my own story, not "participating in one". So to prioritize something other than what I am creating myself, would put my own goals secondary. I don't really see that as conducive to what I'm trying to get out of the game.

The thing is though that so often, despite our best efforts for our PC's, our plans for them just do not work out and the story we were contemplating for them is entirely different from the story they end up having.  That does not mean that their story will not end up every bit as exciting as the one we had planned for them, however, if we just let it roll and keep them living in the moment.

I remember writing up the highlights of the life of one my first PC's for the newly instituted staff wiki.  This was back before there was biography code.  As I read back over the five or six paragraphs, I thought ... wow, did she ever have an interesting life, now that I see it written up like that.  And it was absolutely nothing like what I'd planned. I'd planned for her to be a street performer, a juggler and acrobat, who'd eventually work for House Fale (which unbeknownst to newbie me was only virtual then).  Though for the first RL month I played her she was the juggler, soon after that, Fate in the person of a scary, blood-sucking templar intervened and threw her life in a different direction.  The collective story of Zalanthas superceded my own story but gave me a better, richer one for about six RL months.

I guess what people mean when they say "to give the story priority above their own character's success in it" is to not be so fixed on a set plan that you don't move realistically in the world around you just because it is not what you planned to happen.

[Delstro]

The point that I agree with is......

Don't try and make a perfect PC. They must have flaws to have good, meaningful conflict. You have to make bad decisions for your character because that is what the uneducated character would do.

Don't try and "win." This means that if I sneak up on you and pull a knife on you, don't go "Oh I am a badass 10 days played warrior and I think that guy is really a pickpocket guild. I am going to attack them!" Don't just insta-flee either. Why don't you RP it out? You don't know what I am capable of, or who I'm hiding.

[Jingo]

I the idea is that this is a communal game. We're driving the narrative together. I think the key here is really whether or not you're interacting with the rest of the world. If you're just interacting with the code, or just one aspect of the game and ignoring the others, then we have a problem.

There's nothing wrong with having a character motivated by certain goals. It's definetly encouraged. Just don't always expect your character to know the best course of action every step of the way.

Also, kudos for everyone who goes out of their way to put themselves at a disadvantage. Even something as simple as using a whisper to spread sensitive info rather than The Way.

[SMuz]

I could have worded it better, but I guess what I basically meant was "winning isn't everything".  Let your character overlook things, make poor decisions, give in to temptation, be hoodwinked, or otherwise be less than awesome.

I understood what you meant. Just wanted to derail

Yeah, I love putting myself at a disadvantage. I used to try and get as much as an advantage, like every other noob, but I find that it's more fun to actually just go along with the game. Those little things like hemoting when I'm lying or purposely not paying attention when my character has long think sessions. Those things can be even more fun than winning, especially the consequences. I don't think anyone will actually kill you for lying to them or actually pickpocket you when you whisper "I have a 2000 'sid shipment" so go ahead.

[Synthesis]

I don't think anyone will actually kill you for lying to them or actually pickpocket you when you whisper "I have a 2000 'sid shipment" so go ahead.

Actually...I've murdered several characters after overhearing them bragging about all the cool stuff they had in their packs.  Welcome to Armageddon!

[Agent_137]

Also, kudos for everyone who goes out of their way to put themselves at a disadvantage. Even something as simple as using a whisper to spread sensitive info rather than The Way.

I'm typically more concerned about mindworms than jack nobody the ranger. But I get what you're saying.

[SMuz]

Psionicists

Hmm.. I've always thought that anyone given the responsibility to play psions would be the most mature roleplayers. Hell, if you could get to 9 karma (or spec apped one and succeeded), you're practically staff

I've never, not once, had a bad experience with psionicists. Conflicts, sure, but all of them were great and added to the game.

[Maso]

God. Lets not turn this thread onto Psi's too.   

[SMuz]

It's like.. the derail thread. It's for turning into whatever crap that's not cool on the main thread

[Qzzrbl]

Psionicists

I've always thought that anyone given the responsibility to play psions would be the most mature roleplayers.

Yeah, you'd think, wouldn't you?