Re: I'd Like To Encourage-DERAIL

[Synthesis]

If I was conducting a job interview, and all the interviewee would say about his abilities is "I can do stuff," I think I'd be well within my rights to be suspicious.

I mean, who goes into a Kadius interview and won't reveal anything about his background?  It's not your -right- to be hired by a GMH or a noble house.  You have to -prove- your worth on a continual basis, and if you can't even prove you're worth a shit during the interview...why are you looking for the job in the first place, you worthless scumbag?

If you picked a 'gicker guild with a subguild completely unrelated to the job you're attempting to get, you might want to think long and hard about how and whether you can successfully pull off the sort of deception required to get away with being utterly useless in any coded sense.

If I, in real life, fraudulently applied for a job as a computer programmer, I would be found out in less than a week, because I know squat about computer programming.  In real life, where things are nice and easy, I might get slapped with some sort of fraud charge (at the worst), but I'd probably just get fired.

Maybe I have higher expectations for brutality in Armageddon.  If I were playing a GMH boss-type, and some dude came in and wasted my time (and possibly my stock of hard-earned raw materials) by fraudulent enlistment, you can bet your ass you'd be seeing that dude's boots in the shop next week.  If I hire a guy to craft swords, and he never turns out a single blade, his ass is mine.  If I hire a guy to spring locks, and he ends up breaking five lockpicks and getting arrested, his ass is mine.  If I hire a guy to hunt duskhorn and I end up having to save his dumb ass every time we go out the gates, his ass is mine.

From my point of view, Zalanthans aren't the type to suffer incompetence.  If you're a useless turd, go fester in the 'rinth with the rest of the useless turds, or get to polishing up your story.

[Marauder Moe]

I just want to find out if the guy who is trying to get hired as a crafter, isn't really someone who can not only pick locks, but would probably pick the lock to my apartment and rob me blind, and never actually MAKE anything other than a mess.

That is bad guild sniffing, though.  Just because someone has the lockpick skill doesn't mean they're going to rob you.

[staggerlee]

You people are seriously killing my buzz.
The thread seems to have died in the face of all this.

[staggerlee]

What if I reworded things in an "I'd like to encourage people to..."?

I'd like to encourage people to not treat someone as a pickpocket/burglar/assassin only because you suspect they are coded guild_pickpocket/guild_burglar/guild_assassin.

I'd like to encourage you not to suck.

[Lizzie]

What Synthesis said. Perhaps I was speaking a foreign language. But what he said..is what I mean. Exactly. I just worded it differently.

[Ourla]

What if I reworded things in an "I'd like to encourage people to..."?

I'd like to encourage people to not treat someone as a pickpocket/burglar/assassin only because you suspect they are coded guild_pickpocket/guild_burglar/guild_assassin.

I'd like to encourage you not to suck.

Whoah.  Didn't expect to hear something like that coming from you, Staggerlee.  This thread is going to get locked if it keeps regressing.

On topic, I'd like to encourage female dwarves, female muls, and female HGs.

[staggerlee]

What if I reworded things in an "I'd like to encourage people to..."?

I'd like to encourage people to not treat someone as a pickpocket/burglar/assassin only because you suspect they are coded guild_pickpocket/guild_burglar/guild_assassin.

I'd like to encourage you not to suck.

Whoah.  Didn't expect to hear something like that coming from you, Staggerlee.  This thread is going to get locked if it keeps regressing.

On topic, I'd like to encourage female dwarves, female muls, and female HGs.

The tongue implied "totally joking." 

<--- that winky is a sly, you should know that wink.
And more females of other races would be awesome. My favorite half giant ever was a lady.

[Malken]

The problem is that you still all hire those incompetent people and then bitch about it AFTER the fact.

I was playing a burglar not too long ago, and there was this GMH veteran hunter ALWAYS in my mind
asking and almost begging me to work for his House, no matter how many times I'd tell him that I wasn't
so good with my weapons and that I had no idea how to hunt, the guy was always telling me that I had
potential and that he could train me to be the best hunter out there. Heck, even a merchant hired me
as her bodyguard for a little while, even after my character kept 'bragging' that he was the worst fighter
in the whole city.

Problem is that when you ask if "Can you guide me through a sandstorm?" is that you pinpoint exactly
if that person is a ranger class or not, no one else can do that, that's a in your face ARE YOU A RANGER Y/N
question.. It's the same as switching to Cavilish the second someone tells you that he's a trader of trinkets..

This is never going to please both sides, some of us just hate that you try to see if we're ranger classes or not
by that simple question, or if we are merchant classes or just a subguild crafter just by switching to cavilish.. It's
just annoying as hell when I'm being the target of it, just as I'm sure it's annoying to you as well if you plan
on that crafter being a Master Crafter in the end, but he's always just going to be a subguild.

This is the Arm system that I dislike so, I love the game, hate the system..

I would encourage the old veteran of Armageddon who just refuse to see any other systems for Armageddon
to go and play some other RPI muds to see just how awesome and beautiful a classless pick your skills from a list
system can be, and how there's no more or less twinkish behaviors than there are on Arm with it.

[Marauder Moe]

People without "useful" coded skills are far from useless, though.  They can be aides/assistants/messengers.  They can be merchants.  They can eventually be leaders.  Heck, I had a merchant in the Byn who was asked to stay even though he could barely kill a sickly gortok.

If you're looking to hire a crafter, then fine.  Ask if the person can craft or is willing to learn.  If they say no, then that's it.  No need to go digging into their past trying to figure out what coded guild they are so you can tell all your friends to be wary of them.  If they say yes but turns out they can't even use a pair of scissors, then fire them.  Even that doesn't mean they're thieves or magickers, though and that you need to get authorities involved.  It just means either they're overconfident or dishonest about crafting (or maybe even a newbie who thought any skill could be learned).

It's the distinction between these assumptions:

It appears that he can't codedly craft, therefor he can't be a crafter.

and

It appears that he can't craft, hunt, or fight, therefor he must be a thief, a murderer, or a magicker.

[staggerlee]

I would like to encourage people to let their characters make bad decisions.  Yes, there is often a price to pay, but... more often than not it leads to something fun, unexpected and often dramatic.  If it's IC, if it's not something utterly retarded - let it happen, let the chips fall where they may and enjoy the beautiful fallout that results.

This was kind of in my vein of WANTING people to steal from PCs, and for PCs to try and leave themselves open for being stolen from.

Apparently, people dislike the idea of the possibility of getting caught, because there are so many people out there who decide to just say "Okay, I'll just kill you to make myself feel better."

I could -seriously- use a thief in my pocket. Or, better, someone that CONSTANTLY makes bad decisions so that they can be punished and never learn. Fun for them? Possibly. Fun for other PCs involved? Immsenely.

Getting caught commiting crimes has led to some of the best rp situations I've ever been in. Other times I've just been ignored or kicked out for it. Never had dire consequences so far. *shrug*
Like getting hired for jobs you're not proficient at, I found it helps to act appropriately respectful, helpful, and demonstrate your rp ability.

If you steal and then spam walk away or refuse to tell your future boss what kind of job you could do... then yeah, there's a good chance their response will be in a similar vein.   

This game is fun. Have fun. Stop stressing so much.

[Synthesis]

People without "useful" coded skills are far from useless, though.  They can be aides/assistants/messengers.  They can be merchants.  They can eventually be leaders.  Heck, I had a merchant in the Byn who was asked to stay even though he could barely kill a sickly gortok.

If you're looking to hire a crafter, then fine.  Ask if the person can craft or is willing to learn.  If they say no, then that's it.  No need to go digging into their past trying to figure out what coded guild they are so you can tell all your friends to be wary of them.  If they say yes but turns out they can't even use a pair of scissors, then fire them.  Even that doesn't mean they're thieves or magickers, though and that you need to get authorities involved.  It just means either they're overconfident or dishonest about crafting (or maybe even a newbie who thought any skill could be learned).

It's the distinction between these assumptions:

It appears that he can't codedly craft, therefor he can't be a crafter.

and

It appears that he can't craft, hunt, or fight, therefor he must be a thief, a murderer, or a magicker.

I never said that non-coded abilities aren't useful.

I also never claimed anything about inferring guilds from lack of skills.  However, you can definitely infer that: if Amos can't hit the broad side of a mekillot with a bow, can't skin the mangy hide off a gortok, gets lost every time he ventures away from the North Road, and can't defend himself against a lame tregil, then Amos was probably lying when he said he was cut out to be a hunter.  If he can't do anything any normal hunter can do, Amos is not a hunter.

My point is this:  if you sign up for something you can't handle, prepare to suffer the IC consequences of not being able to handle it.  If you lie to me about your abilities and take pay, you are stealing, whether you are guild_pickpocket or not, and the theft will be dealt with.  Getting murdered for pretending to be a crafter can have zero to do with the fact you are a magicker, but have everything to do with the fact that you haven't crafted a damned thing, yet you've been sucking pay from the House for months.

[RogueGunslinger]

And you'd kill an employee if he was trying his hardest to make things, too?

I'd personally just fire them.

[Lizzie]

People without "useful" coded skills are far from useless, though.  They can be aides/assistants/messengers.  They can be merchants.  They can eventually be leaders.  Heck, I had a merchant in the Byn who was asked to stay even though he could barely kill a sickly gortok.

If you're looking to hire a crafter, then fine.  Ask if the person can craft or is willing to learn.  If they say no, then that's it.  No need to go digging into their past trying to figure out what coded guild they are so you can tell all your friends to be wary of them.  If they say yes but turns out they can't even use a pair of scissors, then fire them.  Even that doesn't mean they're thieves or magickers, though and that you need to get authorities involved.  It just means either they're overconfident or dishonest about crafting (or maybe even a newbie who thought any skill could be learned).

It's the distinction between these assumptions:

It appears that he can't codedly craft, therefor he can't be a crafter.

and

It appears that he can't craft, hunt, or fight, therefor he must be a thief, a murderer, or a magicker.

Totally agree, Moe. If I've ruled out that he's not a crafter, or he can't handle a weapon, OR if he is being too obviously vague for me to tell one way or another, then the interview is over. At that point, I don't give a shit what he is. Because what he isn't, is an employee. What other skills he has, might come in handy at some point in the future, and if he doesn't want to tell me what those other skills are, that's his prerogative. It's just those "I can do stuff" kinds of interviews that I feel are a waste of my time both ICly and OOCly, and I wish people would be more appreciative of that.

[Marauder Moe]

Fair enough, though I would still like to encourage you to see the value in "unskilled" (or "soft-skilled") employees.  A good aide really can be invaluable, as can good merchants (salespeople).

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Nobody'll deny the usefulness of certain classes in unclass-like positions. But sometimes I really want someone who can guard me. I want them to have the skill, guard. Because, uh, it makes my fatass merchant a little safer, if the guy has the skill, guard. It's not sniffing - it's checking the resume.

[RogueGunslinger]

This is exactly why I wished that we had a classless system, where you could learn any skill of your choosing.

God that would make this game 100000000000000000 times better.

[Malken]

This is exactly why I wished that we had a classless system, where you could learn any skill of your choosing.

God that would make this game 100000000000000000 times better.

This truth, it has now been quoted.

[Lou]

Does my PC know that he can never, ever, learn certain skills, even if he's smart and spends years studying?

[Dahomey]

Does my PC know that he can never, ever, learn certain skills, even if he's smart and spends years studying?

No. If he's willing to spend IG years studying a subject he isn't naturally good at, he should learn it. May never be as good as one naturally talented at it though.

[a strange shadow]

Does my PC know that he can never, ever, learn certain skills, even if he's smart and spends years studying?

No. If he's willing to spend IG years studying a subject he isn't naturally good at, he should learn it. May never be as good as one naturally talented at it though.

And this is all possible, through roleplay and the request tool.

[BlackMagic0]

Does my PC know that he can never, ever, learn certain skills, even if he's smart and spends years studying?

No. If he's willing to spend IG years studying a subject he isn't naturally good at, he should learn it. May never be as good as one naturally talented at it though.

And this is all possible, through roleplay and the request tool.

What she says.  Through a lot of roleplay, and a request to the staff they can look into adding the skill. Though we are talking a couple of IG years with many logs. Remember LOG a lot of the study/getting beat on.

[Lizzie]

Does my PC know that he can never, ever, learn certain skills, even if he's smart and spends years studying?

No. If he's willing to spend IG years studying a subject he isn't naturally good at, he should learn it. May never be as good as one naturally talented at it though.

And this is all possible, through roleplay and the request tool.

What she says.  Through a lot of roleplay, and a request to the staff they can look into adding the skill. Though we are talking a couple of IG years with many logs. Remember LOG a lot of the study/getting beat on.

For the new player, please note that's talking about "the" skill. As in, one. Sometimes, two. But it is -not- possible, that I'm aware of, for the average PC to start out as (for example) a warrior/thug, and through roleplay and request tool, end up with a warrior/thug with mindbender skills, 4 rukkian spells, and 6 crafts added to their skills list. I mean, codedly, I'm sure anything is possible. But I think you would agree there'd be no point in having skillsets at all, if all it took to get any skills we wanted and as many skills as we wanted, was to roleplay our attempts to learn them and submit logs through the request tool.

The point of skillsets is to pick one that will complement your character's life or expected attributes. It isn't to just pick something arbitrarily and expect that through RP and the request tool, you'll eventually get all kinds of other doodads and bells and whistles added on.

[RogueGunslinger]

From how I understand it, you'll be lucky to ever get more than one of any skill added through mucho logs, no matter how many ig years you practice... Which I don't exactly understand...

[SMuz]

I do get the guilds system, because it helps tremendously in game balance, otherwise people who pick skills solely to RP will be disadvantaged by the powergamers. And yeah, I think the skill request thing is just a little bit too strict, because if I ever do ask for a skill, it's for purely RP reasons. If someone taught me tracking, hide, or guard and it's capped at a very low level, the only purpose of having that skill is to say that for my years of IG training, I can pretend to not suck at it. It becomes a "yay, my rescue skill has an echo, but I'll never be able to rescue anyone".

Now that weaponcrafting subguild.. that is a fricking mess. I expect it to mean that my character would be adept at crafting certain weapons as his background and motives suggest, but then, I'd still have to submit several skill requests for a skill that doesn't seem to exist in any other subguild and then only get it at a low cap. That's just a huge downer.

So, yeah, basically you can't really learn a skill that's not in your guild.

[Malken]

I do get the guilds system, because it helps tremendously in game balance, otherwise people who pick skills solely to RP will be disadvantaged by the powergamers.

This is what people always come up with when someone mentions a classless system.. Aren't you the one who played SoI or Harshlands in the past? If so, then you know that it's
totally false and there aren't more twinkish behaviors there with a skill picking system than there is on Arm..

Actually, I find that there's a lot more twinkish behaviors on Arm than the other two mentioned muds (Because they have coded means to prevent it, like craft timers and such), but I still love Arm the best and that's why I stick to it.