Fletchery (or lack thereof)

[drunkendwarf]

All right...I've got a question for all you other fletchers out there...
Does it seem to you that it's just not even worth it to make those damn arrows? I mean, it takes me probably a good 4 or 5 rl hours to produce 15 arrows. That's from scratch, mind you, gathering all the raw materials necessary from the wild, but STILL...4 hours to come up with 15 arrows?? And they're not worth a damn thing, so it's not like it pays off by being able to sell them.
My *archer* has just stopped making them...it's not even worth it. I just buy the damn things.
I realize that IRL making arrows is something that's a bitch of a thing to do, but I'm starting to feel as though fletchery is one of the most worthless crafting skills I've come across to date on Arm. I NEVER have more than 10 arrows in my quiver, and if I do...it's because I've spent the last 4 to 6 hours to do it. Although actually right now I've got more, but that's because I haven't been able to shoot a single arrow in like 3 rl days because of the wind.... :}

Couple things that might help, not sure if this has ever been suggested:
be able to 'forage shard' instead of 'forage rock'. How much sense does it make that I keep grabbing head-sized chunks of rock off the ground when I'm looking for an arrowhead? Make it more difficult to accomplish, I don't care...it just sucks when it's only 1 out of every 6 or 7 successful forage attempts that I actually get what I'm looking for.

Same thing for branches. I'm looking for something that'll make a decent arrowshaft...so I pick up a vine? Again, make the difficulty higher if you're foraging for something specific..I don't know..I just know I'm frustrated as hell at how long it takes to keep a quiver even halfway full.

Don't even get me started on the success rate (or lack thereof) on making arrowshafts...heh. My near 20 day archer isn't even hitting 50%...by a ways.

[Gorobei]

Don't even get me started on the success rate (or lack thereof) on making arrowshafts...heh. My near 20 day archer isn't even hitting 50%...by a ways.

Subclass crafting skills all have very low caps.  You probably have the skill maxxed already.

[X-D]

Well, this sorta goes with a beef I have on crafting.

At least the success rate part, and that is failing on things you have made a hundred, 200, 500 or more times before, not talking about say daggers, but say a particular type of dagger or knife, Lets use a simple bone knife, you you take a bunch of bone parts, sure, at first you are going to fail alot, you don't yet know things like how to judge how brittle the bone is, how soft, maybe not be able to identify flaws, how hard to carve or chisel, etc etc, so after you make say 100 daggers you have broke 1000 bones or more, but eventually you are going to know all of these things, after say 5 years and 10,000 bone daggers the odds on failing should be basicly zero even if it is a hobby (subclass skill) IRL I do not make a living making paper planes, and when I first learned how to make them when I was like 5 I sucked, but by the time I was six and about 500 paper planes later I could make near perfect planes every single time and I still can, every single time, and the same applies for every craft hobby I have and every other person I know that makes things for a hobby.

I agree on the foraging too, if I am out looking for purple egg sized rocks IRL I certainly am not going to be picking up red head size rocks, I don't care how many are laying about.

Now, if I'm looking for food I will pick up anything edible so I guess that is fine the way it is:)

Fletchery is definitly a skill that should improve to near flawlessnes no matter what class or sub you are, if you have the skill eventually you should be able to succeed in crafting arrows 99% of the time...after all, I'm pretty sure it is the most limited of crafting skills as far as variaty of things you can make with it:)

[gfair]

From reading this thread, I'll suggest some ideas that spring to mind.

- Rock splitting (a new skill).  This skill involves the careful task of taking a large rock, and breaking it up into smaller, more useful components.  I feel this too - finding a large rock of worthwhile material, and having to junk it or discard it because it isn't the size specific to the components you want to craft, or can craft.  This is very similar to lumberjacking, where a lumberjack can take a log and split it up into various components.  And I know that the native peoples of North America would crack stones down into tools and arrowheads.

- Greater results from lessons.  In real life, lessons from a skilled crafter can make a large difference in the quality of an apprentice's work, in most any discipline.  Perhaps lessons in the game should be given greater benefit to the learner, and thus the seeking of wise teachers would take on greater importance?

- No cap on sub-guild skills.  In light of the examples provided, a low cap is unrealistic.  A cap on any skill is unrealistic, unless it is determined only as a factor of Wisdom, because anybody can attain expertise in a craft if they have enough practice and good teaching. Solution?  Maybe increase the learning with every failure, scale it asymptotically if not done so already.

Then to avoid a flood of crafted items on the markets, scale down availability, and make people have to work harder for it. Perhaps Gith caves or Gortok dens are great sources of bones?  Perhaps though a stick looks good to make a knife or arrowshaft out of, there is a flaw in its grain that makes it break easily, during crafting or perhaps after the knife is made - the crafter has done everything right, the flaw is in the wood, so the crafter still learns, but the outcome is still not good.


- Searching.  I like the example - you're looking for sticks, but in the game you end up with a vine, twig, extra-large branch.  Sentient creatures like those available to players are capable of sorting between these things with ease, and someone trained in a craft would be easily capable of tossing away a vine when looking for a branch.

I disagree that it should be harder to find a specific item - it might take longer than the existing delay, but it should require no higher forage skill to find a specific item as opposed to any item.  If anything, finding a specific item is what everyone is doing, why randomize?  The skill should have two options - general, and specific. General allows people to learn what is available, see what they can make from it, and specific allows them to find more of that item.

This is all opinion and suggestion.

[Dazed and Confused]

The point you all don't realize is your not a skilled crafter!

Be a merchant if you want to be a crafter!

[X-D]

No, be a merchant if you want to be skilled in crafting everything(eventually)

Point is not being the generic skilled crafter, but a specialized crafter, Say you have weaponscrafter, you have the knifemaking skill, thats all you work on, then you should get darn good at making knives, and if it is just one or two types of knives then you should be -really- good at making them. A staff member stated once that the game remembers the types of creatures you have been in combat with and if you fight more of some types then others you will get better at fighting that type, So, you could have a char that specializes in raptor hides, after killing basicly nothing but raptors after a few years he can kill them in a few swings but when he comes across a scrab he gets his ass handed to him cause he has no experiance with that creature.(a mild shock to the player no doubt)

Basicly the same thing should apply to crafting, sure, your skill goes up with everything you fail at making using that skill, but if you make strictly flint steak knives, after a fw hundred you should be pretty darn good at making them, but that does not mean you would be above whatever the main skill is at in making any other types of knives.

It is silly that somebody with fletchery can work at making arrows and nothing but arrows for 10-100 ic years have made 10,000 arrows in that time and still fail half the time.

I don't mind skill caps in everything except for crafting, makes sense in all the other skills for gameplay reasons and even realistic reasons so don't anyody think I'm talking about getting rid of them, I'm not.


But crafting something has fewer variables and they are more easily controlled by the crafter, as I stated in a prior post, IRL you eventually learn how to minimize failier at every point of the crafting process, from material selection on.

[bladeranger]

Yeah I like those ideas, just when do you get better I thought you got better everytime you failed

[bladeranger]

What does san say about removing caps from the crafting skill?,I love that rock splitting idea could we get it implemented?,oh and maby you could do that for larger branches as well people in the middle ages wud most likly have found a larger stick and broken it down to smaller ones for arrow shafts.

[Eclipse]

Uh, just a thought but in RL, people spend years learning things. In Arm, you can learn everything within a day if you spam things continuously and whatnot. The caps are there to balance out the classes. If everyone could attain superb fletchery or superb woodworking, I imagine the merchant classes would have a problem on their hands in that their ability to do something very well just got killed. Despite having a lot of potential crafting skills for a merchant, if everyone had one of those and worked on them, the merchant's going to find his/her market very limited and probably unprofitable given the limits on sales you can make presently.

[Dazed and Confused]

Find a merchant and buy arrows from them. Solution solved.

[Cuusardo]

Find a merchant and buy arrows from them. Solution solved.

Oh, but that would be too easy!  

[Bob]

what about expanding the caps?

[drunkendwarf]

Find a merchant and buy arrows from them. Solution solved.

Does that not ENTIRELY defeat the purpose of having fletchery?

[Angela Christine]

Find a merchant and buy arrows from them. Solution solved.

Does that not ENTIRELY defeat the purpose of having fletchery?

No, the purpose of having fletchery and other crafts is to have fun crafting, and to back up your RP so that if you tell people you are a fletcher (or a stonecarver, basketweaver, etc.) you can back it up.

If your goal is to be a hunter, you probably will not be able to craft enough arrows to keep yourself well stocked.  However, fletchery does give you things to do when you are not hunting, coded things that give you the satisfaction of having coded object to show for your efforts.  

Yes, finding the materials you need through foraging will take a long time, so if you don't like foraging you will spend a long time doing something you don't like.  The answer to this is to hook up with some other crafters and forage together; a stonecrafter has little use for the shards you desire but covets many of the other stones you find, a jewler will like some of the other items, and so on.  Or make being a scavenger part of your character concept and make vast piles of 'sid selling the materials you can't use.  Almost everything you can forage can be sold to an NPC somewhere, and many PC city dwellers will also be happy to find a supplier.  Collecting items that sell for less than 10 sid each may make you feel like a chump at first, but I've known PCs that got rich this way -- obviously having high strength so you can haul a bunch of stuff helps.  Occasionally the weather will get so bad that you can't forage outdoors, but thankfully that is rare.

Once you have the materials on hand, constructing arrows gives you something to do while you are sitting around in town, or waiting for your kank to rest up out in the wilds.  Crafting in town creates an opening for strangers to talk to you, everyone from a noble or wealthy merchant to the lowest begger can use the "What are you making?" opening line.  If you have joined a group that doesn't let you  go out of town alone, having a craft to fall back on gives you _something_ to do while you wait.

Some people enjoy crafting and figuring out how things work, other people hate it and are bored to tears by the very thought of chipping one more virtual rock.  If you enjoy it, great.    If you don't like crafting, then don't do it.  You can be successful without ever crafting a thing.  Or give up on crafting for now, and go back to it when you get bored with your character's regular activities.  I find some crafts aren't that useful to new characters (like bandage making) but provide some variety for established characters that are falling into a rut.

AC

[spawnloser]

One question I have along this thread...if your main class would branch a skill that your subclass gives you to start, are you still limited by the subclasses skillcap until you would branch the skill normally?

[X-D]

I think that is the way it is Spawn.

Eclipse, have you ever played a merchant?

I notice how people keep talking skill caps and balance, as I said before except for fletchery (and only because even pc merchants for the most part don't bother with making arrows for reasons stated above) I think skill caps should stay in place.

Keep in mind, the main thing that a skill cap does (other then set a fail/success rate) is determin how -good- of an item you can make, a weaponscrafter can make lots of knives but do to the skill cap the best one may be say a bone dagger while the merchant class gets to eventually make (fictitious...I think) a finely balanced obsidian longknife or something equaly snazzy, merchants as we all know are the advanced crafters and that is as it should be.

But for the items that a subclass crafter -can- make, there is no reason why the game can't remember that so and so has made 1,000 simple daggers and should basicly never fail making them, he still will not be able to make anything above his skillcap.

I very much agree with X-D here. But I think it'd be tough with fletchery, since I think depending on what kind of wood you use for the shaft (Even if it's the same type, agafari, but if it's a long branch versus a large branch) and the feather, you get an arrow item with a completely different vnum, so you might get better at that particular combination of parts for an arrow, but now arrows all together. Though even -that- would make a difference.

[The Lonely Hunter]

About the branching Spawn, I think, asked...

I asked the same question about two years ago maybe and was told that the cap is whichever would be higher. So, if you have skill X from your subguild you can get it up to the subguilds cap. Then, when you branch that skill from your guild, the cap goes up to the guilds cap. Make sense?

Also, for the record, I agree that subguild crafting skills shouldbe able to get much better. I dont think that allowing someone to make arrows (orwhatever) a bit more easily will ruin the economy or make the sky fall.

[cyberpatrol_735]

I dug this up.. and I was wondering about it.. Say your char is a ranger/hunter, lives in the grey forrest or such, hardely EVER goes into the cities.. he would thus need to make his own arrows to hunt which he would do constantly.. also how the heck do you get water.. do you have to simply be based on going to the city for it? Can you not 'forage' around for water? etc...

[Agent_137]

I dug this up.. and I was wondering about it.. Say your char is a ranger/hunter, lives in the grey forrest or such, hardely EVER goes into the cities.. he would thus need to make his own arrows to hunt which he would do constantly.. also how the heck do you get water.. do you have to simply be based on going to the city for it? Can you not 'forage' around for water? etc...

Zalanthas is pretty well developed with realistic options. Just do what is logical. Here are a few options.

You'd need to find a water source outside of the city, if there is one.

Or buy water off travelers.

Or send people to fetch water for you in trade for something.

Or go into the city now and then to stock up on water.

Or eat foods with high water content.

[Xygax]

- Rock splitting (a new skill).

We already have a system in place for this.  If you find a rock which you think should be splittable into smaller chunks, just typo it, we'll add it to an appropriate crafting structure that most/all players have access to.

-- X

[Xygax]

As for fletchery, I'm generally pretty pleased with the success-rate and amount of profits to be made from it.  Hunters don't make their coin by whittling arrows, and even a patient, well-RPd hunter can make a decent living on hunting alone.

Another thing to consider is that perhaps you aren't using the best tools?

[wizturbo]

As for fletchery, I'm generally pretty pleased with the success-rate and amount of profits to be made from it.  Hunters don't make their coin by whittling arrows, and even a patient, well-RPd hunter can make a decent living on hunting alone.

Another thing to consider is that perhaps you aren't using the best tools?

TOOLS!  Xygax probably hit the nail on head on what your problem is if your failing a lot.  Tools make a HUGE difference.  Get some good ones, and you'll be real happy you did.  Where to get those tools?  Think about it ICly, who uses arrows alot.....

[Canadian Beaver]

One question I have along this thread...if your main class would branch a skill that your subclass gives you to start, are you still limited by the subclasses skillcap until you would branch the skill normally?

*points to his post in Ask The Staff*

[spawnloser]

Wow, older thread being dug up.  I mean, damn.

Anyway, I asked a different question there, Canadian Beaver.

I asked if the BEST you can get in a skill that is a subguild skill also later branched by your guild is set by the subguild or the guild.  If set by guild, I think maybe the system is kinda broken.  If set by subguild, I would assume (and hope) the skill's max would then go up from the subguild cap to the guild cap when you branch the skill from your guild.

[moab]

Does it seem to you that it's just not even worth it to make those damn arrows? I mean, it takes me probably a good 4 or 5 rl hours to produce 15 arrows. That's from scratch, mind you, gathering all the raw materials necessary from the wild, but STILL...4 hours to come up with 15 arrows??

You ever make arrows and bowstrings in RL?  Now imagine having to find (and not order from a catalog) all those usable parts.

I think that putting in 4rl hours to find the parts and build the arrows is reasonable.  Besides - the "finding the parts" should be a long and extensive RP intensive process, shouldn't it?

Actually sitting down and MAKING them probably takes far less time then it should.  

I'm no expert, but making arrows and bowstrings was pretty time intensive when I did it with all the modern tools.

[Cenghiz]

I believe a hunter subguild's  fletchery cap should be even lower then the archer subguild's.. Still I experienced playing one and I may say, with right tools, it's nearly more than 50%, which's even higher than I thought it would be. Sorry but to ask for more, at least your primary guild should have the skill.

[Jacques]

I think that one assumption people seem to be making is that if your subguild gives you a skill, that means you're going to be proficient at it. For example, hunters can make arrows... but that's not really WHAT they do. They HUNT (duh). So in a pinch, they can manage to cobble together a few things to help them in their hunting, but they're not really "fletchers" in the sense that fletchery is what they DO. There ARE people out there, one would assume, that do nothing but make arrows all day. These people likely have the 99% success rate that I've seen discussed. However, they probably can't SHOOT the arrows to save their lives - they're too busy making them. Specialist vs. Jack of all Trades. Decide which you are, and go with it.

I would also suggest that, with the proper RP in place, a staff member might be able to be convinced to bump up your skill cap for a particular crafting skill at the expense of other skills - so you've made 10,000 knives and are really good at it, but you've forgotten entirely how to make an axe or warhammer.

[Tamarin]

- Rock splitting (a new skill).  This skill involves the careful task of taking a large rock, and breaking it up into smaller, more useful components.

We have this already.  It's called stonecrafting.

[Synthesis]

Re: skillcaps, so spawnloser can stop worrying about it....

Your skill cap is set at your primary guild's max, regardless of whether you've branched the skill or not, as far as I've been able to tell.  I'm saying this because I've branched tertiary skills from a secondary skill I got from the subclass, long before I would've normally branched the secondary skill.  Of course, this is assuming that the tertiary skill branches at a level higher than the normal subclass cap.  So there you go.

[cyberpatrol_735]

Where I am coming from is that say your PC is a "Ranger hunter" who does nothing but lives out in the wild, such said about halflings in the grey forrest.. how do they survive.. I mean, making arrows would be a daily routine in order to hunt your food, seeing as how most of it is -slightly- larger than you.. slightly being sarcastic at that. In any case, I'm not really suggesting that it be improved or anything, but just wanted some answers on why its so hard.. I mean.. you think in certain places you could find water.. -Instead- of having to rely on the city-state water.

[Delirium]

It is perfectly possible to survive out in the wilds without ever needing anything from the city, with a ranger. I'm not just talking out of my ass here, I did it for a good amount of time with one character. As for how, I suggest your character simply pay very close attention to the types of plantlife, animal life, and terrain, and use a little common sense and think about where the sources of water could be. If it was you out in that desert, where would you look?

Good luck.

[Angela Christine]

Yes, you can survive as a ranger without ever going into a city or dealing with another PC.

Yes, there are a few watering holes outside of civilization.  There are very few completely unprotected watering holes, because both people and animals need water.  If you find a place of open water without people around, there is probably a good reason why there are no people around.  :twisted:  Don't expect to find too many lush oasises guarded by nothing but fluffy bunnies.


AC

[Cenghiz]

Even without finding a watering hole, a ranger may survive all in the desert with ease. I did it with a h-giant ranger once.. If that dumb could survive for weeks without even moving close to a city, you may do that too. Every tiny bit of information won't be served you in a plate.. Just investigate and use your skills.. They're there for coded survival.

Note: He was also properly feeding and watering his mount and his pet.

[cyberpatrol_735]

Note: He was also properly feeding and watering his mount and his pet.

Heh, good job.

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

EDIT: I decided my response would fit better in another thread, and I thought it would be cumbersome to have people discussing the same post on two different threads.
So here it is:
http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=11663&start=45