Can we have a crafting list, please?

[SMuz]

It would be nice if a crafting skill came automatically with a list. Maybe something that everyone generically knows. Like a 'Naki weaponcrafter could have a list of simple obsidian weapons, and a Tuluk one would have a list of wooden weapons. Doesn't even have to be a full list, just maybe three to eight items, depending on situation. Just a few generic ones like basic clubs, tunics, skirts, bandages - the players would have to FOIC how to make the really cool stuff.

And maybe even as the character gets better in the skill, some other generic recipes would be unlocked, like to make a generic hammer, hooded cloak, antiseptic bandages.

Also would be nice if the list included what tools would help, like some things would require digging holes, woodcrafting, boneworking, etc.

The stuff is IC knowledge. I have no idea what I need to make a staff IRL, so anything from saws, chisels, and sandpaper seems to make sense. And it's kinda sad if a crafter has no idea how to make something he should IC already know for years. Every real tailor knows how to sew an aba, but I'm not a real tailor, and it's IC not realistic that my character tailor doesn't know

[Majikal]

I would like to see the helpfile examples for the crafting skills maybe be expanded on a bit, a few basic craft recipes, a couple intermediate craft recipes and one expert craft recipe. I personally think that would solve enough of the issues to get any crafter up and going without too much trouble.

[Gimfalisette]

Your best bet for learning crafting recipes, other than the few things that are in the crafting help files, is to join a GMH clan as a crafter. Then, you can learn from PCs whose players have knowledge of crafting, and/or your imms will help you out via emails and animations. Plus, you get to learn about nifty clan-specific crafting recipes, which is extra fun. And if your PC is guild_merchant, eventually you could rise to mastercrafter status and create whole new items for the game, which is a special thrill of its own.

Since we do have these other, interactive options for learning about crafting, I don't really support the idea of much expanding the widely-known crafting recipes.

[Thunkkin]

I think a basic, area-specific list of a few recipes per craft would not be game breaking and would do much to encourage newbie retention.  There is a true niche of gamers that really enjoy crafting (as their sole focus or as a side-focus).  When these people try out Armageddon, I would rather give them a taste of the crafting system and help them to play around a bit with it rather than expect them to somehow know that they need to join a GMH, swear a life oath, and amass excel sheets of OOC knowledge for their next character to use.  Figuring out the crafting system was the most frustrating code-related aspect of the game for me.  Yes, there is a "joy of discovery" to discovering amazing new recipes.  There is no joy of discovery in throwing up your hands after the twentieth item that returns no "analyze" response and concluding that very few things in the game are craftable and that crafting is a waste.  Giving someone a small handful of recipes would not remove the necessity or possibility of PC interactions and training.  It would instead show beginners what is possible and provide them with incentive to continue crafting (and playing the game).  When I was first figuring out how to craft, my reaction was not "Wow, this is frustrating, I should join a GMH."  My reaction was "Wow, I wish I'd picked a subguild that did something."  After long frustration, I begin to get the hang of it.  Only then did I think, "Wow, this is fun - sometime I'll have to play a GMH merchant and really get into this.  Now I can see why this is entertaining." 

I'll also point out that I was shocked to learn that merchant = master crafting, subguild = mediocre crafting.  This should really be clear to new players who want to play a crafter.  It should also be clear what the advantages of being a merchant with a crafting subguild is.  This information is easily available on the GDB - IF you know to search for it.  It's not secret.  It's not "find out IC."  Instead, it's "punish new players by allowing them to make permanent mistakes during character creation."

That's my take.

[FantasyWriter]

Your best bet for learning crafting recipes, other than the few things that are in the crafting help files, is to join a GMH clan as a crafter.

I agree.

[number13]

I'll also point out that I was shocked to learn that merchant = master crafting, subguild = mediocre crafting.  This should really be clear to new players who want to play a crafter. 

Not so mediocre. The subguilds can get pretty good at crafting within their narrow range.  I think it's balanced just fine.

[AmandaGreathouse]

I'll also point out that I was shocked to learn that merchant = master crafting, subguild = mediocre crafting.  This should really be clear to new players who want to play a crafter. 

No so mediocre. The subguilds can get pretty good at crafting within their narrow range.  I think it's balanced just fine.

Could just be how I read it, but it seems like s/he (?) more meant the difference in that subguild crafter will never be 'master crafters', that they may get as good with a single type of crafting (not sure) but they will never have the sheer talent and choice of crafting which a merchant, who can actually write up and create totally new items which don't yet exist.

[Thunkkin]

Could just be how I read it, but it seems like s/he (?) more meant the difference in that subguild crafter will never be 'master crafters', that they may get as good with a single type of crafting (not sure) but they will never have the sheer talent and choice of crafting which a merchant, who can actually write up and create totally new items which don't yet exist.

I'm a boy.

And yes, that's what I meant.  It's not a critical issue, but I was just adding it on while I was thinking about other ways to make crafting into more of a "hook" for beginners.

[Halcyon]

I'd offer that a list isnt need, but a slightly different approach to research.  Don't start with the items you want to make, start with the materials that are logical to work with.  The helpfiles may not all be very helpful, but I only found one craft to be truly obtuse to start.

I'll second Gimfalisette's comment about joining a GMH, or finding a teacher.  Its invaluable.

[Thunkkin]

There's lots of useful information in this thread for someone who wants to become a master crafter.  Yes, joining a GMH or finding a teacher is the way to go.

However, none of this is a compelling argument for why a few basic starting recipes do more harm than good.  Giving your average newb who makes a Byn warrior/weaponscrafter a few basic recipes seems to add more fun (and realism, since they DO have the subguild) than telling them to leave the Byn and join a GMH.

[Ourla]

There's lots of useful information in this thread for someone who wants to become a master crafter.  Yes, joining a GMH or finding a teacher is the way to go.

However, none of this is a compelling argument for why a few basic starting recipes do more harm than good.  Giving your average newb who makes a Byn warrior/weaponscrafter a few basic recipes seems to add more fun (and realism, since they DO have the subguild) than telling them to leave the Byn and join a GMH.

You're aware that the crafting skill helpfiles generally contain a recipe or two along with the proper syntax, right?  With my crafters, I found that they gave me sufficient direction to start in.  I'll second (or third or fourth) the sentiment of finding a teacher or joining a GMH.  My first long-lived PC was a Kadian crafter/hunter.  She could make a few single-item things with her crafting subguild from the start, but after I joined Kadius and started learning recipes IC from other crafters, her 'cookbook' grew in leaps and bounds.

I don't think it should be easy for your average indie to make a ton of different things right off the bat.  There's the lack of money most commoners suffer from, and the fact that the GMHs exist and are run much like the Guilds of 14th and 15th century Europe, with apprentices, journeymen, and masters making their way up through the ranks from the bottom and learning as they go.

[Thunkkin]

Yes, yes.  I am aware that there are help files with some examples ("craft hide into pants!") and yes, not being an idiot, I'm aware that if you're a crafter and you join a GMH, you'll probably learn lots of recipes and be good at crafting.  I'm not entirely sure how giving out a handful of recipes is being equated with joining a GMH or making "a ton of different things right off the bat."  If you look at my posts in this thread, you'll see that I'm coming at this from the angle of the newbie experience to this mud.

I'm not sure how many new players take the approach that I did - but I'll bet a few do: pick a martial main guild and a crafter sub-guild.  Why? To be able to mess around with multiple aspects of the game and get to know what the game offers.  Giving out a few recipes (3 to 5 != "a ton") would encourage these people to continue trying out different aspects of the game.  Your average Byn newbie is not going to join a GMH or somehow find someone to teach them trade secrets.  Why not give them a few recipes to help add flavor to their character and encourage them to be more than spar bots?  I hardly see how this equates to joining a GMH or giving them free money.  I'm not talking about the crafter end-game ... I'm talking about the newbie experience of first encountering crafting.  I'm not talking about merchants destined to make master-work swords, I'm talking about your average newbie who picks warrior or ranger plus a crafting subguild.  Maybe I'm a sofite.  Perhaps they should have a frustrating and annoying experience with the crafting part of the game that leaves a sour taste in their mouth.

Anyhoo, I'm talking in circles at this point.

[Gimfalisette]

Your average Byn newbie is not going to join a GMH or somehow find someone to teach them trade secrets.  Why not give them a few recipes to help add flavor to their character and encourage them to be more than spar bots?  I hardly see how this equates to joining a GMH or giving them free money.  I'm not talking about the crafter end-game ... I'm talking about the newbie experience of first encountering crafting.  I'm not talking about merchants destined to make master-work swords, I'm talking about your average newbie who picks warrior or ranger plus a crafting subguild.

Remembering my time as a newb (first PC was a merchant who went to work for Kadius), I didn't experience the recipes themselves as being the daunting part; rather, it was beginning to figure out what materials were craftable by themselves or in combination with other materials. I still don't see crafting recipes as a solution there--rather I think I'd like to see a "how to craft for beginners" guide or something of the like, which would cover how to find basic materials, how to experiment, and how to not spend all 1k starting coin in the search for recipes. Most noobs seem to want to start with analyze (I did) and work backwards, but someone else in this thread mentioned that's not necessarily the best technique for noobs. Analyze is really for players who already know what they're doing.

[Thunkkin]

Remembering my time as a newb (first PC was a merchant who went to work for Kadius), I didn't experience the recipes themselves as being the daunting part; rather, it was beginning to figure out what materials were craftable by themselves or in combination with other materials. I still don't see crafting recipes as a solution there--rather I think I'd like to see a "how to craft for beginners" guide or something of the like, which would cover how to find basic materials, how to experiment, and how to not spend all 1k starting coin in the search for recipes. Most noobs seem to want to start with analyze (I did) and work backwards, but someone else in this thread mentioned that's not necessarily the best technique for noobs. Analyze is really for players who already know what they're doing.

Hmm, that puts it better than I did.  I agree with Gimf.  Also, I depended entirely on analyze and it was very depressing and gave me the opinion that nothing much was craftable (I know better now, just remembering my newbie experience). 

[SMuz]

"how to craft for beginners" would help

But IMHO, I'm not really interested in joining a GMH. Heck, they're not interested in my character joining either. I don't want a full-time crafter. I want the crafting as a part of the character - like a thief who her makes her daily living sewing clothes, or an armorsmith who becomes a soldier. They're not professionals at it, not master crafters, just the average Amos with a job.

And as a player, I have no idea what the difference between 1.rock and 5.rock is. Can I make rings out of sandstone? Or do I need the little red rock or the big blocky rock? Do I buy all those cheap feathers and make earrings from them? My character should know. He's been doing it for a living. Which is why I'd be happy with recipes.. so newbies have a first step to figure out what they need to do. And so that casual crafters can just churn out a typical item as part of their character while waiting to prey on someone at night.

[FantasyWriter]

I wouldn't mind seeing two or three low value items being put into each of the crafting skills' help files.

Low value so that they will actually be fairly successful at making it from the beginning.

[Thunkkin]

Thank you Vanth.  <3

[DustMight]

THANK YOU!  Awesome!

[Gimfalisette]

Wow. That is awesome. Thank you.

[mansa]

This is fantastic!  Awesome.

*Unless there were not that many appropriate recipes.  If you would like to help, we need more recipes for clubmaking and ropemaking, and you can submit them as instructed here:
http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,32060.0.html

I think I have another crafting skill that only has 2 recipes in the help file.  Should I email you that?

[number13]

++-AWESOME--++

[Vanth]

This is fantastic!  Awesome.

*Unless there were not that many appropriate recipes.  If you would like to help, we need more recipes for clubmaking and ropemaking, and you can submit them as instructed here:
http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,32060.0.html

I think I have another crafting skill that only has 2 recipes in the help file.  Should I email you that?

No.  There is one skill that only uses 2 ingredients for any of its recipes, so I only did one recipe for each ingredient.

And then tentmaking has only 2 listed, but each of those can be made in multiple colors, I just figured it'd be kinda repetitive to list the same thing in multiple colors.

[mansa]

This is fantastic!  Awesome.

*Unless there were not that many appropriate recipes.  If you would like to help, we need more recipes for clubmaking and ropemaking, and you can submit them as instructed here:
http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,32060.0.html

I think I have another crafting skill that only has 2 recipes in the help file.  Should I email you that?

No.  There is one skill that only uses 2 ingredients for any of its recipes, so I only did one recipe for each ingredient.

And then tentmaking has only 2 listed, but each of those can be made in multiple colors, I just figured it'd be kinda repetitive to list the same thing in multiple colors.

Okay cool.   This is awesome!  Thanks Vanth!

[brytta.leofa]

If I weren't occupied, I'd be sorely tempted to make a merchant.  And I haven't been.

[SMuz]

Oh wow, thank you! Would be great if I could figure whether I use a saw for making a wooden sword, or a woodcrafting knife

Damn, now if only my character wasn't such a prick about crafting certain things that he could codedly do. Oh, well, I'll still get OOC pleasure from trying to figure out new recipes now, never knew that I could make a sword out of a log