Digging Clay in Tuluk

[Vanth]

I am thinking about implementing something that is like the clay-digging "job" in Tuluk, but a little bit different.  I would like feedback from anyone who has tried the clay-digging "job" on how they like it or how it could be improved.

[musashi]

I really wish folks had told me about the clay digging job with a few past characters, as I had no idea there was even a way to make money in the city without plying a crafting trade

But I think as it stands it's ok ... however, it would be cooler if you could craft with the clay as well.

[Tisiphone]

I selected "It would be cooler if I didn't have to provide a container for the clay," because the syntax for this job is already strange (I didn't even know this was a real job to be done until I saw it on the GDB), and I take it that one of the main purposes for jobs like this is helping newbies.

[Vanth]

Fixed that by adding an OOC note in the room description.  Hopefully it won't be too jarring for everyone else.

[Vanth]

BTW, everyone can vote twice on this poll, so pick your two favorite answers if more than one answer applies.

[Prince Prig]

I would vote, but considering that I've never tried this function, I can't say how much the pay is, and whether it's enough or too much/little. If you'll be adding craftable objects from clay, there should be a way to hold clay without a container in order to craft it (unless crafting the item includes/excludes the container object). And I'd vote that the skill stems from stonecrafting (I think that's the most comparable skill, unless there's going to be a whole new skill branch.

Honestly though, I have no idea how the thing works aside from speculations...so my votes don't count too much.

[number13]

Until I saw this thread, I thought the clay-digging was just flavor not an actual, implemented job-type thing.

[FantasyWriter]

me too, i never could figure out the syntax.

[Ourla]

I've tried it with several characters and gave it up just as quickly.  It's too hard to dig the clay itself out, and the amount of sid you get from doing it is nowhere near worth the time investment.  I'm also really glad you put the option on about crafting things out of clay, Vanth.  I was very surprised when I realized I couldn't, considering how much clay Tuluk uses for building and everyday implements. 

[Synthesis]

I've tried it with several characters and gave it up just as quickly.  It's too hard to dig the clay itself out, and the amount of sid you get from doing it is nowhere near worth the time investment.  I'm also really glad you put the option on about crafting things out of clay, Vanth.  I was very surprised when I realized I couldn't, considering how much clay Tuluk uses for building and everyday implements. 

I wonder if it's based on your foraging skill.  That in and of itself would prevent the "target demographic" (i.e. noobs) from using it effectively.

[Only He Stands There]

Having tried this a bit, my thoughts:

1) There's no investment by the player other than time, which is brutal. No stamina drain, no danger, no nothing but gradual accumulation of hunger/thirst, which - when you're in a city - is far lower than you would get by obsidian mining or anything else.

2) My PC has a decent forage skill (as far as I know), and would be better served slipping a bit out the gates, gathering up some branches, and slipping back in. It takes FAR too long to forage up enough clay to sell.

3) You're paid FAR too little for said clay. Granted, I know there's no danger whatsoever, and I wouldn't want as much as other methods like logging, but seriously, the time investment is brutal unless you spamforage.

4) Providing your own container is a breeze, since you get your container back.


Summed up - not worth the effort whatsoever at the current rates. 3-4 sid, tops, for around an IG hour's worth of work, no matter how little danger is involved?

[Clearsighted]

I didn't realize clay digging was possible, until now.

I think it'd be neat if alot of these jobs, like lumberjacking, spice sifting and sid mining, etc, were collated and made known as part of a newbie primer.

I honestly don't think it will affect the fabric of the gameworld, to have the syntax of these common, lowly professions known to all.

[number13]

I honestly don't think it will affect the fabric of the gameworld, to have the syntax of these common, lowly professions known to all.

Yes please.

[Moofassa]

I've been playing since 2003, and in all honesty, i didn't even know you could forage for clay in Tuluk.

[Only He Stands There]

I didn't, either. Syntax of things like this should be a) standardized and b) obvious. That's something I'd really, REALLY like to see in 2.Arm.

If you find a plant, it could be that 1) you have to get the plant, 2) you have to break the plant, 3) you have to pick something from the plant, 4) you have to get something from the plant, or 5) you can't interact with the plant at all. It's pretty confusing, as a newbie, not knowing which to do when something else worked 5 minutes ago.

[flurry]

I tried it, mostly about two real-life years ago, with one character.  I gave up on it pretty quickly, when I realized how many attempts it required for how little coin.

I generally feel like, in playing Armageddon, it's good form to emote every few commands, regardless of what you're doing.  (Others feel differently, I'm sure, and that's cool.)  I mention this only because clay digging seemed to require so, so many of the same command repeated over and over, that it felt very un-Armageddony to me. I couldn't bring myself to keep doing it, especially after seeing how much you get paid for it.

I could be mistaken, but I also think you don't find out how it pays until after you've filled up a container.

In any case, I liked the idea of this as a job, but I couldn't stick with it.

[Vanth]

I don't have any plans to make anything craftable from the clay.  It's not ruled out, it's just not on my slate of projects, which is already pretty full.

My main problem with that project would be the need for a kiln.  Kilns are expensive in and of themselves, and also expensive because they need a shitton of fuel to heat and labor to keep the fires stoked.  So I'd see kilns as being more likely to be the domain of large merchant organizations.  That still leaves the possibility of sun-baked/dried clay, which is of a lesser quality than fired pottery.

[Thunkkin]

>i
a lump of clay

>craft lump

You can craft a lump of clay into a clay snake.

>craft lump into snake

Rolling the clay vigorously between your hands, you craft a clay snake.

[My 2 sids]

Maybe instead of actually sculpting something the craft code could meerly "refine" the clay?  
Something like

> value lump
> a lump of clay seems to be worth 3 sids

> craft lump lump lump into refined block of clay

> value block
> a refined block of builder's clay seems to be worth 30 sids

[Halcyon]

Krathi only crafting?

Craft lump into unfired clay ashtray
cast <spell> unfired

[Synthesis]

Krathi only crafting?

Craft lump into unfired clay ashtray
cast <spell> unfired

Yeah, because a Tuluki-based operation with Krathi-only crafts would be -real- useful. 

[Sephiroto]

I have two items to discuss here.

First, on a good day of mining a PC can make between 100 and 200 sid without aid of a mount or a tent.  To compete, I'd like to see the rewards for digging clay raise somewhat.  Because of the cost of food and water in game I'd expect to get at least 20-30 'sid from a full day's work in the sun, even if they are in the shelter of the city.  I have not tried digging myself, but I know good and well that a PC can't live independantly off of less than 15-20 coins a day.

Secondly, Vanth expressed disinterest in making the crafting of clay an option, but hear me out here.  Anyone can try to shape clay.  I mean heck, kids do it in Art classes in highschools all over the country every semester.   Only the wealthy (Merchant Houses IC, or schools in the RL scenario) are able to afford kilns and fuel to bake clay into a finished product.  So my idea here is that the PC's are able to craft some simple, ambiguous things like bowls, vases, jars, etc., and then are able to sell them to a bulk merchant for marginally more than what is paid for raw claw.  The NPC dealer then glazes and bakes the pieces before delivering them to the taverns and stores in Tuluk.  Think of all the mugs and bottles that are broken on a regular basis at the taverns.  There can be little argument that there is a demand for these products.

Aside from being a tool for PC's to make a little bit of money, this will also serve as an RP tool to display the sort of the pride that Tuluki people have in their work and craftsmanship.  Think about a Tuluki citizen drinking ale in the Tembo's Tooth after a hard day's work in the clay pit.  Now think about that citizen knowing that even though they aren't wealthy, they provide an important service to their fellow citizens by carrying out their trade.

[Vanth]

Based on the feedback so far, I have added another poll option and made it so that you can change your votes.

[Vanth]

Vanth expressed disinterest in making the crafting of clay an option

Just to clarify, I'm not against making this an option.  I just don't have room for it on my to-do list right now.  Another staffer might be interested, or I might be interested at a later date.

[Tlaloc]

My main problem with that project would be the need for a kiln.  Kilns are expensive in and of themselves, and also expensive because they need a shitton of fuel to heat and labor to keep the fires stoked.  So I'd see kilns as being more likely to be the domain of large merchant organizations.  That still leaves the possibility of sun-baked/dried clay, which is of a lesser quality than fired pottery.

While Kilns are used in modern applications, the earliest and most primitive methods involved just sticking your clay sculpture in a campfire, and hoping for the best. I think a cool idea would be to add code which produces a "fired" piece depending on the size of a campfire, time spent firing, and the materials used to burn. Perhaps people with the "clay working" crafting skill at some point also gain the ability to make primitive pit kilns (provided that they have a shovel and a place to dig). Fill the pits with kindling, sawdust, dung, more sawdust, leaves, your pot, and stack branches all around, fire it up and away you go.

Sure, the firing pit might not save across a crash...but I think the addition would outweigh any weirdness that comes from that. Also, it could be played off that the pit "filled with sand", or "a dune covered it", or maybe the clay worker simply "covered it up so it wouldn't start a forest fire".

I could also see more advanced brick kilns perhaps offered for rent in the Red Sun Commons, which might output better items, or offer smoke firing or glazing techniques for more advanced clay-workers. It could also be a great use for sawdust and even a great reason to finally implement the mount-poop code (dung, afterall, is one of the best fuels for firing clay).

Anyway - these are just pie-in-the-sky ideas for when and if folks decide to expand on the idea.

[Majikal]

I would like to see clay digging become a bit more actively used in the RP of tuluk as is mining in allanak. The container thing isn't so big an inconvenience but fucking hell is the payoff vs time spent foraging pretty bad. Craftables from clay would also be rockin.

[Tisiphone]

Maybe, for that extra-weird flavour, the 'kiln' could just be a large sandy depression with a lens over it.

[brytta.leofa]

Maybe, for that extra-weird flavour, the 'kiln' could just be a large sandy depression with a lens over it.

Code Select Expand

100hp 52st 120mv> enter kiln
You enter a large sandy depression.
A Sand-Floored Kiln [Save] [Leave]
  The ground here is covered with a deep layer of fine white sand, mingled
with chalky dust that rises to hang in the air with each footfall.  Clay
objects have been set to bake in long lines beneath a gigantic glass disk
supported by pillars of sandstone.  A rag-tag array of slaves and commoners,
many dirty and mud-daubed, hurry in and out, laying their moist creations
under the glass lens before fleeing the fierce heat.
  A barakhan lizard is sleeping here, half-buried in the sand.
  A few unfinished clay plates lie here.
  A clay plate lies here.
  A few unfinished clay spoons lie here.
  A glazed, sun-blazoned clay jug lies here.
100hp 52st 120mv>
You suffer from the oppressive heat.
98hp 32st 111mv> drop unfinished
You drop an unfinished, glaze-dipped sun-blazoned clay jug.
98hp 32st 111mv>
You suffer from the oppressive heat.
96hp 12st 102mv> think (dazed and confused) 's real hot in here.
Feeling dazed and confused, you think,
  "'s real hot in here."
You suffer from the oppressive heat.
Your vision goes black.
94hp 0st 93mv>
You suffer from the oppressive heat.
92hp 0st 84mv>
You suffer from the oppressive heat.
90hp 0st 75mv> think But...but...this isn't Allanak!
You dream,
  "But...but...this isn't Allanak!"
You suffer from the oppressive heat.
88hp 0st 66mv>
You are hauled roughly to your feet.
Your eyes flutter open.
A sunburned half-elf slave leaves a sand-floored kiln, dragging you out to the music of hundreds of tiny birds.


[Tlaloc]

>You enter a large sandy depression.
>
>You think: "I better hurry..."
>
>The sun begins to move across the sky.
>
>You think: "Oh, shi.."
>
>A large glass lens focuses Suk-Krath's mighty rays upon you.
>You catch fire!
>
>You think: "I hate feckin' clay..."
>Your vision goes black.

[X-D]

I'd love if there was crafting for the clay, including a general craft for those that do not have a sub/main with any clay crafting recipes...craft clay clay into brick. craft brick brick brick brick brick into bundle of bricks.

up

offer bundle oversear

We pay twenty five coins for a bundle. (barter to complete deal)

Make it like 30% fail on bricks and 0-10 on bundles and clay reasonably easy to find. Nobody gets silly rich on the deal, allows for more RP then simply dig clay for 2 IC days then turn it in.

[Mood]

I'd love if there was crafting for the clay, including a general craft for those that do not have a sub/main with any clay crafting recipes...craft clay clay into brick. craft brick brick brick brick brick into bundle of bricks.

up

offer bundle oversear

We pay twenty five coins for a bundle. (barter to complete deal)

Make it like 30% fail on bricks and 0-10 on bundles and clay reasonably easy to find. Nobody gets silly rich on the deal, allows for more RP then simply dig clay for 2 IC days then turn it in.

How, exactly, does one fail 30% of the time to make a mudbrick? That's almost as bad as cooking.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Mudbricks have to be baked just right, and packed just right prior to baking. Otherwise, they crack and crumble. I'd trim 30 to 15, maybe, but mudbricks are not automatically.

[Sephiroto]

How, exactly, does one fail 30% of the time to make a mudbrick? That's almost as bad as cooking.

Air pockets trapped inside the clay cause anything baked in an oven to explode.  Air pockets are very hard to eliminate and occur in percentages of hand-made pottery produced even by professionals.

[X-D]

correct, IRL, mud bricks are not that easy to make and even pros have around 30% waste, specialy for sun baked kind. And 30% fail is FAR lower then cooking for most guilds. Besides, Nobody said you could not get tools to improve that.

[Vanth]

Thanks to everyone who voted (the poll is now closed) and contributed to the discussion.

For those of you who have actually used the clay pits, and also have experience with other jobs like logging and mining, can you quantify how much more clay digging would have to pay, in order to be a comparable job?

For example:
For every 100 sids I make logging/mining, I would only make __ sids when digging clay, for a comparable amount of time.

Keep in mind that logging and mining will always pay more, because they involve more danger and require tools to be effective.  But depending on the numbers you guys provide, I may be able to tweak the pay for clay digging (as well as my sekrit project).

[Doppelganger]

For jobs like that I would dance from minimal needs of a character in ale, water and travel cakes, so activity would provide a chance for survival without it becoming addictive.

But, since you insisit, 100 sids hunting = 50 sids mining = 50 sids logging = 35 sids logging when Ptar Ken is closed = 20 sids dung sweeping in Allanak = 15 sids digging clay in Tuluk.

[Semper]

...dung sweeping? That's also something new I didn't know about... how does that work?

[FantasyWriter]

...dung sweeping? That's also something new I didn't know about... how does that work?

Dito.

[Doppelganger]

...dung sweeping? That's also something new I didn't know about... how does that work?

*shrug* Jal knows.

It's purely virtual job, but I thought I'd mention its economical evaluation, just in case Vanth needs it for a sikrit project of hers.

[Vanth]

Um, so is the 30 sids claydigging: 100 sids mining ratio equally imaginary?

[Doppelganger]

I would call it realistic approximation.

10:3 logging to clay-digging ratio is real though. Once upon the time my character thought that this would be okay to dig clay instead of feeding halflings. He had like absolutely awesome wisdom, so he could not be wrong.

[SMuz]

Lol, I'd be surprised if they paid more for clay. I'm surprised that the glass prices are what they are.. but it's on par with the danger level.

[Vanth]

I also updated the clay buyer to pay somewhat better.  Also, the clay buyer now operates on 'offer' rather than 'give.'

[Archbaron]

Is there anything in the works right now to make clay digging more profitable via crafting or combining clay? I just really have to agree with spawnloser right now on the brutality of the time it takes to make any amount of money.

[spawnloser]

I said who what in the why now?  This is my first post on this thread.

[Archbaron]

I said who what in the why now?  This is my first post on this thread.

I apologize. I mentally merged this thread with the cotton picking one, but I think the issue still stands.

[Delstro]

I dug for clay for about 2 hours the other week. I didn't get a single clay item. Can it be based on something other than your forage skill?