Discussion of apartment re-keying

[Vanth]

This is where to discuss my announcement about keys changing.

[Taven]

I really like this. I think it's nice, and realistic, too.

Time to start renewing your collections, guys.

[Tisiphone]

So far, the idea sounds pretty awesome. Nenyuk re-keys their apartments every once in a while - at least the nicer ones.

Two things to look into:

1) Master keys. Perhaps there are keys that will work on apartments no matter how many times the lock is re-keyed. Maybe Nenyuk keeps these for their own use, or hands them to templars/nobles for whatever reason

2) Frequency of re-keying. Perhaps Nenyuk doesn't bother to re-key their low-rent apartments but once every two years, whereas the high-end ones get a new lock every month.

Finally, there should be some way for current renters to virtually get their new keys, if they're stuck inside the apartment.

[Delstro]

I definately like the ideas of templars getting master keys.

[Ammut]

It makes sense that apartment complexes would take this precaution.  If a landlord doesn't receive a key back from a renter IRL they usually replace the lock, sometimes even if they do receive the key back.

[Reiloth]

I definately like the ideas of templars getting master keys.

[Vanth]

2) Frequency of re-keying. Perhaps Nenyuk doesn't bother to re-key their low-rent apartments but once every two years, whereas the high-end ones get a new lock every month.

This probably won't ever be done more often than 2-3 times per RL year because it's a pain in the ass.

However, staff are tossing around some ideas for other ways to make key collections less useful.

[Archbaron]

Beautiful.

[My 2 sids]

Don't some items in game have a set "use by" date?   Is there any way to do that to keys?    That way all the Imms have to do is "reset" the landlord's keys  and  people who take up collections will eventually find nothing but dust on their keyring.

[Ourla]

I definately like the ideas of templars getting master keys.

[X-D]

To be honest, I don't see why you don't just put a timer on them so they just degrade over time. Apartment keys would not be master crafts anyway. Nenyuk would have to be constantly having them made so they would pick cheap materials and craftsmen. The keys don't degrade when given back to the manager because he/she tucks them into a drawer or pegboard rather then leaving them jostle about in a pack/pocket get buried in the bottem of somebodies chest with a few rocks and shells on top of it. Have the script simply run out after a short time, somewhere between 10 and 24  rl hours, course script stops while person is logged out with key on them. Problem solved and something you need do only once, unlike rekeying the apartments a few times a year.

[Delstro]

Most of them are made out of sandstone anyway, last I checked.
Sandstone is not exactly damage proof.

[Clearsighted]

I definately like the ideas of templars getting master keys.

I don't.

[Cerelum]

I definately like the ideas of templars getting master keys.

I don't.

NEWSFLASH:  Templars rule the cities, they ALLOW the landlord to own and operate that building.  You honestly think the landlord wouldn't give anything the Templars asked of him?  What's he gonna say, "No way Chosen Lord/Lord Templar, I'm not giving you my key."

JaRoD

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I definately like the ideas of templars getting master keys.

I don't.

Templars don't need master keys. They come in and break down the door, or some other method. No master keys.

I also say that apartment keys could degrade. Nothing wrong with that.

[Gimfalisette]

I definately like the ideas of templars getting master keys.

I don't.

NEWSFLASH:  Templars rule the cities, they ALLOW the landlord to own and operate that building.  You honestly think the landlord wouldn't give anything the Templars asked of him?  What's he gonna say, "No way Chosen Lord/Lord Templar, I'm not giving you my key."

JaRoD

This is what the "wish all" command is for. Templars do not need sets of master keys. That's just asking for twinkery to happen.

[Salt Merchant]

NEWSFLASH:  Templars rule the cities, they ALLOW the landlord to own and operate that building.  You honestly think the landlord wouldn't give anything the Templars asked of him?  What's he gonna say, "No way Chosen Lord/Lord Templar, I'm not giving you my key."

JaRoD

I'd say that, in practical terms, the law has enough of an upper hand in the cities without having templars periodically scour apartments and busting Amos X for having one sad smoke in his crappy room.

Not to mention appropriating anything of interest (i.e. unique) or value (commoners undeserving). Burglars wouldn't even have a chance with the new set of "thieves".

[Tisiphone]

I'm on the fence. On the one hand, templars can get into apartments anyway. On the other, half the time, 'tis too late by the time they can, because the mark has logged out/left/teleported like the filthy magicker he is.

[brytta.leofa]

Templars do have half-giants for that.  But having a minion periodicaly snoop through apartments might be... well, that's what burglars are for, I s'pose.

[Delstro]

Seriously. That's petty. Very petty for a templar to go through everyone's room.

I trust the templars. Every one of them.

I like the idea.

[Tisiphone]

Seriously. That's petty. Very petty for a templar to go through everyone's room.

I trust the templars. Every one of them.

I like the idea.

Besides, if they were going to go through everyone's rooms, they'd just do it anyway.

[Synthesis]

Seriously. That's petty. Very petty for a templar to go through everyone's room.

I trust the templars. Every one of them.

I like the idea.

It's not about the templars going through everybody's room.

It's about pickpockets getting ahold of that master key when the templar forgets to close his pack.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

No.

It's about both, for me.

No master key if you are not a Nenyuk.

[Salt Merchant]

Seriously. That's petty. Very petty for a templar to go through everyone's room.

I trust the templars. Every one of them.

I like the idea.

Besides, if they were going to go through everyone's rooms, they'd just do it anyway.

No, they wouldn't, because doing so currently requires staff support, and I can't see the staff hovering around for all the time it would take as the templar enters each apartment in turn for no better reason than to just have a casual look.

EDIT: Or even approving of the templar doing so for that matter.

[Melody]

Seriously. That's petty. Very petty for a templar to go through everyone's room.

I trust the templars. Every one of them.

I like the idea.

Besides, if they were going to go through everyone's rooms, they'd just do it anyway.

No, they wouldn't, because doing so currently requires staff support, and I can't see the staff hovering around for all the time it would take as the templar enters each apartment in turn for no better reason than to just have a casual look.

If it is just for a casual look, then the templar should not have entered it. Why would templars stoop so low as to look over every dirty, filthy commoner's apartment? (maybe it is a fetish)

Vote for no master key unless it is a Nenyuki!

After all, Nenyuk is decidedly neutral in politics. Imagine being caught between two templars! If one templar wants to check the apartment that another templar rented out for his aide/servant/guards and another templar finds out....

[Salt Merchant]

If it is just for a casual look, then the templar should not have entered it. Why would templars stoop so low as to look over every dirty, filthy commoner's apartment? (maybe it is a fetish)

It'd be easy enough to invent a pretext.

think So, soldier Xyzzy saw a suspicious looking character emerging from apartment building X.
think No doubt there's some contraband hidden in there.
think I'm going in.

[Dar]

I'd love master keys. Th first things I'd do is find out who has it, pop them/rob them, and take their key.

[Only He Stands There]

Or, y'know, the doorguard could just hand a templar a master key when he enters and take it when he leaves.

Y'know, just like they do for everyone else, only with a master key instead of a normal key.

[FantasyWriter]

I love the change!

Also, I think OHST's idea would be a great addition.

[Lizzie]

Hell no on master keys for anyone but Nenyuk. Templars don't have master keys for GMH estates, they don't have keys to noble estates, and they don't have keys to each others' lockboxes. What makes them have ANY need to permanently possess master keys to Nenyuk owned-and-operated buildings? Templars don't even have keys to back rooms in public taverns. They have to tell the bartender to open it for them (which they will of COURSE do..just like any self-respecting life-loving Nenyuk would do for a templar asking to be let into a specific apartment for a specific reason).

But these apartments would no longer have value to Nenyuk, if Templars had the master key. Because then the Templars could rent them for themselves and kick out the tenants. That doesn't mean they will. But they could. And that is VERY bad for business.

[Only He Stands There]

If a Templar shows up and asks to search any of the above, the commoners comply, almost uniformly. The reason they DON'T have said master keys is because, well, 1) no such master keys exist in most cases, and 2) said keys would fall into the wrong hands too easily in the cases of pickpockets/templar corpse-looters/etc.

Templars SHOULD be able to go wherever the hell they want, whenever the hell they want, with whatever shitty reason they feel like giving, save for perhaps Blue robes raiding noble houses. If they piss off a GMH head in the process, so be it, and they'll deal with the consequences later -- I just doubt that a GMH head would want to deal with the consequences of pissing off a blue robe right then and there.

[Only He Stands There]

And re: being able to rent out the rooms themselves... of course they could. They can, right now. All it takes is them grabbing the current apartment owner by the throat, saying "give me your key, it's mine now" and proceeding to move in. But do they? Nah.

[Melody]

If they piss off a GMH head in the process, so be it, and they'll deal with the consequences later -- I just doubt that a GMH head would want to deal with the consequences of pissing off a blue robe right then and there.

There are Red Robes and Tek forbid, Black Robes who might be in the Merchant's pocket. If the big templars are not available, there are many other Blue Robes. Appearances should be kept. Just because templars can search and kill people randomly does not mean it is a good idea for them to do so. They can get into apartment easily, but they should not get keys to all apartments. Staffs are only a wish away.

[Bebop]

Thank God.  I love you Vanth.

[eska]

Or, y'know, the doorguard could just hand a templar a master key when he enters and take it when he leaves.

Y'know, just like they do for everyone else, only with a master key instead of a normal key.

I don't think this can hold a pickpocket from stealing the key after the templar gets it from the doorguard. I'm against the idea of templars having the master key.

[Vanth]

There is no coded way to have or create a master key.  Can we end that derail, please?

[Vanth]

Please do not post IC identifying information about your character here.  Thanks.

[FantasyWriter]

Oh, and in case I forgot to mention...

All the keys are identical in appearance now.   Kiss

LMAO!!! Good luck all you key collectors out there!

[Lakota]

Oh, and in case I forgot to mention...

All the keys are identical in appearance now.   Kiss

LMAO!!! Good luck all you key collectors out there!

This makes no sense to me. Sounds more like it was created to be an ooc annoyance.

[FantasyWriter]

I like it... most keys to a real life apartment building are next to identical save the grooves cut into them.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Yep, they are.

[Lakota]

I like it... most keys to a real life apartment building are next to identical save the grooves cut into them.

Then perhaps code should be implemented to reflect the differences in the number of grooves and their spacing?

Currently there is no way to discern which key goes where, short of trying every known lock in every known apartment. Silly and not needed.

[FantasyWriter]

Use a keyring.

[Lakota]

Use a keyring.

My commoner burglar would look totally inconspicuous holding a keyring, you're right.

[Vanth]

Currently there is no way to discern which key goes where, short of trying every known lock in every known apartment. Silly and not needed.

Not silly at all.  It makes IC sense to me.

You loot the corpse of some random stranger who has a key.  Of course you have no idea what it goes to, nor should you have any clue.  You have to do the random trial method.
...or...
You follow a mark around for a few days and find out where they live.  Then you pickpocket their key/kill them for their key.
...or...
You now have two keys and you know what they open.  You keep the key to apartmentA in your boot, and the key to apartmentB in your belt pouch.

The only thing this prevents is people automagickally knowing what key opens which apartment because they rented that apartment 5 characters ago.  And it might be a slight inconvenience for people who rent more than one apartment.

[Sephiroto]

I like it.  Thank you.

[Dar]

Currently there is no way to discern which key goes where, short of trying every known lock in every known apartment. Silly and not needed.

Not silly at all.  It makes IC sense to me.

You loot the corpse of some random stranger who has a key.  Of course you have no idea what it goes to, nor should you have any clue.  You have to do the random trial method.
...or...
You follow a mark around for a few days and find out where they live.  Then you pickpocket their key/kill them for their key.
...or...
You now have two keys and you know what they open.  You keep the key to apartmentA in your boot, and the key to apartmentB in your belt pouch.

The only thing this prevents is people automagickally knowing what key opens which apartment because they rented that apartment 5 characters ago.  And it might be a slight inconvenience for people who rent more than one apartment.

put key keyring
put 2.key keyring
put 10.key keyring

get keyring pack
unlock door.

Who cares if they look the same, just get 'every' key from every apartment. You cant miss!

[Xio]

If you are going to make all the keys identical, which i think is all types of unnecessarily annoying, should atleast allow people to snatch notches onto them or shapes, something to them them apart.

[Nyr]

If you are going to make all the keys identical, which i think is all types of unnecessarily annoying, should atleast allow people to snatch notches onto them or shapes, something to them them apart.

I'd like to discover what is believed to be unnecessarily annoying about each key being identical.

[mansa]

If you are going to make all the keys identical, which i think is all types of unnecessarily annoying, should atleast allow people to snatch notches onto them or shapes, something to them them apart.

I'd like to discover what is believed to be unnecessarily annoying about each key being identical.

Why making every apartment key identical to every other apartment key is annoying

It's not realistic.
  A) In real life, though keys may look similar, the number of teeth on the keys aren't.  With an observant and watchful eye, you can tell which keys go to which lock.
  B) Every single apartment complex I've lived at had a different brand a key that worked on the lock, making the whole shape of the key different.
  C) I can't tell if my key to the upstairs room, which has the same description as my key to the downstairs room, when we the players cannot physically change or mark items in the game, for our own reminders, whereas in Real Life I can draw / mark / sticker / tie a ribbon / use a different ring around the key that I use the most.

If all apartment complexes in the known world had different key short-descriptions, but the apartments inside had similar ones, it would lessen some of our discomfort.
If keyrings were sold in Kadius shops instead of from Kadius-Only PCs, that would also lessen some of our discomfort.

[My 2 sids]

Obvously every key is still different (and would look different for your PC) because only one key works with only one lock.    Further, keyrings -- PCs who have have more than one key can get keyring.


The only annoying thing is that the player can't tell the difference.  To which, why does the player need to see how the keys are different? 

[Lakota]

Why making every apartment key identical to every other apartment key is annoying

It's not realistic.
  A) In real life, though keys may look similar, the number of teeth on the keys aren't.  With an observant and watchful eye, you can tell which keys go to which lock.
  B) Every single apartment complex I've lived at had a different brand a key that worked on the lock, making the whole shape of the key different.
  C) I can't tell if my key to the upstairs room, which has the same description as my key to the downstairs room, when we the players cannot physically change or mark items in the game, for our own reminders, whereas in Real Life I can draw / mark / sticker / tie a ribbon / use a different ring around the key that I use the most.

If all apartment complexes in the known world had different key short-descriptions, but the apartments inside had similar ones, it would lessen some of our discomfort.
If keyrings were sold in Kadius shops instead of from Kadius-Only PCs, that would also lessen some of our discomfort.

Thank you mansa. I concur.

[Zoan]

By reading this thread you can tell who the shadies are.

[Lakota]

By reading this thread you can tell who the shadies are.

Incorrect.

[Angela Christine]

Every furred ox looks the same, every spiral carved jasper incense burner looks the same, every key looks the same.  Somewhat unrealistic, occasionally inconvenient, but not a deal breaker.  Wait, will every key look the same, or just every Nenyeuk apartment key look the same?  There are some pretty fancy and unique clan keys out there, and you wouldn't really expect a huge gate to take the same kind of key as an apartment door.  On the other hand, it isn't that unusual for a management company to use the same kind of lock/key in all of their properties.  (The place where I live now does this, when you move out your lock is removed, bagged, and sent to head office, and replaced with another previously used lock from one of their other recently vacated properties.  That way the locks get changed every time the tenant changes, but they don't actually have to buy new locks all the time.)  It would be a shame to lose some of the special and unique clan keys.


On a related note, will all locks be periodically replaced now, or just Nenyuek apartments?   Obtaining a key to a clan compound, or to something inside the compound, is hard to do.  On the other hand, if a door inside a clan compound is locked it is usually to a room where valuable stuff, or valuable people, is kept safe.  So a wealthy clan might be pretty likely to replace/rekey a lock to an important room if a key becomes unaccounted for.


It would be nice if key rings were easier to get.  It isn't like they need to be fancy or complicated, a loop of cord or a lanyard could work just fine for a ghetto key ring.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Only keys to rentable rooms will be identical. Keys for clan compounds and other private holdings will remain the same.