Job Opportunities Throughout the Known World

[KIA]

I'd like to see a slight increase in the coins (I mean very slight) made from independent jobs. I think that spice should sell for a couple coins more in Red Storm, and maybe see the same increase for tailored goods there, at the Sand Lord's warehouse. Lumber in the north could afford to sell for five more coins a log, and poles and planks one or two coins. Also, there should be a merchant that will buy logs and poles and planks in Allanak, as well as a place in Tuluk that buys obsidian. This would encourage travel and trade between the two areas, and we might see more action along the roads because of it.  Mining too, is a great option, and perhaps large chunks could be upped five coins and small chunks two.

They are slight increases, and it makes sense for the south to want wood while the north would want obsidian. Since there is a truce, it seems likely that this kind of thing would manifest, though I understand that the staff may want to see players organize it into the world rather than just set up shops.

Another place that I thought might buy wood is a certain lumber town that may or may not be IC knowledge. But that would be a cool place to add a tavern and set up a couple more shops to encourage fringe populations there. We certainly have the player base to do this, and I think it would bring some delightful opportunities into the game.

Thoughts?

If there were also something to do around the farms that surround Allanak, perhaps there would be a small influx of players into these far off places and make them a viable alternative to the major city centers, while reducing the time played alone, solo-RPing.

[tortall]

No. This is a bad idea. It was already WAY too easy to make money everywhere. Commoners should have less money.

[musashi]

I don't know quite how it should be fixed, but the economy always seemed a little off to me in general.

I don't buy in on the whole "commoners should be dirt poor" concept myself, because I'm of the mind that PC's are always going to be the exceptions that shine brighter than the NPCs around them ... I don't think many people want to play grebbing beggers who starve while the nobility sip tea and watch. We have swarms of NPC's that fill that role.

I just wish that the ways to go about making money were a bit more diverse, but maybe it'll have to wait until 2.arm.

[Synthesis]

There are places that will buy logs, poles, and planks down south.

There are places that will buy raw obsidian up north.

Make it happen.

[tortall]

I don't know quite how it should be fixed, but the economy always seemed a little off to me in general.

I don't buy in on the whole "commoners should be dirt poor" concept myself, because I'm of the mind that PC's are always going to be the exceptions that shine brighter than the NPCs around them ... I don't think many people want to play grebbing beggers who starve while the nobility sip tea and watch. We have swarms of NPC's that fill that role.

I just wish that the ways to go about making money were a bit more diverse, but maybe it'll have to wait until 2.arm.

Quite frankly, it is far too easy, with staying ic fully, to make far more than a noble as a commoner, unless you join a House and can't make shit. That is the problem I see.

[Synthesis]

I don't know quite how it should be fixed, but the economy always seemed a little off to me in general.

I don't buy in on the whole "commoners should be dirt poor" concept myself, because I'm of the mind that PC's are always going to be the exceptions that shine brighter than the NPCs around them ... I don't think many people want to play grebbing beggers who starve while the nobility sip tea and watch. We have swarms of NPC's that fill that role.

I just wish that the ways to go about making money were a bit more diverse, but maybe it'll have to wait until 2.arm.

Quite frankly, it is far too easy, with staying ic fully, to make far more than a noble as a commoner, unless you join a House and can't make shit. That is the problem I see.

Yeah...which means commoners end up dying with 100,000 'sid in the bank, whereas nobles end up storing with 0.  I'm not sure what the problem is here.

[KIA]

I don't know quite how it should be fixed, but the economy always seemed a little off to me in general.

I don't buy in on the whole "commoners should be dirt poor" concept myself, because I'm of the mind that PC's are always going to be the exceptions that shine brighter than the NPCs around them ... I don't think many people want to play grebbing beggers who starve while the nobility sip tea and watch. We have swarms of NPC's that fill that role.

I just wish that the ways to go about making money were a bit more diverse, but maybe it'll have to wait until 2.arm.

Quite frankly, it is far too easy, with staying ic fully, to make far more than a noble as a commoner, unless you join a House and can't make shit. That is the problem I see.

I disagree with this. There are ways to make money, but the people who know how to play an indy commoner in the manner in which they will get rich are NOT the majority, tortall, and it is impossible to do this without a lot of dedication to the task of making money. This comes at the expense of interaction, a lot of times.

My point is to stimulate the economy and give the intensives for more of these roles to exist. It would also have positive consequences for the structure of commoner society, because of the SLIGHT increase in money, and activity in the fringe locations.

I understand your perception of money making, being that I know several ways to do this myself. This is not quite the point. These 'methods' are not viable if you're role playing well, if your focus is interaction and you are unwilling to give extensive time to toughing it out solo. A life of crime and questionable activity may too be very profitable. That's not the type of thing I'm discussing here, however.

[Halcyon]

I'd like to see a slight increase in the coins (I mean very slight) made from independent jobs. I think that spice should sell for a couple coins more in Red Storm, and maybe see the same increase for tailored goods there, at the Sand Lord's warehouse. Lumber in the north could afford to sell for five more coins a log, and poles and planks one or two coins. Also, there should be a merchant that will buy logs and poles and planks in Allanak, as well as a place in Tuluk that buys obsidian. This would encourage travel and trade between the two areas, and we might see more action along the roads because of it.  Mining too, is a great option, and perhaps large chunks could be upped five coins and small chunks two.

They are slight increases, and it makes sense for the south to want wood while the north would want obsidian. Since there is a truce, it seems likely that this kind of thing would manifest, though I understand that the staff may want to see players organize it into the world rather than just set up shops.

Another place that I thought might buy wood is a certain lumber town that may or may not be IC knowledge. But that would be a cool place to add a tavern and set up a couple more shops to encourage fringe populations there. We certainly have the player base to do this, and I think it would bring some delightful opportunities into the game.

Thoughts?

If there were also something to do around the farms that surround Allanak, perhaps there would be a small influx of players into these far off places and make them a viable alternative to the major city centers, while reducing the time played alone, solo-RPing.

I suspect this would really only change matters for people who don't want to talk to other players, or haul large volumes of materials around.  Player merchants will already buy materials for more than the pc shops will.  Sure, it can be a little work to hook up with people, but the reward for doing so already exists.

[Gunnerblaster]

I was once told that the difference between a Noble and a Commoner is that:

A Noble is a noble because their money makes money, without work. (Or something to that affect)
A Commoner is a commoner because they go out and make their own, with work.

I would definitely like to see more shops opened up in the surrounding villages of Allanak.am

When joe and smoe fill up all the stores in Allanak with random crap, Amos would have to travel to one of the surrounding villages to make a sell - Even if at a cheaper price. Oh, dusk falls. Might as well hang out in town at the local tavern. Yay! New mini-city!

[KIA]

I would definitely like to see more shops opened up in the surrounding villages of Allanak.am

When joe and smoe fill up all the stores in Allanak with random crap, Amos would have to travel to one of the surrounding villages to make a sell - Even if at a cheaper price. Oh, dusk falls. Might as well hang out in town at the local tavern. Yay! New mini-city!

Definitely. I love those little out of the way taverns, and the people you meet there once in a while are often very interesting. Great play evolves out of these encounters, which are by far too few. Gunnerblaster understands what I'm trying to get at I think.

[Melody]

I disagree with this. There are ways to make money, but the people who know how to play an indy commoner in the manner in which they will get rich are NOT the majority, tortall, and it is impossible to do this without a lot of dedication to the task of making money. This comes at the expense of interaction, a lot of times.

Whereas I agree, to some extent, I do have clanned commoner characters who are /not/ merchants, couldn't craft for shit, and got tons of interactions, never step out of their respective city and make enough sids to have over five digits in the bank always despite my spending sprees. I always liked bribery and blackmail...

I think it is a matter that some people are not aware that some options and choices are available and can be done. It's nice to have a mentor ic. Get those lessons, both for ic growth and learning more about arm oocly through the experience.

[My 2 sids]

First, nobles are nobles because of their blood -- it doesn't matter how much money they have (or how much money/power the GMH have)


I think the economy is "off" because it's not PC based.  The majority of PCs (nobles/ merchants/ commoners) are spending money A) at coded shops  or B) on "information". 

Also, many of those "rich" independent PCs are travelers, except they often travel by themselves.   ICly, there should be no independent merchants and travelers -- a dangerous world will simply not allow it.

Code-wise I don't think there is much that can be changed to make things right, it has to come from role-play. 

If some independent traveler, decked in sids, comes into town by themselves IMMEDIATELY people should think gemmer or something else to IC explain by some lone person would dare leave the city perimeter (have to assume most hunters don't travel more than half a day from the protection of the city)

If there is an independent crafter/ merchant about --> treat them as such, don't go hiring them for espionage.

The relationship between GMH and independents needs to be realistic.   There are thousands of crafters and merchants in the city -- plenty of them don't work for a GMH.  The idea that a GMH would feel "threatened" by one lowly PC merchant is kind of like saying McDonald's should feel threatened by some 15-seat little restaurant.   

HOWEVER, if some PC starts throwing around real money (like hiring spies of their own, getting too much mouth for their own good) higher-ups should take notice.  Zanthas is set up as a very class-oriented society.  Someone who has enough sids to have "power"... that's a threat to Noble houses, GMH, and templarate.

Most clans need to crack-down on moonlighting.   OOCly it takes jobs away from other PCs   ICly it means your worker isn't giving 100% -- they may not be life-time work terms any more, but they're still 24/7 jobs when employed.

[AmandaGreathouse]

First, nobles are nobles because of their blood -- it doesn't matter how much money they have (or how much money/power the GMH have)

This is definitely true.

I think the economy is "off" because it's not PC based.  The majority of PCs (nobles/ merchants/ commoners) are spending money A) at coded shops  or B) on "information".

This is more flexible. It really depends on the GMH pcs available nearby. Sorry, those <item> are more than twice worth in a shop, why would my character want to pay more and wait tons longer just to highlight the differences between PCs and NPCs? I thought you were supposed to try and treat both of them the same?

(The exception to this is indies. They've been much nicer on deals than GMH members available, in my admitedly very limited experience)

Code-wise I don't think there is much that can be changed to make things right, it has to come from role-play.

Codewise, I think there is plenty that could be done to change it. But it would hardly be worth the timesink for an entire overhaul of the economy (and most likely all the coding behind it, and the costs associated with every item in the world). That's why I'm looking forward to Arm 2. The economy there seems very very promising.

If some independent traveler, decked in sids, comes into town by themselves IMMEDIATELY people should think gemmer or something else to IC explain by some lone person would dare leave the city perimeter (have to assume most hunters don't travel more than half a day from the protection of the city)

Not fair. For all you know, they could be a tribal, or be tied up in some tribal business. While it may not be as logical in Allanak (never played there), it seems plenty logical for Tuluk. To automatically expect people to shun them seems a bit too harsh, really. I mean, why would they shun them?

The relationship between GMH and independents needs to be realistic.   There are thousands of crafters and merchants in the city -- plenty of them don't work for a GMH.  The idea that a GMH would feel "threatened" by one lowly PC merchant is kind of like saying McDonald's should feel threatened by some 15-seat little restaurant.

This... my God... THIS. Seriously.

HOWEVER, if some PC starts throwing around real money (like hiring spies of their own, getting too much mouth for their own good) higher-ups should take notice.  Zanthas is set up as a very class-oriented society.  Someone who has enough sids to have "power"... that's a threat to Noble houses, GMH, and templarate.

Within limits. I mean, it's a completely different situation with each and every one. Some of them really may not be worth the sid.
And, keep in mind, it's much better not to just up and off people. Lots of fun can come from these fucked up little situations when they do arise.

Most clans need to crack-down on moonlighting.   OOCly it takes jobs away from other PCs   ICly it means your worker isn't giving 100% -- they may not be life-time work terms any more, but they're still 24/7 jobs when employed.

This, but within reason.

Seriously, many of the clans have really, really shitty pay. I think that the pay should be upped if you're killing all their other chances to make up for it.

I don't buy in on the whole "commoners should be dirt poor" concept myself, because I'm of the mind that PC's are always going to be the exceptions that shine brighter than the NPCs around them ... I don't think many people want to play grebbing beggers who starve while the nobility sip tea and watch. We have swarms of NPC's that fill that role.

This. Especially with merchant characters. Sorry, I don't play a merchant when I want to play a dirty beggar, I play a merchant when I want to play a talented, intelligent craftswoman who has a good insight into markets, profits, society as a whole, and a good aptitude for working the above to her greatest advantage.

If I wanted to play some filthy beggar, I'd play a pickpocket. If I wanted to play a straight-up grebber, I'd play a ranger.

If the class you're playing is geared toward making coin and you aren't striving towards the same end, that's cool. I'm not one to say people are doing things wrong (and I've always been for a skill-based system, myself), but making it out like indies who make a chunk of coin are twinking assholes or have it too easy is a highly skewed perception.

I've played several people who were independent and had hirelings, none of them have ever topped about 1,500 sid in the bank. Nothing wrong if you have.

I don't see the people who say they've played indie merchants with 50,000+ sid in the bank. I don't. Maybe if you're -very- long lived and spend a -lot- of time working and travelling. Maybe.

I suspect this would really only change matters for people who don't want to talk to other players, or haul large volumes of materials around.  Player merchants will already buy materials for more than the pc shops will.  Sure, it can be a little work to hook up with people, but the reward for doing so already exists.

This. Although those players should, rightfully, be doing so with subterfuge and not one-upping the shops by much, for fear of stepping on bigger, more powerful toes.

No. This is a bad idea. It was already WAY too easy to make money everywhere. Commoners should have less money.

Not so much. It really depends on how much metagaming people do. Sure, it's easy to bring in five swords of doom right after reboot and clear out -all- the coin the shop has, and clear out -all- the sell spots for it, but then what happens to the rest of the people looking to sell them?

Also, it is usually easy to make coin with a skilled character, but due to the 'all-or-nothing' system arm has, it's very difficult to survive at the beginning without tons of skill-grinding, and the last thing I would want to do is increase that. There can always be the arguement to join a house, but until the house system is fixed (merchant houses -and- noble houses), there isn't really too much that can be done at times.

(for example, the off-peaker who never runs into a rep for a GMH that they have complimentary skills to join up with, or the GMH that wants a newbie character to have a mount, or the -vast- differences in pay within GMHs. Sorry, but certain ranks of a certain clan... they get shit on when it comes to profit. They make about half enough to rent an apartment and they are the ones bringing in all of the vaunted steady supply of food and water, plus all of the other things that the people with the perks in the clan use)

Seems to me like clans -and- the economy are broken. Sure, it's not going to fix everything to pile more money on the nobility and the shoulders of the GMH's, but, short of retooling the entire economy, as well as the entire crafting system, that seems the easiest, most logical way to help the situation. Is it gonna make indies less rich? No. Will it make joining a clan more appealing? Yes. Will it give nobles the edge on indies (coinwise)? Yes. Will it (unlike shitting down commoners money even more, or making profits of commoners less, or making crafting even more difficult) encourage skill grind or spamcrafting? No.

Seems like the all-round fix to me.

Also, in places like Tuluk, I would think it should be more common to see people in silk, simply because it's more common there. Just like I would think that nobles in Allanak would likely look for more clothing with wooden buttons, wooden jewelry, and etc, simply because it's rarer there.

[Lizzie]

2sids wrote:

The relationship between GMH and independents needs to be realistic.   There are thousands of crafters and merchants in the city -- plenty of them don't work for a GMH.  The idea that a GMH would feel "threatened" by one lowly PC merchant is kind of like saying McDonald's should feel threatened by some 15-seat little restaurant.   

HOWEVER, if some PC starts throwing around real money (like hiring spies of their own, getting too much mouth for their own good) higher-ups should take notice.  Zanthas is set up as a very class-oriented society.  Someone who has enough sids to have "power"... that's a threat to Noble houses, GMH, and templarate.

Most clans need to crack-down on moonlighting.   OOCly it takes jobs away from other PCs   ICly it means your worker isn't giving 100% -- they may not be life-time work terms any more, but they're still 24/7 jobs when employed.

There's a huge side to this missing.

There are independent crafters who make their fortunes NOT selling to PCs, but rather, selling to the GMH NPC merchant in the GMH shops. This isn't the same as some rinky dink independent merchant selling a few rings to a guy at the bar. These people are making THOUSANDS of sids every RL week. In the meantime, employees of those houses don't get paid that in a month, *plus* the clan restrictions forbid them from selling to their own house.

Clans -definitely- need to crack down on moonlighting - if you are a crafter, eating my food, drinking my water, living in my barracks, with the protection of my hunters on escort, then you damned well not EVER be caught selling so much as a single strand of grass to ANYONE without my house making a profit off of it. Unfortunately, other PC leaders don't feel the same way...and because there's no uniformity, there are more exceptions to the rule than there are people abiding by the rule. And so the rule is pretty much unenforceable. Cause if you aren't willing to abide by my rules and I kick you out, who cares? You can still make more than I make being independent, or work for the other house, who will let you go sid mining any time you like (or pretend they don't notice because they don't want to bother trying to enforce the rule).

I can't tell you how many PCs who actually reject the notion of working for a Greater Merchant House, because they *gasp* aren't allowed to sell their silk clothing to the silk-merchant they work for, who already pays them with food, clothing, water, shelter, protection, salary, commission, and bonuses.

God forbid a merchant house be allowed to -act- like a merchant house, and you get half the game rejecting the idea of working for you. But they're all to happy to take the sids of your non-animated NPC merchant, because that merchant NPC doesn't know the difference to tell you to bugger off, that you've already made 10,000 sids off him this month, and he aint giving you another sid til you start buying shit.

You want GMHs to be "realistic," then you'll have no problem with the GMH merchant houses refusing to buy from independents who aren't buying from them.

[Cutthroat]

You want GMHs to be "realistic," then you'll have no problem with the GMH merchant houses refusing to buy from independents who aren't buying from them.

Here's an interesting idea I just thought of...

... make it, either now or for Arm2, that the great merchant houses (or Arm2 equivalents) refuse to trade their coins for items. Make this happen immediately (i.e., merchants always refuse such a trade) or eventually (after a certain number of coins has been traded to the seller in a session, which would ideally last a while [perhaps an IG day]).

No longer will you be able to walk into the GMH shop with your crafted spear or shirt, type 'offer spear' or 'offer shirt' and then get your coins, and walk out with a hefty sack.

Now you'll have to trade that spear or shirt in for something of similar value at that GMH shop, or go to some rinky dink weapon stall or clothing stall and sell it there for coins. Coins that that rinky dink weapons and clothing stalls don't have much of, so, you're not going to get as great deal on it. But them's the breaks.

I think it is this that would work to establish that feeling of there being what is essentially a monopoly that doesn't even have to compete with the supposedly much crappier alternative of independents, and then you would see more crafters seeking to join a GMH just like an ambitious high school senior IRL seeks a seat in a top university.

[My 2 sids]

hmm...  you all are correct about GMH not wanting to buy...  but, there should always be NPCs willing to buy items.  Maybe give a few random NPC's money to perchase items (they don't do anything with the items persay, it's more for the economy effect)

Those NPCs in the market might be looking for tools, NPCs in the merchant areas might be looking for finer items, maybe an NPC beside a tenet building is even looking to pick up some fast food for dinner.



OH!   

Imms, how about allocating a few sids to house aides -- the aides can then go and perchase items from crafters.   ICly it would be like house workers going over to their co-worker (aide) and saying, "Here are some sids, can you pick something up for me when you're out?" 

It would promote role-play and interaction
It would give aides more to do than bar-sit
It would be a way to realistically oversee the sids flowing in the economy

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

You want GMHs to be "realistic," then you'll have no problem with the GMH merchant houses refusing to buy from independents who aren't buying from them.

Here's an interesting idea I just thought of...

... make it, either now or for Arm2, that the great merchant houses (or Arm2 equivalents) refuse to trade their coins for items. Make this happen immediately (i.e., merchants always refuse such a trade) or eventually (after a certain number of coins has been traded to the seller in a session, which would ideally last a while [perhaps an IG day]).

No longer will you be able to walk into the GMH shop with your crafted spear or shirt, type 'offer spear' or 'offer shirt' and then get your coins, and walk out with a hefty sack.

Now you'll have to trade that spear or shirt in for something of similar value at that GMH shop, or go to some rinky dink weapon stall or clothing stall and sell it there for coins. Coins that that rinky dink weapons and clothing stalls don't have much of, so, you're not going to get as great deal on it. But them's the breaks.

I think it is this that would work to establish that feeling of there being what is essentially a monopoly that doesn't even have to compete with the supposedly much crappier alternative of independents, and then you would see more crafters seeking to join a GMH just like an ambitious high school senior IRL seeks a seat in a top university.

This is a damned good idea.

[Salt Merchant]

There are places that will buy logs, poles, and planks down south.

There are places that will buy raw obsidian up north.

Make it happen.

I know where those places are, and it's not what he's asking for.

[Salt Merchant]

[Yeah...which means commoners end up dying with 100,000 'sid in the bank, whereas nobles end up storing with 0.  I'm not sure what the problem is here.

Which highlights the fact that being that rich as a commoner is useless. The money accumulates because there's nothing to spend it on (except a descent into spice, whores and drink, and maybe a few assassinations although why your commoner would hate that many people I don't know), whereas nobles have plenty to spend it on.

[Salt Merchant]

Whereas I agree, to some extent, I do have clanned commoner characters who are /not/ merchants, couldn't craft for shit, and got tons of interactions, never step out of their respective city and make enough sids to have over five digits in the bank always despite my spending sprees. I always liked bribery and blackmail...

I think it is a matter that some people are not aware that some options and choices are available and can be done. It's nice to have a mentor ic. Get those lessons, both for ic growth and learning more about arm oocly through the experience.

I'm sorry to say it, but the female experience on Armgeddon is sometimes different than the male one. I know this having played characters of both genders.

[Synthesis]

[Yeah...which means commoners end up dying with 100,000 'sid in the bank, whereas nobles end up storing with 0.  I'm not sure what the problem is here.

Which highlights the fact that being that rich as a commoner is useless. The money accumulates because there's nothing to spend it on (except a descent into spice, whores and drink, and maybe a few assassinations although why your commoner would hate that many people I don't know), whereas nobles have plenty to spend it on.

Precisely my point, dear Mr. Watson.  Precisely my point.

[Gimfalisette]

I think commoners tend to continue to amass money past the "enough to supply my needs" point simply because it's something to do. It's the same kind of hoarding behavior people exhibit in MMOs, and would exhibit in RL except that most of us don't even have the income to supply much more than basic needs--the real world is much much more full of extra things to buy than ARM is. And hoarding has the feeling of being a goal of some kind; most characters are in need of more goals.

Perhaps we just need a lot more stuff for commoners to spend money on.

[My 2 sids]

If PCs are making too much money:

Take on an apprentice

Make yourself into a victim (carry around sids for thiefs and muggers -- nothing that's out of the norm ICly, but OOCly you're carrying cash and give the appearance of being open to a role-play mugging)

Don't make so much money -- maybe there are other skills or other plots to become involved in instead of making and selling stuff

[Synthesis]

You want GMHs to be "realistic," then you'll have no problem with the GMH merchant houses refusing to buy from independents who aren't buying from them.

Here's an interesting idea I just thought of...

... make it, either now or for Arm2, that the great merchant houses (or Arm2 equivalents) refuse to trade their coins for items. Make this happen immediately (i.e., merchants always refuse such a trade) or eventually (after a certain number of coins has been traded to the seller in a session, which would ideally last a while [perhaps an IG day]).

No longer will you be able to walk into the GMH shop with your crafted spear or shirt, type 'offer spear' or 'offer shirt' and then get your coins, and walk out with a hefty sack.

Now you'll have to trade that spear or shirt in for something of similar value at that GMH shop, or go to some rinky dink weapon stall or clothing stall and sell it there for coins. Coins that that rinky dink weapons and clothing stalls don't have much of, so, you're not going to get as great deal on it. But them's the breaks.

See, the thing is...the GMHs actually make profit off of all that "useless crap" that indie crafters sell at their shops.  They buy it for at most around 70% of what they end up selling it for, and that's only if there's a maxed haggler at either end of the deal.  If you're a subclass crafter without the haggle skill, you'll end up getting -maybe- a quarter of what they'll finally sell it for.  This was always reflected by VNPC purchases, but it's actually reflected by the code, now.

I bet if the Staff kept track of how much coin was vaporized out of GMH shops on reboots, it would -vastly- dwarf the sum that they reload with upon reboot.  The mathematics is pretty simple:  the downside is always limited to the amount the shop loads with upon reboots, but the upside potential is MASSIVE. 

Sure, the Salarr armor shop down south floods with crappy wooden shields every reboot, but they buy them for much, much less than they sell them for.  If they make a -single- wooden shield sale to a virtual purchaser, that's a no-haggle situation:  that shield they bought for 250, they just sold for 650.  They've got twice the cash, and furthermore, you can only sell them -1- more shield, because they're limited to 5.  So you can suck another 250 out, but that still leaves them with 400 'sid profit.  Who's the sucker now?

You can see this in certain other shops, as well:  some jerk will bum-rush the shop directly after reboot and sell a 1,000 'sid item for 200 coins (because the shop only loads with 200), and the shopkeeper will languish there for days with almost no cash.  But eventually, they get 800 'sid profit off that 1,000 'sid item.  All of a sudden the shop starts flooding with items PCs are selling to it, and the shop will make about the same % profit from every single one of them.  The more expensive crap you sell to the shop, the greater the chance they will end up selling that expensive crap for huge profit on their next virtual sale.  Eventually, they'll reach maximum volume on the insanely expensive items, again, to the point where you can drain money out, but you won't be able to kill their profit margin.

There are some shops where this system breaks down, I'll admit.  If there's a continuous high volume of PC sellers, and the shop buys numerous expensive-type items, you can reach a point where the shop is continuously depleted of cash. 

But this raises another interesting point:  people who are willing to haggle -downward- to get that last bit of cash, because they need to make a sale NOW.  All of a sudden, the shop is getting 500 'sid items for 100 'sid because nobody wants to wait around for the next reboot or virtual sale.  Since those -items- should be included in the total capital of the shop upon reboot, it's possible that they have increased their total capital by massive amounts, due to the large volume of extremely valuable items in their stockpile that they ended up paying a pittance for.

The bottom line is:  the GMHs and NPC shops are most certainly not getting the short end of the stick on buying PC-crafted items.

[Shiroi Tsuki]

As previously stated, there is absolutely no reason why a good merchant wouldn't capitalize on your desire to sell them individual products on the cheap.

It is actually very similar to the putting-out system, or the domestic system, that was in popularity in medieval Europe.  Under that system, a merchant would typically provide someone (say, a widow) with raw materials.  Later the woman would come back to the merchant, and be paid extremely substandard prices for the finished product.  Which the merchant would then turn around and sell at a hefty profit.  This was particularly practiced in the manufacture of cloth goods, before factories.

So if you think about out, our merchants are further shafting you by not even providing you with the raw materials.  Welcome to Zalanthas!

On the initial topic of wanting to see a slight increase of coins made from independent jobs... there are probably a surplus of indie jobs out there that pay extremely well if someone is willing to risk a bit of danger, and sometimes not even that.  I have consistently made much less with my clan characters than with my indie characters, ever, so I really don't feel this to be necessary.

[number13]

If anything, indies should be paid less.

[Boggis]

Nobles and commoners should have to interact more to make money. What I'd give to see something like the Roman Republic prior to Caesar where the publicani and noblemen of the Senate were practically required to work together given the size of the operations involved. Nobles were barred by law from indulging in overseas trade and publicani were barred from the Senate. This led to massive corruption where in return for public services such as good roads and harbours, relative law and order, etc. nobles would expect backhanders from the publicani. In effect both parties needed each other to get rich. There are shades of this in Tuluk with the Qynar but it's not been followed through for various reasons. Nobles throughout history nearly always were involved in making money even if they affected a snooty disdain towards it. In Arm (especially in Allanak) they seem to be relegated too often to being nothing more than plot drivers using an amount of 'sid that many commoners can amass in a week if they put their minds to it. There's no real requirement for commoners to interact with nobles unless said noble has some interesting plot going on. We should have a system that encourages more interaction between different groups - we're a small population so things need to interlock more. So, to bring all this back to the point of the thread I don't mind so much if indies get to make good 'sid I'd just like to see them lose big chunks of it as backhanders for the privilege of being allowed to make good 'sid. I doubt anything will change much in Arm but for Arm 2 I'm hoping to see a system that requires more interaction between different levels of society in order to make good money.

[WarriorPoet]

I say slice mining from the game altogether and drastically increase the price of food and water.

Indies can become richer than the neighborhood Noble. That is nonsense. They should be showing their belly to their betters in hopes of being tossed a scrap.

-WP nods.

[Salt Merchant]

I say slice mining from the game altogether and drastically increase the price of food and water.

Indies can become richer than the neighborhood Noble. That is nonsense. They should be showing their belly to their betters in hopes of being tossed a scrap.

-WP nods.

No. Create a 'rinthi if you want to barely scrape by and be everyone's kicking dog.

[My 2 sids]

Just because wheeling-n-dealing/ spying  aren't coded skills shouldn't imply people can't "twink" them.   Some players know all the short cuts, know all the sales, live for gathering/selling info -- they max and abuse what would be realistic just as  warrior who spars 3 days straight or the criminal who keeps knocking over the exact same house (creeping all the way home).

The game is code is hard enough as it is, that's why we have posts like this.   Truly take a look, are the indie PCs making 100k +  doing so in a realistic manner?   If they aren't than it's not the code that needs to be changed.

[musashi]

If anything, indies should be paid less.

I would rather nobles just be paid more, honestly.

[Morrolan]

The concept of "money as power" is a Western capitalist one, and more importantly (for those following these things) a neo-Marxist approach as well.

In other words, it does not fit the gameworld (which does not have, nor understand, economic theory AFAIK) well.  There is no Adam Smith in Zalanthas.

I doubt that, in any real sense, money is power in Zalanthas.  Reputation, land, relationships with powerful people are power.

Perhaps the question is this: if money is not a priori power, then what is it actually good for?

Power is power.  Money is a poor substitute used by commoners with nouveau riche delusions of grandeur.

Morrolan

[FantasyWriter]

The concept of "money as power" is a Western capitalist one, and more importantly (for those following these things) a neo-Marxist approach as well.

In other words, it does not fit the gameworld (which does not have, nor understand, economic theory AFAIK) well.  There is no Adam Smith in Zalanthas.

I doubt that, in any real sense, money is power in Zalanthas.  Reputation, land, relationships with powerful people are power.

Perhaps the question is this: if money is not a priori power, then what is it actually good for?

Power is power.  Money is a poor substitute used by commoners with nouveau riche delusions of grandeur.

Morrolan

Very nice.

[Boggis]

The concept of "money as power" is a Western capitalist one, and more importantly (for those following these things) a neo-Marxist approach as well.

In other words, it does not fit the gameworld (which does not have, nor understand, economic theory AFAIK) well.  There is no Adam Smith in Zalanthas.

I doubt that, in any real sense, money is power in Zalanthas.  Reputation, land, relationships with powerful people are power.

Perhaps the question is this: if money is not a priori power, then what is it actually good for?

Power is power.  Money is a poor substitute used by commoners with nouveau riche delusions of grandeur.

Morrolan

Money should definitely equate with power in Zalanthas. Economic theory does not have to be understood and money meant power long before Adam Smith, Western capitalism and neo-Marxism existed. This is why we have records of the Persian King Darius being described as a "shopkeeper" given his attention to making money but it was this attention to that detail, amongst other things, that allowed him to keep his grip and power and raise and maintain such a large and well equipped army. Reputation, land and relationships with powerful people are certainly measurements are power but it's money that underpins a good deal of these. In societies where money did not exist in any real form it was the nobility with their land that had the power but, for example, in 600 B.C. when coinage was introduced into Ionia and then spread into Greece this was momentous. Now the merchant had the same spending power as the nobleman and this worried the aristocracy deeply as the political and social landscape changed dramatically for them. During the Roman Republic merchants could make immense money in overseas trades in slaves, luxury items, etc. and although they could not become members of the Senate themselves their wealth could and did definitely influence Senate votes.

To bring it to Zalanthan terms if House Oash, for example, was to lose it's Vineyards as well as it's access to the means by which they make all the rest of their money would they lose any of the power or not? If the Jihaen Order lost access to the funds to maintain it's army would they lose any of their power? If power is power then they should not. I think in both cases they'd be severely crippled though. Money has always greased the wheels of power - lose it and you're done.

The problem with the gameworld is that certain sections of society are making vast amounts of money although the jobs they're performing mean that they shouldn't and this is hugely distorting the power of money. Nobles should be making big money and successful commoner merchants (GMH or indies) dealing on a large scale and bribing the right people should be making big money. Everybody else should be making, at best, average money. A miner / salter / hunter should -never- make as much money as a noble. Mining should be existence living unless you somehow organise it to be done on a massive scale. The current system is insanity and takes away a prime motivator for people in power to use to get things done.

[DustMight]

Water is power in Zalanthas.  Whoever controls the water controls the people.

[AmandaGreathouse]

Water is power in Zalanthas.  Whoever controls the water controls the people.

This.

Also, with deposits of obsidian around, and coins being made from said obsidian, it makes perfect sense that some people can get rich, even being commoners. Sorry, that just kinda reminds me of the gold rush back in the day. Currency was gold, and suddenly people were finding gold there for the taking. It's literazlly like money growing on trees.

If anything should mean power in Zalanthas, I agree, it should be water.

[IntuitiveApathy]

Water is power in Zalanthas.  Whoever controls the water controls the people.

I agree that this is how the world should be and perhaps how the staff intends the world to be, but I strongly feel that the economics of water (and all associated social implications and consequences) are not represented proportionally at all in the current game.

Currently, water costs a significant amount to purchase from NPC watersellers.  Taking Allanak as an example, to fill an average sized waterskin costs perhaps around 1/5 of an average clanned worker's monthly salary.  That cost is significant and is why I believe the staff has always intended that water in the world be a valuable commodity.  Your normal vNPC commoner would be and should be struggling to get by with everyday life with that sort of water maintenance cost.  However, for PCs, this water cost is rendered mostly irrelevant for several reasons.

The chief reason is that many PCs do not buy water from NPC watersellers.  This may be because they are clanned and their clan provides them with water.  Or perhaps they are an independent and they know how to obtain water from other sources which are ostensibly free (the cost is the inherent risks, which vary widely).  Or they simply don't go outside as water use is apparently virtually nil if the character stays indoors.

For those PCs that do purchase water from the NPC watersellers, they are obviously making enough money to do so.  There have been many observations - and I will add my own - that it is simply too easy for an independent to make money.  So where the water cost for a vNPC is significant, it quickly becomes insignificant for those PCs that are buying that same water.

Either PCs aren't buying water at all, or those that do are doing more than well enough and it becomes an afterthought.  In order to better represent the cost of water in the world, there follow several solutions:

• Water from NPC watersellers could be made more expensive.
• Water from outside sources could be made more scarce.
• Water provided by clans could be limited, or some cost be attached to it (either monetary or social).
• Physiological water use indoors could be increased.
• The sources of income for independents could be decreased.

Water should be a significant and valuable resource and I do believe the authors and keepers of the world have always meant for this to be represented in the game.  That can be seen in both clan documentation and various coded aspects of the game.  However, this is not the case at the moment.  Increasing the significance of water will drive all sorts of plot engines owing to a greater interdependence between PCs and the various factions on all levels of the population they represent - the sort of 'interlock' that Boggis brought up.  I agree that PCs are meant to be the movers and shakers of the world - standing out from your average Joe Commoner.  I do think that most players want to play that standout as well, rather than a true mundane.  However, increasing the cost of water does not mean that players will be forced to play those true mundanes - no warrior should be forced to sweep streets for extra income to buy water because the player picked the warrior guild (and presumably a warrior role), not the street sweeper guild.  But currently the gap between subsistence and easy wealth is too great and there have been many threads discussing the ease of obtaining wealth.  That gap could easily be narrowed and I strongly believe the game would benefit in many ways as a result.

[Salt Merchant]

Water is power in Zalanthas.  Whoever controls the water controls the people.

If this were fully true (or at least more properly applied), Vivaduans would have the status of nobility.

[Salt Merchant]

There have been many observations - and I will add my own - that it is simply too easy for an independent to make money.

As opposed to what, though? Really, what you and other people are saying is that it's too easy for an independent handled by a player with a good knowledge of the game to make money.

But this will always be a problem. People will use the money-making possibilities that are available. I wouldn't like to see Arm continue down the slippery slope of constantly trying to add to the challenge and thereby making it that much more impossible for new players to get going without solving the fact the old players will just catch up.

The only way this will be "solved" is to either remove money making all together (i.e. just kill independence outright, a choice I vehemently oppose; I don't play a RPI to have to report to a second boss all the time) or turn it into such a grind that independence effectively dies as those who try it give up. No thanks.

[Delstro]

On topic though, I think we could use more quest-like jobs IG, like the salt gathering, purple salt crystals, obsidian, logging, spice gathering.

Clans will be a lot more important in 2.Arm with the induction of the Prestige(If that is what they are calling it.
It will be awesome.

If I were a templar and I see two people who faught, I'd believe the independent would have started it. Every time. Matter of politics.
That isn't represented too much in the current code.

Different subject though.



I don't think anything should happen to independents. Right now, I can RP scraping by and not have to work three hours a day. If it was made harder, I'd have to do more solo-rp to make money than now. That ain't fun. I suggest we make clans more appealing. I suggest we make more of a dividing line between clannies and independents. The following is small, but it can go a long way. I suggest the following:
If you aren't in a clan, the only food you can buy from food sellers is almost rotten food, roots, dried meat, and various fresh "mystery" meats. If you want something special like fruit or bread, you'd better go deal with a PC.
If you aren't in a clan, you don't get to even buy fresh, clear water. You will buy this skin of greying water for 60 'sid and you will like it.
If you are in a clan, you may get your armor and weapons repaired free of charge.
If you are in a clan, and you are higher ranked, you may get your own house provided apartment.
If you are in a clan, you may automatically get a get out of jail card or reduced sentence for lesser crimes, unless that templar doesn't currently like your house.

[Salt Merchant]

I suggest we make clans more appealing.

I was going to reply to this post in more detail, but then I realized the core assumption is really this.

Why is it necessary to make clans more appealing? Why is it necessary to try to force everyone to join a clan?

Why does Armageddon need to continue to evolve into ClanMud?

[Fathi]

I suggest we make clans more appealing.

I was going to reply to this post in more detail, but then I realized the core assumption is really this.

Why is it necessary to make clans more appealing? Why is it necessary to try to force everyone to join a clan?

Why must Salt Merchant hyperbolise every good-natured suggestion other posters make?

I didn't see anything in his post whatsoever that hinted that he thinks 'everyone' should join clans. But it does seem a little odd when the primary motivation behind people joining clans is to get a consistent group of folks to RP with or just for the sake of "having a job" rather than for the supposed social protection, awesome salaries, IC benefits, and other things that joining a clan is supposed to provide your PC with. Not that the RP points aren't a valid set of points for joining... but why is it that our primary motivators for joining clans or not joining clans tend to be OOC versus IC?

[roughneck]

but why is it that our primary motivators for joining clans or not joining clans tend to be OOC versus IC?

This is only the case if you know the game well and want to spend time doing hard-coded things just for sids and skills.  I can make more money and advance skills faster with any class by staying independent over joining a clan but this is only the case because I know the system and the game world.  It's like starting your own business over working for somebody else, lots of people have the know-how and experience to do it but there's other benefits to working like a shmoe for a boss that you don't have as an entrepreneur.

Clans are the cushy union or government jobs - you do it for security and lifestyle.  Independents can get rich and have the freedom to try more things, but at risk and without the security.  There's always going to be people that want to work in the GM car factory for 25/hr + benefits and there's always going to people that wouldn't do it in a million years.  Maybe that's a bad analogy given the current economic situation and how it's hitting the automotive industry, but you get the point.

[Fathi]

but why is it that our primary motivators for joining clans or not joining clans tend to be OOC versus IC?

This is only the case if you know the game well and want to spend time doing hard-coded things just for sids and skills.  I can make more money and advance skills faster with any class by staying independent over joining a clan but this is only the case because I know the system and the game world.  It's like starting your own business over working for somebody else, lots of people have the know-how and experience to do it but there's other benefits to working like a shmoe for a boss that you don't have as an entrepreneur.

Clans are the cushy union or government jobs - you do it for security and lifestyle.  Independents can get rich and have the freedom to try more things, but at risk and without the security.  There's always going to be people that want to work in the GM car factory for 25/hr + benefits and there's always going to people that wouldn't do it in a million years.  Maybe that's a bad analogy given the current economic situation and how it's hitting the automotive industry, but you get the point.

Yeah, I can see what you mean by that, definitely.

I meant more that there are OOC aspects of clans that tend to drive players away from them rather than the moneymaking/skillupping aspects that could drive players toward independenthood. If that makes sense.

Clans aren't just unattractive because you can't skill up and go mining 24/7.

[IntuitiveApathy]

There have been many observations - and I will add my own - that it is simply too easy for an independent to make money.

As opposed to what, though? Really, what you and other people are saying is that it's too easy for an independent handled by a player with a good knowledge of the game to make money.

But this will always be a problem. People will use the money-making possibilities that are available. I wouldn't like to see Arm continue down the slippery slope of constantly trying to add to the challenge and thereby making it that much more impossible for new players to get going without solving the fact the old players will just catch up.

The only way this will be "solved" is to either remove money making all together (i.e. just kill independence outright, a choice I vehemently oppose; I don't play a RPI to have to report to a second boss all the time) or turn it into such a grind that independence effectively dies as those who try it give up. No thanks.

I don't think that making it more difficult for independent characters to make money would remove that aspect of the game.  Your reasoning is that since new players would find it more difficult to survive, they would give up and never try again.  I would argue that might turn out to be true for a certain subset of the player population, but wouldn't hold true for the rest.  Take me for example - I didn't even try playing an independent character until I'd played several characters already.  I went back to an independent again after several more characters.  That latest didn't last as long as my first, but I'm not discouraged - I fully intend to play another independent again in the future.  It's just another aspect of the game that I'd love to try again someday - I am certainly not in favour of removing indy characters as a viable role.

But I honestly think there is a middle ground that we haven't found yet.  Newbies may never have an easy time with Armageddon, but it doesn't mean we should spoil the game for everyone else trying to make their lives easier.  In fact, I don't think that altering water economics or dealing with the related problem of wealthy independents is necessarily mutually exclusive of making the game easier for newbies to handle.  There are other ways to help new players and those have long been discussed in other threads.

As to water elementalists achieving godhood through their limitless fount of waterdoms in a new water economy; that's also easily addressed.  Limit the amount of water they can produce, or introduce or increase some other consequence in its production.  But maybe Vivaduans really should be revered in a desert wasteland?

[AmandaGreathouse]

As to water elementalists achieving godhood through their limitless fount of waterdoms in a new water economy; that's also easily addressed.  Limit the amount of water they can produce, or introduce or increase some other consequence in its production.  But maybe Vivaduans really should be revered in a desert wasteland?

I think there are certain mitigating factors in place to help this balance out already. Sorry. Limitless you are not. With anything. And everyone starts out weak. My one elementalist died way before I would have liked. Besides, I wouldn't think they would be revered any more than any other mage. In fact, they might be a bit more detested by the ignorant and the jealous.

"'ey Malik, you thinkin' there might be more water 'round if the feckin' water witches weren't drinkin' so much of it up from wherever the feck it comes from?"

I could see it getting them more employment, simply out of noble houses seeking the power that would come from having the elementalist as a resource, but not them being more revered in and of themselves. Nobody likes a witch.

[sprucebark]

There are huge benefits of joining a GMH or major clan, moonlighting should be an insult to the house punishable by death.

The independent  must constantly maintain their tiny empire or watch it crumble.  They struggle for a glimpse of what being
in a GMH really means.  Yes, struggle with the constant need to maintain what a GMH already offers.

Example:  Indy merchant quits playing for two weeks to deal with a RL project.  Apartment is gone, completed crafts gone,
furniture gone, food supply gone, water in the cistern gone, chief supplier joined the byn, and whatever else could go
wrong because OOC events destroyed his IC persona.  The GMH hunter logs back in and opens his sky-blue-pink locker
and grabs up his extra waterskin before heading to the FREE stable.

If you want to live a life of toil and amass coins, you can, but it ain't worth squat.

All seems right with the world to me.

[My 2 sids]

Maybe we should be able to add more PCs to renting an apartment?   That way it encourages indy PCs to join together (which is very IC) and pool resources.   

I'd also like to see a few changes with Tuluk's Patranage system.  Namely, OOCly make it more friendly for non-political roles.  Not every indep. person in Tuluk should be considedred a spy; not every patron should assume someone looking for patronage wants to be a spy. 

[AmandaGreathouse]

My God yes. I would love to see it where you could have tons of PCs sharing an apartment. Especially since they are supposed to be so rare/expensive. I would make total use of this.

[Ourla]

I'd also like to see a few changes with Tuluk's Patranage system.  Namely, OOCly make it more friendly for non-political roles.  Not every indep. person in Tuluk should be considedred a spy; not every patron should assume someone looking for patronage wants to be a spy. 

In my experience, this rarely the case in Tuluk.  A savvy patron will tailor their needs to the abilities of their partisan to create a symbiotic relationship beneficial to both parties.  Nothing says that spying even has to enter that equation.  The beauty of the partisan/patron system is that it's incredibly open-ended.  State your needs to your partisan, find out what they're looking for, and go from there.  You're not an employee of the noble House, so the tasks you're assigned are not end-all.

[flurry]

The game is code is hard enough as it is, that's why we have posts like this.   Truly take a look, are the indie PCs making 100k +  doing so in a realistic manner?   If they aren't than it's not the code that needs to be changed.

I agree with this, but I'm not sure how it ever changes.  Unfortunately, I think there will always be players who feel justified in doing anything the code lets them get away with doing.