Job Opportunities Throughout the Known World

[number13]

If anything, indies should be paid less.

[Boggis]

Nobles and commoners should have to interact more to make money. What I'd give to see something like the Roman Republic prior to Caesar where the publicani and noblemen of the Senate were practically required to work together given the size of the operations involved. Nobles were barred by law from indulging in overseas trade and publicani were barred from the Senate. This led to massive corruption where in return for public services such as good roads and harbours, relative law and order, etc. nobles would expect backhanders from the publicani. In effect both parties needed each other to get rich. There are shades of this in Tuluk with the Qynar but it's not been followed through for various reasons. Nobles throughout history nearly always were involved in making money even if they affected a snooty disdain towards it. In Arm (especially in Allanak) they seem to be relegated too often to being nothing more than plot drivers using an amount of 'sid that many commoners can amass in a week if they put their minds to it. There's no real requirement for commoners to interact with nobles unless said noble has some interesting plot going on. We should have a system that encourages more interaction between different groups - we're a small population so things need to interlock more. So, to bring all this back to the point of the thread I don't mind so much if indies get to make good 'sid I'd just like to see them lose big chunks of it as backhanders for the privilege of being allowed to make good 'sid. I doubt anything will change much in Arm but for Arm 2 I'm hoping to see a system that requires more interaction between different levels of society in order to make good money.

[WarriorPoet]

I say slice mining from the game altogether and drastically increase the price of food and water.

Indies can become richer than the neighborhood Noble. That is nonsense. They should be showing their belly to their betters in hopes of being tossed a scrap.

-WP nods.

[Salt Merchant]

I say slice mining from the game altogether and drastically increase the price of food and water.

Indies can become richer than the neighborhood Noble. That is nonsense. They should be showing their belly to their betters in hopes of being tossed a scrap.

-WP nods.

No. Create a 'rinthi if you want to barely scrape by and be everyone's kicking dog.

[My 2 sids]

Just because wheeling-n-dealing/ spying  aren't coded skills shouldn't imply people can't "twink" them.   Some players know all the short cuts, know all the sales, live for gathering/selling info -- they max and abuse what would be realistic just as  warrior who spars 3 days straight or the criminal who keeps knocking over the exact same house (creeping all the way home).

The game is code is hard enough as it is, that's why we have posts like this.   Truly take a look, are the indie PCs making 100k +  doing so in a realistic manner?   If they aren't than it's not the code that needs to be changed.

[musashi]

If anything, indies should be paid less.

I would rather nobles just be paid more, honestly.

[Morrolan]

The concept of "money as power" is a Western capitalist one, and more importantly (for those following these things) a neo-Marxist approach as well.

In other words, it does not fit the gameworld (which does not have, nor understand, economic theory AFAIK) well.  There is no Adam Smith in Zalanthas.

I doubt that, in any real sense, money is power in Zalanthas.  Reputation, land, relationships with powerful people are power.

Perhaps the question is this: if money is not a priori power, then what is it actually good for?

Power is power.  Money is a poor substitute used by commoners with nouveau riche delusions of grandeur.

Morrolan

[FantasyWriter]

The concept of "money as power" is a Western capitalist one, and more importantly (for those following these things) a neo-Marxist approach as well.

In other words, it does not fit the gameworld (which does not have, nor understand, economic theory AFAIK) well.  There is no Adam Smith in Zalanthas.

I doubt that, in any real sense, money is power in Zalanthas.  Reputation, land, relationships with powerful people are power.

Perhaps the question is this: if money is not a priori power, then what is it actually good for?

Power is power.  Money is a poor substitute used by commoners with nouveau riche delusions of grandeur.

Morrolan

Very nice.

[Boggis]

The concept of "money as power" is a Western capitalist one, and more importantly (for those following these things) a neo-Marxist approach as well.

In other words, it does not fit the gameworld (which does not have, nor understand, economic theory AFAIK) well.  There is no Adam Smith in Zalanthas.

I doubt that, in any real sense, money is power in Zalanthas.  Reputation, land, relationships with powerful people are power.

Perhaps the question is this: if money is not a priori power, then what is it actually good for?

Power is power.  Money is a poor substitute used by commoners with nouveau riche delusions of grandeur.

Morrolan

Money should definitely equate with power in Zalanthas. Economic theory does not have to be understood and money meant power long before Adam Smith, Western capitalism and neo-Marxism existed. This is why we have records of the Persian King Darius being described as a "shopkeeper" given his attention to making money but it was this attention to that detail, amongst other things, that allowed him to keep his grip and power and raise and maintain such a large and well equipped army. Reputation, land and relationships with powerful people are certainly measurements are power but it's money that underpins a good deal of these. In societies where money did not exist in any real form it was the nobility with their land that had the power but, for example, in 600 B.C. when coinage was introduced into Ionia and then spread into Greece this was momentous. Now the merchant had the same spending power as the nobleman and this worried the aristocracy deeply as the political and social landscape changed dramatically for them. During the Roman Republic merchants could make immense money in overseas trades in slaves, luxury items, etc. and although they could not become members of the Senate themselves their wealth could and did definitely influence Senate votes.

To bring it to Zalanthan terms if House Oash, for example, was to lose it's Vineyards as well as it's access to the means by which they make all the rest of their money would they lose any of the power or not? If the Jihaen Order lost access to the funds to maintain it's army would they lose any of their power? If power is power then they should not. I think in both cases they'd be severely crippled though. Money has always greased the wheels of power - lose it and you're done.

The problem with the gameworld is that certain sections of society are making vast amounts of money although the jobs they're performing mean that they shouldn't and this is hugely distorting the power of money. Nobles should be making big money and successful commoner merchants (GMH or indies) dealing on a large scale and bribing the right people should be making big money. Everybody else should be making, at best, average money. A miner / salter / hunter should -never- make as much money as a noble. Mining should be existence living unless you somehow organise it to be done on a massive scale. The current system is insanity and takes away a prime motivator for people in power to use to get things done.

[DustMight]

Water is power in Zalanthas.  Whoever controls the water controls the people.

[AmandaGreathouse]

Water is power in Zalanthas.  Whoever controls the water controls the people.

This.

Also, with deposits of obsidian around, and coins being made from said obsidian, it makes perfect sense that some people can get rich, even being commoners. Sorry, that just kinda reminds me of the gold rush back in the day. Currency was gold, and suddenly people were finding gold there for the taking. It's literazlly like money growing on trees.

If anything should mean power in Zalanthas, I agree, it should be water.

[IntuitiveApathy]

Water is power in Zalanthas.  Whoever controls the water controls the people.

I agree that this is how the world should be and perhaps how the staff intends the world to be, but I strongly feel that the economics of water (and all associated social implications and consequences) are not represented proportionally at all in the current game.

Currently, water costs a significant amount to purchase from NPC watersellers.  Taking Allanak as an example, to fill an average sized waterskin costs perhaps around 1/5 of an average clanned worker's monthly salary.  That cost is significant and is why I believe the staff has always intended that water in the world be a valuable commodity.  Your normal vNPC commoner would be and should be struggling to get by with everyday life with that sort of water maintenance cost.  However, for PCs, this water cost is rendered mostly irrelevant for several reasons.

The chief reason is that many PCs do not buy water from NPC watersellers.  This may be because they are clanned and their clan provides them with water.  Or perhaps they are an independent and they know how to obtain water from other sources which are ostensibly free (the cost is the inherent risks, which vary widely).  Or they simply don't go outside as water use is apparently virtually nil if the character stays indoors.

For those PCs that do purchase water from the NPC watersellers, they are obviously making enough money to do so.  There have been many observations - and I will add my own - that it is simply too easy for an independent to make money.  So where the water cost for a vNPC is significant, it quickly becomes insignificant for those PCs that are buying that same water.

Either PCs aren't buying water at all, or those that do are doing more than well enough and it becomes an afterthought.  In order to better represent the cost of water in the world, there follow several solutions:

• Water from NPC watersellers could be made more expensive.
• Water from outside sources could be made more scarce.
• Water provided by clans could be limited, or some cost be attached to it (either monetary or social).
• Physiological water use indoors could be increased.
• The sources of income for independents could be decreased.

Water should be a significant and valuable resource and I do believe the authors and keepers of the world have always meant for this to be represented in the game.  That can be seen in both clan documentation and various coded aspects of the game.  However, this is not the case at the moment.  Increasing the significance of water will drive all sorts of plot engines owing to a greater interdependence between PCs and the various factions on all levels of the population they represent - the sort of 'interlock' that Boggis brought up.  I agree that PCs are meant to be the movers and shakers of the world - standing out from your average Joe Commoner.  I do think that most players want to play that standout as well, rather than a true mundane.  However, increasing the cost of water does not mean that players will be forced to play those true mundanes - no warrior should be forced to sweep streets for extra income to buy water because the player picked the warrior guild (and presumably a warrior role), not the street sweeper guild.  But currently the gap between subsistence and easy wealth is too great and there have been many threads discussing the ease of obtaining wealth.  That gap could easily be narrowed and I strongly believe the game would benefit in many ways as a result.

[Salt Merchant]

Water is power in Zalanthas.  Whoever controls the water controls the people.

If this were fully true (or at least more properly applied), Vivaduans would have the status of nobility.

[Salt Merchant]

There have been many observations - and I will add my own - that it is simply too easy for an independent to make money.

As opposed to what, though? Really, what you and other people are saying is that it's too easy for an independent handled by a player with a good knowledge of the game to make money.

But this will always be a problem. People will use the money-making possibilities that are available. I wouldn't like to see Arm continue down the slippery slope of constantly trying to add to the challenge and thereby making it that much more impossible for new players to get going without solving the fact the old players will just catch up.

The only way this will be "solved" is to either remove money making all together (i.e. just kill independence outright, a choice I vehemently oppose; I don't play a RPI to have to report to a second boss all the time) or turn it into such a grind that independence effectively dies as those who try it give up. No thanks.

[Delstro]

On topic though, I think we could use more quest-like jobs IG, like the salt gathering, purple salt crystals, obsidian, logging, spice gathering.

Clans will be a lot more important in 2.Arm with the induction of the Prestige(If that is what they are calling it.
It will be awesome.

If I were a templar and I see two people who faught, I'd believe the independent would have started it. Every time. Matter of politics.
That isn't represented too much in the current code.

Different subject though.



I don't think anything should happen to independents. Right now, I can RP scraping by and not have to work three hours a day. If it was made harder, I'd have to do more solo-rp to make money than now. That ain't fun. I suggest we make clans more appealing. I suggest we make more of a dividing line between clannies and independents. The following is small, but it can go a long way. I suggest the following:
If you aren't in a clan, the only food you can buy from food sellers is almost rotten food, roots, dried meat, and various fresh "mystery" meats. If you want something special like fruit or bread, you'd better go deal with a PC.
If you aren't in a clan, you don't get to even buy fresh, clear water. You will buy this skin of greying water for 60 'sid and you will like it.
If you are in a clan, you may get your armor and weapons repaired free of charge.
If you are in a clan, and you are higher ranked, you may get your own house provided apartment.
If you are in a clan, you may automatically get a get out of jail card or reduced sentence for lesser crimes, unless that templar doesn't currently like your house.

[Salt Merchant]

I suggest we make clans more appealing.

I was going to reply to this post in more detail, but then I realized the core assumption is really this.

Why is it necessary to make clans more appealing? Why is it necessary to try to force everyone to join a clan?

Why does Armageddon need to continue to evolve into ClanMud?

[Fathi]

I suggest we make clans more appealing.

I was going to reply to this post in more detail, but then I realized the core assumption is really this.

Why is it necessary to make clans more appealing? Why is it necessary to try to force everyone to join a clan?

Why must Salt Merchant hyperbolise every good-natured suggestion other posters make?

I didn't see anything in his post whatsoever that hinted that he thinks 'everyone' should join clans. But it does seem a little odd when the primary motivation behind people joining clans is to get a consistent group of folks to RP with or just for the sake of "having a job" rather than for the supposed social protection, awesome salaries, IC benefits, and other things that joining a clan is supposed to provide your PC with. Not that the RP points aren't a valid set of points for joining... but why is it that our primary motivators for joining clans or not joining clans tend to be OOC versus IC?

[roughneck]

but why is it that our primary motivators for joining clans or not joining clans tend to be OOC versus IC?

This is only the case if you know the game well and want to spend time doing hard-coded things just for sids and skills.  I can make more money and advance skills faster with any class by staying independent over joining a clan but this is only the case because I know the system and the game world.  It's like starting your own business over working for somebody else, lots of people have the know-how and experience to do it but there's other benefits to working like a shmoe for a boss that you don't have as an entrepreneur.

Clans are the cushy union or government jobs - you do it for security and lifestyle.  Independents can get rich and have the freedom to try more things, but at risk and without the security.  There's always going to be people that want to work in the GM car factory for 25/hr + benefits and there's always going to people that wouldn't do it in a million years.  Maybe that's a bad analogy given the current economic situation and how it's hitting the automotive industry, but you get the point.

[Fathi]

but why is it that our primary motivators for joining clans or not joining clans tend to be OOC versus IC?

This is only the case if you know the game well and want to spend time doing hard-coded things just for sids and skills.  I can make more money and advance skills faster with any class by staying independent over joining a clan but this is only the case because I know the system and the game world.  It's like starting your own business over working for somebody else, lots of people have the know-how and experience to do it but there's other benefits to working like a shmoe for a boss that you don't have as an entrepreneur.

Clans are the cushy union or government jobs - you do it for security and lifestyle.  Independents can get rich and have the freedom to try more things, but at risk and without the security.  There's always going to be people that want to work in the GM car factory for 25/hr + benefits and there's always going to people that wouldn't do it in a million years.  Maybe that's a bad analogy given the current economic situation and how it's hitting the automotive industry, but you get the point.

Yeah, I can see what you mean by that, definitely.

I meant more that there are OOC aspects of clans that tend to drive players away from them rather than the moneymaking/skillupping aspects that could drive players toward independenthood. If that makes sense.

Clans aren't just unattractive because you can't skill up and go mining 24/7.

[IntuitiveApathy]

There have been many observations - and I will add my own - that it is simply too easy for an independent to make money.

As opposed to what, though? Really, what you and other people are saying is that it's too easy for an independent handled by a player with a good knowledge of the game to make money.

But this will always be a problem. People will use the money-making possibilities that are available. I wouldn't like to see Arm continue down the slippery slope of constantly trying to add to the challenge and thereby making it that much more impossible for new players to get going without solving the fact the old players will just catch up.

The only way this will be "solved" is to either remove money making all together (i.e. just kill independence outright, a choice I vehemently oppose; I don't play a RPI to have to report to a second boss all the time) or turn it into such a grind that independence effectively dies as those who try it give up. No thanks.

I don't think that making it more difficult for independent characters to make money would remove that aspect of the game.  Your reasoning is that since new players would find it more difficult to survive, they would give up and never try again.  I would argue that might turn out to be true for a certain subset of the player population, but wouldn't hold true for the rest.  Take me for example - I didn't even try playing an independent character until I'd played several characters already.  I went back to an independent again after several more characters.  That latest didn't last as long as my first, but I'm not discouraged - I fully intend to play another independent again in the future.  It's just another aspect of the game that I'd love to try again someday - I am certainly not in favour of removing indy characters as a viable role.

But I honestly think there is a middle ground that we haven't found yet.  Newbies may never have an easy time with Armageddon, but it doesn't mean we should spoil the game for everyone else trying to make their lives easier.  In fact, I don't think that altering water economics or dealing with the related problem of wealthy independents is necessarily mutually exclusive of making the game easier for newbies to handle.  There are other ways to help new players and those have long been discussed in other threads.

As to water elementalists achieving godhood through their limitless fount of waterdoms in a new water economy; that's also easily addressed.  Limit the amount of water they can produce, or introduce or increase some other consequence in its production.  But maybe Vivaduans really should be revered in a desert wasteland?

[AmandaGreathouse]

As to water elementalists achieving godhood through their limitless fount of waterdoms in a new water economy; that's also easily addressed.  Limit the amount of water they can produce, or introduce or increase some other consequence in its production.  But maybe Vivaduans really should be revered in a desert wasteland?

I think there are certain mitigating factors in place to help this balance out already. Sorry. Limitless you are not. With anything. And everyone starts out weak. My one elementalist died way before I would have liked. Besides, I wouldn't think they would be revered any more than any other mage. In fact, they might be a bit more detested by the ignorant and the jealous.

"'ey Malik, you thinkin' there might be more water 'round if the feckin' water witches weren't drinkin' so much of it up from wherever the feck it comes from?"

I could see it getting them more employment, simply out of noble houses seeking the power that would come from having the elementalist as a resource, but not them being more revered in and of themselves. Nobody likes a witch.

[sprucebark]

There are huge benefits of joining a GMH or major clan, moonlighting should be an insult to the house punishable by death.

The independent  must constantly maintain their tiny empire or watch it crumble.  They struggle for a glimpse of what being
in a GMH really means.  Yes, struggle with the constant need to maintain what a GMH already offers.

Example:  Indy merchant quits playing for two weeks to deal with a RL project.  Apartment is gone, completed crafts gone,
furniture gone, food supply gone, water in the cistern gone, chief supplier joined the byn, and whatever else could go
wrong because OOC events destroyed his IC persona.  The GMH hunter logs back in and opens his sky-blue-pink locker
and grabs up his extra waterskin before heading to the FREE stable.

If you want to live a life of toil and amass coins, you can, but it ain't worth squat.

All seems right with the world to me.

[My 2 sids]

Maybe we should be able to add more PCs to renting an apartment?   That way it encourages indy PCs to join together (which is very IC) and pool resources.   

I'd also like to see a few changes with Tuluk's Patranage system.  Namely, OOCly make it more friendly for non-political roles.  Not every indep. person in Tuluk should be considedred a spy; not every patron should assume someone looking for patronage wants to be a spy. 

[AmandaGreathouse]

My God yes. I would love to see it where you could have tons of PCs sharing an apartment. Especially since they are supposed to be so rare/expensive. I would make total use of this.

[Ourla]

I'd also like to see a few changes with Tuluk's Patranage system.  Namely, OOCly make it more friendly for non-political roles.  Not every indep. person in Tuluk should be considedred a spy; not every patron should assume someone looking for patronage wants to be a spy. 

In my experience, this rarely the case in Tuluk.  A savvy patron will tailor their needs to the abilities of their partisan to create a symbiotic relationship beneficial to both parties.  Nothing says that spying even has to enter that equation.  The beauty of the partisan/patron system is that it's incredibly open-ended.  State your needs to your partisan, find out what they're looking for, and go from there.  You're not an employee of the noble House, so the tasks you're assigned are not end-all.