The Formal Title for Hlum Nobles

[musashi]

In the North, when you address one of His Chosen you usually say something like: His Chosen Lord Funnypants of House Dasari.

What if it's a Hlum (ie houseless) noble. Would you say: His Chosen Lord Funnypants of the Hlum? Or: His Chosen Hlum Lord Funnypants?

[Fathi]

When playing a commoner and an upper-caster in Tuluk alike, I used to just say, "Chosen Lady/Lord."

If the Hlum in question chose to formally introduce themselves as Chosen Lady Ivana of the Hlum, then that's their thing. And I imagine that, it being Tuluk, other people might take the habit up so as to not appear to show disrespect by shortening the title.

[tortall]

I think few nobles even use their House title, except when introducing themselves.

[jstorrie]

I think that Hlum lords/ladies should not have 'Chosen' in their title, to differentiate them from Surif nobles. But that's just me. If straight lord/lady is too Southern, there are all sorts of potential alternates to Chosen, like Lord Hunstman, Risen Lord, Lord Champion, etc..

Chosen Lord Funnypants of the Hlum would sound weird, though, because no one would ever say Chosen Lord Fancyhat of the Surif. Maybe the solution is to encourage Hlum nobles to take on family names, or to be granted family names by the Sun King. I dub thee Chosen Lord Khortoc McGortok, or such.

[fourTwenty]

Khortoc McGortok

Can I still this name? I think you just named my traveling bard/nomad.

[musashi]

I think that Hlum lords/ladies should not have 'Chosen' in their title, to differentiate them from Surif nobles. But that's just me. If straight lord/lady is too Southern, there are all sorts of potential alternates to Chosen, like Lord Hunstman, Risen Lord, Lord Champion, etc..

Chosen Lord Funnypants of the Hlum would sound weird, though, because no one would ever say Chosen Lord Fancyhat of the Surif. Maybe the solution is to encourage Hlum nobles to take on family names, or to be granted family names by the Sun King. I dub thee Chosen Lord Khortoc McGortok, or such.

I dunno that I agree with the idea of not saying "Chosen Lord" because I feel like they are still "chosen" by the Sun-King ... just through the process of the Grey Hunt as opposed to the process of birth. Also, I'm not sure they need to be differentiated from the Surif nobles (at least on the surface), since the docs say that Hlum nobles can marry into Surif houses with no problem, at which point they would effectively /be/ Surif nobles, wouldn't they?

I do think it might be interesting to just call them Chosen Lord Bickety-Boo and not have any sort of house title at all, since they don't have one. People normally use that title for every Lord or Lady in any case, so to me, it would seem normal and happy on the surface, but if used in a different situation where one was addressing everyone by their full title, the lack of a house name would subtly come into light.

[AmandaGreathouse]

I think that Hlum lords/ladies should not have 'Chosen' in their title, to differentiate them from Surif nobles. But that's just me. If straight lord/lady is too Southern, there are all sorts of potential alternates to Chosen, like Lord Hunstman, Risen Lord, Lord Champion, etc..

Chosen Lord Funnypants of the Hlum would sound weird, though, because no one would ever say Chosen Lord Fancyhat of the Surif. Maybe the solution is to encourage Hlum nobles to take on family names, or to be granted family names by the Sun King. I dub thee Chosen Lord Khortoc McGortok, or such.

I dunno that I agree with the idea of not saying "Chosen Lord" because I feel like they are still "chosen" by the Sun-King ... just through the process of the Grey Hunt as opposed to the process of birth. Also, I'm not sure they need to be differentiated from the Surif nobles (at least on the surface), since the docs say that Hlum nobles can marry into Surif houses with no problem, at which point they would effectively /be/ Surif nobles, wouldn't they?

I do think it might be interesting to just call them Chosen Lord Bickety-Boo and not have any sort of house title at all, since they don't have one. People normally use that title for every Lord or Lady in any case, so to me, it would seem normal and happy on the surface, but if used in a different situation where one was addressing everyone by their full title, the lack of a house name would subtly come into light.

Very nicely put.

Also, I kind of agree that it wouldn't make much sense to take the 'Chosen' part from their title, if anything, they are more specifically Chosen than the Surif. Because each Hlum is a Chosen, winner of the Grey Hunt and blessed of the Sun King, their line of title ending with themselves, rather than passing on to be inherited. They are each Chosen, non of them simply happening into the role be birth. Although I do like the idea of differentiating the consorts of Hlum nobles, being as they are kind of fringe nobility. That's just me though.

[Rairen]

Because each Hlum is a Chosen, winner of the Grey Hunt and blessed of the Sun King, their line of title ending with themselves, rather than passing on to be inherited.

^-- I think that's a much more useful way of introducing a Hlum nobility.

[Gimfalisette]

I dunno that I agree with the idea of not saying "Chosen Lord" because I feel like they are still "chosen" by the Sun-King ... just through the process of the Grey Hunt as opposed to the process of birth.

The use of the title "Chosen" for nobles in Tuluk doesn't refer to their birth; it refers to the fact that the families were literally chosen by Muk Utep to be nobles, at various times in the history of Tuluk. For some of these families, they were originally chosen at the formation of Tuluk, but after the occupation by Allanak they were again chosen as noble families. (Not all of the former noble families were chosen again...this is why Tuluk has fallen noble houses. Muk didn't deem them good enough to re-choose.) And Lyksae, of course, was not a chosen family prior to the occupation, but were first chosen after.

Thus, Hlum nobles are chosen in the same literal sense that Surif nobles are.

[bardbard#4]

Surif nobles probably wouldn't marry Hlum nobles.

[Tisiphone]

Surif nobles probably wouldn't marry Hlum nobles.

And although Hlum nobles are born as commoners, they become entitled to the same benefits as a Chosen of a Surif noble house, and are bound by the same restrictions. Hlum nobles may marry into Surif Houses, or have romantic relationships with Surif nobles. Alternately, they may keep one commoner mate as Hlum consort, but otherwise they must give up all romantic liaisons with commoners, just as Surif nobles do.

[Delstro]

I kinda would like to call them

Chosen Lord Bela of the Grey hunt in year 48 of the 20th age.

[bardbard#4]

I didn't say they couldn't marry.  I said they probably wouldn't.

Surif marriages are highly political.  It is unlikely, given what is needed to become a Hlum noble, that a Chosen House would approve the marriage to a Hlum noble.

[mansa]

I didn't say they couldn't marry.  I said they probably wouldn't.

Surif marriages are highly political.  It is unlikely, given what is needed to become a Hlum noble, that a Chosen House would approve the marriage to a Hlum noble.

Maybe to House Lyksae, because they are a bunch of tribal warriors anyways.  Get some fresh hunt blood in their loins.

[bardbard#4]

Ya maybe Lyksae, but that would be about it.  I can't see any of the other houses approving it, apart from some strange extenuating circumstance.

[Delstro]

Sometimes, you just want to collect all the Hlum nobles. To ensure everyone thinks your house is better than others. Afterall, you have GENERATIONS of independently chosen Hlums in your midst.

[Adhira]

Hlum can and do marry into Surif houses, like any marriage amongst nobility it's a matter of politics. If the Hlum has an advantage, resource, skill, connections or any other such thing that the House considers to their benefit then the Hlum would be married into the House. At that point they are no longer Hlum, they are Surif and prejudices would be few, and any noblity that held such prejudice would, as a form of protocol, never display it.

Hlum are Chosen Lords and Ladies as they are Chosen by Muk Utep just as every other noble house is Chosen. If you look at the history of the Northern Houses you will see that at some point or other all have risen to their place as Chosen in some manner or other, with birth being only one of these.

For the commoner a Hlum noble is exactly that, a noble, and all nobles are Chosen Lords and Ladies. Hlum are usually the most approachable of the nobility but are held to exactly the same standards and protocols as any other noble born in Tuluk. Commoners and nobility alike would address the Hlum as Chosen Lord or Lady and may sometimes add their given name to that if they are granted use of it.

[KIA]

If you were to become a traitor, you would be viewed as ALWAYS a traitor, just pretending not to be. It would be a disgrace and your entire life's work would be reviewed, you would be infamous and disreputable, dishonored.

Likewise, if you become a Chosen in Tuluk, you may as well always have BEEN a Chosen. That is to say, the Hlum's life had been lived In His Light and he had always BEEN destined to be a Chosen, always had that potential, and it is a glorious affirmation of that person's journey into being Chosen by the Sun King. It would be difficult for a Tuluki to look at a Hlum Chosen as having once been common, even if that Hlum noble tactfully downplayed himself, or professed at having once been common. Suggesting his common roots would be parallel to the trials of the Chosen during Occupation, a nod of recognition, hardly examined as anything but good taste and a further display of that Hlum's nobility and innate dignity.

Hlum are Chosen. And we have always been at war with Oceania.

[musashi]

I likewise, think that Hlum are probably apt to marry into a Surif House for political reasons.

You may be putting too much southern sauce on your northern ideas, bardbard#4 

Commoners and nobility alike would address the Hlum as Chosen Lord or Lady and may sometimes add their given name to that if they are granted use of it.

As we do now ... but if you're trying to use their full and completely title, what goes where a Surif's House name normally goes?

[Bogre]

Maybe just their last name, if they have one?

Sorta like templars who come from merchant houses or what have you.

[musashi]

That works for me 

But wait so ... you continue to address a Templar from a noble house by including their former house name, but you would not include the merchant house name if said Templar came from a merchant house?

[Lizzie]

If you were to become a traitor, you would be viewed as ALWAYS a traitor, just pretending not to be. It would be a disgrace and your entire life's work would be reviewed, you would be infamous and disreputable, dishonored.

Likewise, if you become a Chosen in Tuluk, you may as well always have BEEN a Chosen. That is to say, the Hlum's life had been lived In His Light and he had always BEEN destined to be a Chosen, always had that potential, and it is a glorious affirmation of that person's journey into being Chosen by the Sun King. It would be difficult for a Tuluki to look at a Hlum Chosen as having once been common, even if that Hlum noble tactfully downplayed himself, or professed at having once been common. Suggesting his common roots would be parallel to the trials of the Chosen during Occupation, a nod of recognition, hardly examined as anything but good taste and a further display of that Hlum's nobility and innate dignity.

Hlum are Chosen. And we have always been at war with Oceania.

So then, a Hlum who ceases to be a Hlum, is one who has fallen out of favor with the Sun King? That'd make them - in lower standing than ordinary commoners, who have received no attention one way or another wouldn't it? Ordinary commoners have never "fallen out of favor" because they were never in it. But a Hlum has had a special thing happen...and that special thing has been intentionally taken away. Even if it's taken away with a smile, shouldn't that make the ex-noble somewhat of a pariah?

If a Tenneshi noble was informed that he is no longer a Tenneshi, and no longer entitled to wear the trappings or bear the name of nobility...you'd think he'd be shunned by every other Tenneshi in the city - and by most of the other nobles, at least in public. Wouldn't it be the same for a Hlum?

If a Hlum is expected to be treated the same *with* the favor, shouldn't he be expected to be treated the same if the favor is taken away (for whatever reason)?

[musashi]

So then, a Hlum who ceases to be a Hlum, is one who has fallen out of favor with the Sun King? That'd make them - in lower standing than ordinary commoners, who have received no attention one way or another wouldn't it?

Maybe in the eyes of certain people, but overall, I'm not sure that it would.

For example, if a person is a Sergeant in the Army, and they get knocked down to a Corporal ... they aren't somehow any less of a Corporal than the other Corporals around them because they used to be a Corporal before, became a Sergeant, and are now a Corporal again.

Their standing within the military (on the surface at least) is even with every other Corporal reguardless of their spotty history.

So ... to cross that over into the caste system of Tuluk ... if a person is Chosen, and they fall out of favor and become a commoner, sure people might snicker and they might get more flak than your average commoner because of their history, but I think overall they're still within the commoner caste, not somehow below it. If the person messed up big enough to deserve being lower than a commoner, I think the Templarate would just declare them a slave. (This is assuming they aren't killed outright).

[Nyr]

If you were to become a traitor, you would be viewed as ALWAYS a traitor, just pretending not to be. It would be a disgrace and your entire life's work would be reviewed, you would be infamous and disreputable, dishonored.

Likewise, if you become a Chosen in Tuluk, you may as well always have BEEN a Chosen. That is to say, the Hlum's life had been lived In His Light and he had always BEEN destined to be a Chosen, always had that potential, and it is a glorious affirmation of that person's journey into being Chosen by the Sun King. It would be difficult for a Tuluki to look at a Hlum Chosen as having once been common, even if that Hlum noble tactfully downplayed himself, or professed at having once been common. Suggesting his common roots would be parallel to the trials of the Chosen during Occupation, a nod of recognition, hardly examined as anything but good taste and a further display of that Hlum's nobility and innate dignity.

Hlum are Chosen. And we have always been at war with Oceania.

So then, a Hlum who ceases to be a Hlum, is one who has fallen out of favor with the Sun King? That'd make them - in lower standing than ordinary commoners, who have received no attention one way or another wouldn't it? Ordinary commoners have never "fallen out of favor" because they were never in it. But a Hlum has had a special thing happen...and that special thing has been intentionally taken away. Even if it's taken away with a smile, shouldn't that make the ex-noble somewhat of a pariah?

As you state, commoners have never been in that much favor.  Having the honor of being Chosen as a Hlum Noble is worth more than never having had it (even if the honor is removed somehow).

If a Tenneshi noble was informed that he is no longer a Tenneshi, and no longer entitled to wear the trappings or bear the name of nobility...you'd think he'd be shunned by every other Tenneshi in the city - and by most of the other nobles, at least in public. Wouldn't it be the same for a Hlum?

You'd never hear about this because the Tenneshi would merely disappear.

[Gimfalisette]

But wait so ... you continue to address a Templar from a noble house by including their former house name, but you would not include the merchant house name if said Templar came from a merchant house?

Templars from merchant house families are properly addressed by including their surname, just like templars from noble house families. See red-robe templar "Aquila Nenyuk" on the history timeline.

However, in Tuluk, templars only and always come from noble houses, not merchant houses.