The "proper" responses to raiders.

[staggerlee]

Yeah, I agree Fathi.

And that is why raiding is so rare and difficult currently.  In all but the most extreme cases it's not a profitable enterprise icly.  I don't think it says as much about the rp of raiders and victims so much as that they're trying to force something into the game world that just doesn't have a niche at the moment.

Earlier in the thread I laid out situations where raiding could become feasible, your post ties into that nicely. 

For raiding to be viable in the game we as players need to rethink what raiding means and consider it in a more historic context. On top of that the game world needs to reproduce those historic circumstances that made things like piracy or highway robbery viable.  As it stands, raiding has no place in the game world.  I suspect we're waiting until Arm 2, if not longer, for it to find that place.

[musashi]

I agree that currently, there isn't really a "place" for raiders in the traditional sense (ie, raiders that pick off wagons or other profitable travelling groups), so we're left with "raiders" who find single travellers and take their boots/armor/weapons/coins ... ... pants.

I personally don't mind parting with equipment items or the like unless they're something that the character would feel emotionally attached too (a mount that he'd had a long time and considers a friend, something his parents/love gave him) ... however on the flip side, I have also never had a raider encounter where the raider was happy just taking some coins and buggering off. They have always done something akin to: Oh ... you're willing to give me some coins huh? Well eh ... gimmie your boots and cloak and armor and spear and kank and waterskin and backpack and wrist guards and ring too!!!! Yeah!!!

So there is also a bit of responsibility on the part of the raider PC to realize that it's a game and that the situation is already delicate from a player's perspective, and not being a complete dick as a player can go a long way to making sure no one is overly sore about the event (and wants to now go round up templar/friends/guards/ect to hunt said raider down and kill him for a "tiny" robbery).

Oh ... actually I believe I was once raided by a desert elf who wanted my PC's spear, and I said well ... I use that for hunting so ah ... no. But here take these shells and some hides and bugger off, and they did. However ... given the circumstance I can't shake the feeling that the elf (who was dressed rather like a new character) looked at my PC (dressed rather like an established character) and figured they couldn't actually take him in a fight anyway, so they settled.

[Clearsighted]

Oh ... actually I believe I was once raided by a desert elf who wanted my PC's spear, and I said well ... I use that for hunting so ah ... no. But here take these shells and some hides and bugger off, and they did. However ... given the circumstance I can't shake the feeling that the elf (who was dressed rather like a new character) looked at my PC (dressed rather like an established character) and figured they couldn't actually take him in a fight anyway, so they settled.

Was there 'Bad Motherfucker' stamped on your spear?

[musashi]

Yes ... there was.

[Riev]

I -really- want to be a Raider myself, on my current character. If I did it solo, there is no doubt it would not be easy. But as has been discussed here before, numerous times, my issue is this:


I cannot trust the playerbase as a whole. If I were to raid someone, and ask for money, or that nifty pair of gloves... once I'm done raiding them, they go and make a scene at the local populated bar about how some guy that was wearing exactly this and looked like this held him up and took his gloves, which amounted to maybe a small's worth of steal. Then the local public or templarate decides that I am now a threat, and comes after me due to boredom, or an IC-reasoning of "Well, nobody raids THIS random asshole and gets away with it!"

I can't possibly ask for a coded thing to fix the situation, but as such, I have to either kill the people I raid, know them OOC and convince them with every diplomatic thread I have that I do -not- want to kill their character, or just not raid. I hate that I have to restrict my play due to mistrust in people in game.

[fourTwenty]

Alright, I'll give it up. Here's the secret.

The best "raiders" ever were two groups. The Mob and the Vikings. Two very simple strategies. Kill them all or have at least one decent contact in the city you dont live in but raid near who will calmly dispose of the loudmouth so that folks get the idea that if -I- decide to let you live you damn well better keep your mouth shut about it.

Raiding can be done. The latest changes to the Way really kick ass. Be careful who you raid.

[staggerlee]

Alright, I'll give it up. Here's the secret.

The best "raiders" ever were two groups. The Mob and the Vikings. Two very simple strategies. Kill them all or have at least one decent contact in the city you dont live in but raid near who will calmly dispose of the loudmouth so that folks get the idea that if -I- decide to let you live you damn well better keep your mouth shut about it.

Raiding can be done. The latest changes to the Way really kick ass. Be careful who you raid.

Neither of those is a very good example of raiders in the sense that people are trying to play them.
It was more like state sponsored war/pillaging when the vikings did it... you're not  a bandit when you represent the status quo.  The mob also doesn't work, they don't really rob, pillage or mug... they're into the big time games.
I think I went over that much earlier in the thread though.

[fourTwenty]

Alright, I'll give it up. Here's the secret.

The best "raiders" ever were two groups. The Mob and the Vikings. Two very simple strategies. Kill them all or have at least one decent contact in the city you dont live in but raid near who will calmly dispose of the loudmouth so that folks get the idea that if -I- decide to let you live you damn well better keep your mouth shut about it.

Raiding can be done. The latest changes to the Way really kick ass. Be careful who you raid.

Neither of those is a very good example of raiders in the sense that people are trying to play them.
It was more like state sponsored war/pillaging when the vikings did it... you're not  a bandit when you represent the status quo.  The mob also doesn't work, they don't really rob, pillage or mug... they're into the big time games.
I think I went over that much earlier in the thread though.

They're both great examples. Done it. It works perfectly. Check out the part I bolded. Pirates where often sponsored by governments and they're pretty bandity if you ask me. Old West style bandits used the same strategies. You want to be a solo fly-by-night feared by all boogie man, it aint gonna happen. You can however be a solo fly-by-night feared by many boogie man, it just takes a little thought and effort.

[staggerlee]

Alright, I'll give it up. Here's the secret.

The best "raiders" ever were two groups. The Mob and the Vikings. Two very simple strategies. Kill them all or have at least one decent contact in the city you dont live in but raid near who will calmly dispose of the loudmouth so that folks get the idea that if -I- decide to let you live you damn well better keep your mouth shut about it.

Raiding can be done. The latest changes to the Way really kick ass. Be careful who you raid.

Neither of those is a very good example of raiders in the sense that people are trying to play them.
It was more like state sponsored war/pillaging when the vikings did it... you're not  a bandit when you represent the status quo.  The mob also doesn't work, they don't really rob, pillage or mug... they're into the big time games.
I think I went over that much earlier in the thread though.

They're both great examples. Done it. It works perfectly. Check out the part I bolded. Pirates where often sponsored by governments and they're pretty bandity if you ask me. Old West style bandits used the same strategies. You want to be a solo fly-by-night feared by all boogie man, it aint gonna happen. You can however be a solo fly-by-night feared by many boogie man, it just takes a little thought and effort.

I agree with you, absolutely about the solo fly-by-night business.  And I think piracy, or privateering more appropriately, is an excellent example.
I only take issue with the viking thing because it's more like... if Nak sent the militia to raid Luir's, it's not really raiding when an army does it. Nit picking, I know.

You're right about having support and somewhere to go home to, even political connections - and all the good examples do, even most of the wild west style train robbers/stage coach business came out of the civil war.  That's what makes the role so interesting.

The only real thing I'd point out is that solo will always be hard, in pretty much every case - be it pirate, train robbery, or anything else, these people operate in bands.  Numbers are important, solo is always going to be a really dangerous game.  Possible on Arm perhaps, but only in the most extreme cases.

Edit to add: I'm more clarifying than arguing, you sound like you definitely know what you're doing.

[fourTwenty]

Yes, I agree. I believe we are saying the same thing. I don't only think solo raiding is hard, I think it's impossible for any length of time. My point was, you can be any "type" of raider that gets you off but if you don't have the connections to back it up your screwed.

[Hot_Dancer]

You know, some of the most successful raiders in history tended to be nationally funded.

The Mongolian Great Clans before Ghenghis united them..if you were not in a Great Clan
and you were out in the Steppes, you were dead when they came, became a slave or
were too diseased/poor/old to come near/bother.

Maybe Allanak should be the ones raiding in their territory with their military and Tuluk doing
the same and simply grounding out less funded, less equipped loner powers who rely on
stories of Robin Hood (who was also regionally manned/equipped by the people of his province).

Not even Robin Hood did it alone.

I believe even the Blackmoon were a full sized tribe. The Soh were written on a similar basis.

I think the game would be better if the two city states regularly oppressed and stole, extorted
from the regions they so totally control.

[manonfire]

You know, some of the most successful raiders in history tended to be nationally funded.

The Mongolian Great Clans before Ghenghis united them..if you were not in a Great Clan
and you were out in the Steppes, you were dead when they came, became a slave or
were too diseased/poor/old to come near/bother.

Maybe Allanak should be the ones raiding in their territory with their military and Tuluk doing
the same and simply grounding out less funded, less equipped loner powers who rely on
stories of Robin Hood (who was also regionally manned/equipped by the people of his province).

Not even Robin Hood did it alone.

I believe even the Blackmoon were a full sized tribe. The Soh were written on a similar basis.

I think the game would be better if the two city states regularly oppressed and stole, extorted
from the regions they so totally control.

You remind me of Walter from The Big Lebowski. Everything had to be connected to Vietnam.

[KIA]

Don't be a newbie. The motto for all master assassins and exceptional raiders. I've seen both roles done exquisitely, but it takes smarts and game knowledge. Kind of an elite crowd, really but in my opinion they are armageddon's finest.

[Armaddict]

Nothing real to add but the later posts just brought something to mind.

I once tried to organize state funded raiding, essentially, along with resource stealing for the sake of the parent city-state, or the noble house that would fund it and provide training for it.  This wasn't with a newbie character, but with an established one.  It was called a ludicrous idea.  XD

[staggerlee]

Nothing real to add but the later posts just brought something to mind.

I once tried to organize state funded raiding, essentially, along with resource stealing for the sake of the parent city-state, or the noble house that would fund it and provide training for it.  This wasn't with a newbie character, but with an established one.  It was called a ludicrous idea.  XD

For a lot of reasons we've discussed in this thread... it probably was a ludicrous idea.   
But it's also very situational.

[Qzzrbl]

Y'know, I just thought of something.... Maybe a reason as to why not a lot of people like playing raiders or thieves....

Perhaps it's got something to do with the fact that we're limited to only one character at a time?

I know I'd always have a character off causing trouble if I were allowed to have two characters on an account. (Not at the same time, mind you)

Hell, it could even be a higher karma option.

I know it's an idea that'll get shot down pretty quickly, but it's still an idea. -shrug-

[SMuz]

I'm tempted to make a raider, but I won't, because it's against my character's motives. Here's what I'd do:
1. Get a lot of combat training. Alternatively, start a raiding group together with someone in the tavern and spar with him outside the gates.
2. Leave whatever group I got the training from and venture far from the city.
3. Dress up like a group of hunters, then scour the land. Raiding without a mount is suicide. But unlike hunters, it's not bad roleplay to hunt with a hulking inix.
4. If you find a hunter, rob him (don't kill) or force him to join your band.
5. Travel the roads sometimes.. if you see a merchant.. profit!
6. Don't rob the guys naked or kill them, that'll encourage the lazy soldiers to attack.
7. If you're feeling brave, kidnap the merchant, hold him for a few days, and free him later with enough food and water to survive - or ransom him.

It could be done. It's about as difficult as playing (and surviving) as a pickpocket, though. I'd want to see someone doing this, and I'd like to be the bad-ass militia or mercenary guy who tears that guy apart

[Synthesis]

I played a state-funded raider once.  It was fun until the inevitable rogue magicker showed up. 

[Lakota]

I played a state-funded raider once.  It was fun until the inevitable rogue magicker showed up. 

Somehow I can't help but feel your situation could have been avoided.

[fourTwenty]

I played a state-funded raider once.  It was fun until the inevitable rogue magicker showed up. 

Somehow I can't help but feel your situation could have been avoided.

The inevitable rouge magicker is unavoidable. You may prolong it but it's eventually going to happen, hence the word "inevitable".

[KIA]

I'd think that given the problems raider characters have when they 'go easy' on people, the best solution is to kill your victims and drag their bodies off the road, out of sight. You should probably have a small group rather than just doing it solo, though I understand this to be a problem.

If/when the staff feel that the killing has gotten out of hand (and you avoid capture or justice yourself) perhaps they will implement reliable methods for the raiding PCs to continue doing such a great job but without all the casualties (I recall the blackmoon having specific masks and a hideout, long ago). Maybe they will even implement such methods for the general playerbase.

Or, maybe the staff want the bloodshed. There's no particular OOC reason why you shouldn't just kill anyone you want, if you're a raider. Seems to save a raider the trouble of the loud mouthing of their targets and spare them of a fearsome reputation that might disturb the hives of the City States into action.

Maybe if you're not willing to kill kill kill, you should not be a raider? Spare us your so called mercy until such a time as the code allows you THE LUXURY of that mercy.

Then again... luxury is fairly rare on Zalanthas. So is mercy.

[Jingo]

Not to tell anyone how to play their roles but could you please give other characters the benefit of the doubt?

Getting killed out of the blue sucks balls. I want to die for any other reason than that somebody wants my stuff. And assuming that killing is the only way to get my stuff, I think is indicitive of a H&S mentality.

Also, knowing that there are players who would much prefer just to kill me rather than work something else out, makes me much less likely to consider interacting with anyone that I meet while traveling. So, when I see a PC at a distance with my newbie ranger. I think I'll just run for the hills from now on, it's not worth the risk.

Though, I do agree with KIA that there should be a coded way to deal with raiding prospects targets than kill them. Why don't we have a bondage or slaving code or anything like that yet?

[Synthesis]

Though, I do agree with KIA that there should be a coded way to deal with raiding prospects targets than kill them. Why don't we have a bondage or slaving code or anything like that yet?

You have to branch those from your base mudsex skill.

[Iota]

Though, I do agree with KIA that there should be a coded way to deal with raiding prospects targets than kill them. Why don't we have a bondage or slaving code or anything like that yet?

You have to branch those from your base mudsex skill.

Yeah. It's a hidden skill like alcohol tolerance, except the code can't improve it for you automatically so you have to send in logs for the skill ups.

[KIA]

Getting killed out of the blue sucks balls. I want to die for any other reason than that somebody wants my stuff. And assuming that killing is the only way to get my stuff, I think is indicitive of a H&S mentality.

Your 'stuff' is exactly why you should be killed.