The "proper" responses to raiders.

[staggerlee]

Raiding is a dangerous, unpopular thing done by desperate people with short life expectancies.  The problem isn't that people want to play raiders, it's that they want to play long lived raiders... and it isn't a career that promises a long and fruitful life.  At all.  I can't really imagine it in a form where it was an appealing opportunity, cultures generally frown on that kind of crap.   The best option if everyone wants an easy mode pvp experience would be to have another nation that pilfered from Nak... but anything short of Tuluk is going to get spanked pretty quick for that kind of behaviour. 

Edit to add:  Long lived raiders can/do/will happen, but they're the exception.  And I'm pretty sure that's just fine.  Life on Zalanthas isn't easy, particularly when you decide to make enemies with everyone in the world and spend your days running around the barren wasteland battling giant bugs and every person you come across.    If you make your life a player vs player man hunt, sooner or later you'll come up short.

[brytta.leofa]

I can't really imagine it in a form where it was an appealing opportunity, cultures generally frown on that kind of crap.   The best option if everyone wants an easy mode pvp experience would be to have another nation that pilfered from Nak... but anything short of Tuluk is going to get spanked pretty quick for that kind of behaviour. 

Any of you historionic people feel like posting more on the cultural and political conditions under which raiding can flourish?  Because, as Tisi has said, we know that it has sometimes been successful in at least the mid-term (Danes vs. the British Isles, etc.).  A society might not successfully raid another for many generations, but a skilled raider really can make a successful, life-long career of it.

A resource-poor culture within reach of a rich one that is both geographically and politically decentralized?

Looking at 1.Arm as methodological inspiration for 2.Arm, what would have to change for a real raider culture to flourish?

[staggerlee]

I can't really imagine it in a form where it was an appealing opportunity, cultures generally frown on that kind of crap.  The best option if everyone wants an easy mode pvp experience would be to have another nation that pilfered from Nak... but anything short of Tuluk is going to get spanked pretty quick for that kind of behaviour.

Any of you historionic people feel like posting more on the cultural and political conditions under which raiding can flourish?  Because, as Tisi has said, we know that it has sometimes been successful in at least the mid-term (Danes vs. the British Isles, etc.).  A society might not successfully raid another for many generations, but a skilled raider really can make a successful, life-long career of it.

A resource-poor culture within reach of a rich one that is both geographically and politically decentralized?

Historically most of the examples of sustained cultures of "raiders" are nationally supported enterprises.  Vikings or privateers are both good examples, but both worked because said raiders weren't bandits... they were state sponsored, so their actions were ignored, even congratulated, and they had a safe port to return to.   It's not quite the same as buying a sword and running around the outskirts of a city telling everyone and their dog to hand over their wallet.

If we want flourishing raiders, Nak could sell licenses and allow its people to attack Tuluki, or tribals, or whoever else and return to the safety of the city.    But that's at the mercy of ic events and politics, and not on the menu currently. Also, if it were to happen don't come crying when the political atmosphere shifts and you find yourself on a gallows.

Personally I think that situation could be a lot of fun, but I'd be sure to qualify that a role like that would need to interact with the virtual world and npcs more heavily than pcs, playing a character that subsists entirely off of attacks on other pcs is a bit ludicrous... not to mention dangerous.

Bank robbers, horse thieves, purse snatchers and thugs are always going to lead short, miserable lives. It's how it goes. They aren't noble professions.

[musashi]

Personally I think that situation could be a lot of fun, but I'd be sure to qualify that a role like that would need to interact with the virtual world and npcs more heavily than pcs, playing a character that subsists entirely off of attacks on other pcs is a bit ludicrous... not to mention dangerous.

I think that's the bigget problem with raiding right there.

It's all the biggest problem with being an assassian, or burgler in all likelyhood.

Those folks have to pray strictly off of other PCs for the role to really work, and since PC's are often the "exceptional" people of the world ... you stand a far greater chance of getting knocked off because you're focusing on attacking the 2% percent of the population that are above average.

[Shiroi Tsuki]

Unfortunately, there just aren't any NPCs wandering around outside the gates, going on caravans, or that you can beat up and rob without having to codedly kill them.

[Gimfalisette]

Another thing about raiders, historically, or even modern pirates...is that they don't go for the small stuff. Those who go for the small stuff are more accurately called "muggers." Raiders are the guys who are rustling the whole herd, or hitting that heavy-laden cargo ship, etc. Raiding shouldn't be a small-time, full-time occupation, it should be the kind of thing that's done infrequently but on a grand scale; get the big haul, go home for a few months and live it up.

We don't venerate muggers, after all. We venerate pirates. ARM's raiders, currently, are just muggers.

If you want to be venerated and Make Plots, then go big.

[staggerlee]

Make believe scenario:

-Low level hostilities break out between Nak and Tuluk, without going so far as to become an all out war.  Things are getting ugly, and both suspect an all out war is coming.
-Nak informs the Byn that they'll be allowed to raid a spice caravan heading from Red Storm to Tuluk.
-The Byn says sure.
-The Byn loots the caravan, making off with much treasure.
-GMH get pissed off, threaten to withdraw support from Tuluk if they can't protect the damn trade routes.
-Tuluk and Nak make peace.
-Everyone in the Byn above private is executed as a show of good faith.

That would be real raiding.  I realize that the roles and politics are all skewed, it's a hypothetical example and very intentionally not representing the way things actually work ic.

Come to think of it... the Byn are basically already raiders.  Don't they live off of contracts to go rough people up?  I'm still not sure there's even an issue here, aside from the fact that people have fantasies about playing glorious, badass and feared muggers. Which is an unrealistic goal.

Of course I'd love to play a successful privateer, even at the risk of the gallows.

[Shiroi Tsuki]

I think the problem would be better addressed by more realistic raiding (as mentioned in this thread in several places), and people with more realistic responses to raiders.  It's the responses that I'd really like to see, though there is a world of difference in being raided/mugged by a well-roleplayed PC thug, and having someone try and just walk up to you and kill you.  It's really hard to respond in a good RP way when the raid/muggers are poorly RPed, too.

If there was more RP, realism (in the form of treating your characters like actual people who wouldn't want to die for a piddling 100 coins), and understanding on all sides of this issue, and less twinkery, I think we'd be well off.  But I think that can be said for most of the game

[Gimfalisette]

The Byn would never take a job that potentially threatened their holdings in either city-state, I'm pretty sure. (Remember, the Byn is alive and well in Tuluk too, at least virtually?)

Come to think of it... the Byn are basically already raiders.  Don't they live off of contracts to go rough people up?  I'm still not sure there's even an issue here, aside from the fact that people have fantasies about playing glorious, badass and feared muggers. Which is an unrealistic goal.

Of course I'd love to play a successful privateer, even at the risk of the gallows.

The Byn are mercenaries, which means they'll do almost anything for coins.

I'd suggest that anyone wanting to play a privateer would need, in the current game, to go after large targets which are primarily virtual. Going after virtual targets is totally do-able, but of course it's going to require a lot of coordination with and some support from staff.

"Glorious mugger" kind of cracks me up. I have a hard time imagining venerating such a character, either ICly or OOCly.

[musashi]

Unfortunately, there just aren't any NPCs wandering around outside the gates, going on caravans, or that you can beat up and rob without having to codedly kill them.

Subdue wouldn't help with that?

Either way I do agree with you that the oppertunity just isn't there, same as there are really no coded commoner houses for burglers to burgle  

Or NPC marks for assassins to kill on the behest of NPC contractors.

[staggerlee]

The Byn would never take a job that potentially threatened their holdings in either city-state, I'm pretty sure. (Remember, the Byn is alive and well in Tuluk too, at least virtually?)

Come to think of it... the Byn are basically already raiders.  Don't they live off of contracts to go rough people up?  I'm still not sure there's even an issue here, aside from the fact that people have fantasies about playing glorious, badass and feared muggers. Which is an unrealistic goal.

Of course I'd love to play a successful privateer, even at the risk of the gallows.

The Byn are mercenaries, which means they'll do almost anything for coins.

I'd suggest that anyone wanting to play a privateer would need, in the current game, to go after large targets which are primarily virtual. Going after virtual targets is totally do-able, but of course it's going to require a lot of coordination with and some support from staff.

"Glorious mugger" kind of cracks me up. I have a hard time imagining venerating such a character, either ICly or OOCly.

Yeah, my example was intentionally inaccurate and not based on current in game events.
But I do maintain that hired mercenaries are almost indistinguishable from  raiders.

Under the current game privateers aren't really likely to happen, not until such a time as the political climate changes.  I suppose you could hit gith, you might be able to cut a deal with a government or other organization in regards to that actually.   That kind of contract might work - but again, we're cutting into a market the byn already has pegged down.

Edit to add:  I think what we're describing now is a very different beast from what people complaining about sdesc sniffing and the lifespan of their raiders are trying to play.  But I'm much more excited about this idea, and it's a lot more viable.

Then again... maybe that's a trunk they're feeling, and an ear I'm feeling.  The two concepts aren't entirely unreconcilable.

[Gimfalisette]

Under the current game privateers aren't really likely to happen, not until such a time as the political climate changes.  I suppose you could hit gith, you might be able to cut a deal with a government or other organization in regards to that actually.   That kind of contract might work - but again, we're cutting into a market the byn already has pegged down.

Nah, see, I think if someone in Allanak really wanted to hit Tuluk in some way (or vice versa), they wouldn't / couldn't hire the Byn, specifically because the Byn has obligated itself to neutrality by ownership in both cities. That's a perfect opportunity right there for a privateering group, hired by <authority figure> for sekret raids on <large virtual target>.

[staggerlee]

Under the current game privateers aren't really likely to happen, not until such a time as the political climate changes.  I suppose you could hit gith, you might be able to cut a deal with a government or other organization in regards to that actually.   That kind of contract might work - but again, we're cutting into a market the byn already has pegged down.

Nah, see, I think if someone in Allanak really wanted to hit Tuluk in some way (or vice versa), they wouldn't / couldn't hire the Byn, specifically because the Byn has obligated itself to neutrality by ownership in both cities. That's a perfect opportunity right there for a privateering group, hired by <authority figure> for sekret raids on <large virtual target>.

Very clever.

What I'd like to reinforce now is that the secret here is to stop thumbing your nose at the powers that be.   Work with the power structures and authorities in the game to flourish as a raider, don't work against them. 

Also... the best raiders all back up their actions with a fervent dedication to one ideology or another, preferably the dominant one in whatever nation they represent. I'm looking at you Cortez.

[Clearsighted]

I can't really imagine it in a form where it was an appealing opportunity, cultures generally frown on that kind of crap.  The best option if everyone wants an easy mode pvp experience would be to have another nation that pilfered from Nak... but anything short of Tuluk is going to get spanked pretty quick for that kind of behaviour.

Any of you historionic people feel like posting more on the cultural and political conditions under which raiding can flourish?  Because, as Tisi has said, we know that it has sometimes been successful in at least the mid-term (Danes vs. the British Isles, etc.).  A society might not successfully raid another for many generations, but a skilled raider really can make a successful, life-long career of it.

A resource-poor culture within reach of a rich one that is both geographically and politically decentralized?

Historically most of the examples of sustained cultures of "raiders" are nationally supported enterprises.  Vikings or privateers are both good examples, but both worked because said raiders weren't bandits... they were state sponsored, so their actions were ignored, even congratulated, and they had a safe port to return to.   It's not quite the same as buying a sword and running around the outskirts of a city telling everyone and their dog to hand over their wallet.

If we want flourishing raiders, Nak could sell licenses and allow its people to attack Tuluki, or tribals, or whoever else and return to the safety of the city.    But that's at the mercy of ic events and politics, and not on the menu currently. Also, if it were to happen don't come crying when the political atmosphere shifts and you find yourself on a gallows.

Personally I think that situation could be a lot of fun, but I'd be sure to qualify that a role like that would need to interact with the virtual world and npcs more heavily than pcs, playing a character that subsists entirely off of attacks on other pcs is a bit ludicrous... not to mention dangerous.

Bank robbers, horse thieves, purse snatchers and thugs are always going to lead short, miserable lives. It's how it goes. They aren't noble professions.

There's no mystery to it. Raiding is hard work, and only genuinely rises when it is significantly easier and more profitable than tilling the earth, looking after your flock or dying of starvation. Or living in misery and oppression. In Armageddon, there are two things that work against the natural tendencies to raid...Number one is that half the PCs that play directly represent or loyally work for those that do the most oppressing. The vast majority of the rest are given extremely comfortable existences, so long as they have the remotest inclination for it. Why take up raiding when you can be an aide to the Lady Templar? Working for the Merchant Houses is EXTREMELY comfortable. The only real 'civilized' Clan that has any kind of poverty or hardship is the T'zai Byn.

So those that take up raiding fall into either two categories: A) Those looking for a challenge and B) Those that are a bit suicidal and impulsive to begin with.

Sometimes, you get a good group together, but even when you do, raider mortality is high because of the overwhelming force that the established organizations can project.

It can take ten or fifteen days on a mundane raider PC to really become proficient. Most people that live inside the law, being coddled with all the food and water and lockers they can handle, do not survive that long. So naturally, few raiders do. And the most successful are 99% of the time, those who went rogue later in life after coming up the easy way.

The closest I've seen Arm come to any kind of real longterm raider mentality that didn't depend on the overwhelming charisma of one or two people, are the more hostile D-elf tribes.

[Qzzrbl]

This thread makes me want to knock over a caravan.

[Riev]

This thread makes me want to knock over a caravan.

We're sorry, but Wagon and Caravan Making is currently closed. Please try one of our other, fully integrated crafting schools such as Raiding. You can CARVE out your future!


Sorry. I'm a bit knackered.

[Krath]

Could we -please- archive and maybe sticky this thread? It has a -lot- of good tips and pointers!

[Vessol]

Probably the biggest problem with raiding I see is this:

Raider enters from the east.

Raider starts emoting out and roleplaying raiding yous.

You notice Raider is not nice and is not here to say 'Hullo'.

stand

mount kank

e
e
e
n
e
e
e

[brytta.leofa]

stand
mount kank

Stinging sand swirls around you.
A grizzle-furred ratlon carries you south.
Sandy Wastes [NSFW]
A large obsidian deposit rises out of the shifting sands.
The tall, muscular man is standing here, looking exhausted.
A yellow kank is standing here, looking tired.
Swinging down from a grizzle-furred ratlon, you dismount, nodding to the tall, muscular man.
The tall, muscular man says, in sirihish,
  "hi, hows it going."
You tell the tall, muscular man, squinting up at the sun as you lead a grizzle-furred ratlon towards a large obsidian deposit, in sirihish,
  "The land thirsts."
The tall, muscular man says, in sirihish,
  "yeah."
You draw an obsidian stabbing sword from your back, in a smooth motion.
You begin guarding a yellow kank.

[LoD]

Probably the biggest problem with raiding I see is this:

Raider enters from the east.

Raider starts emoting out and roleplaying raiding yous.

You notice Raider is not nice and is not here to say 'Hullo'.

stand

mount kank

e
e
e
n
e
e
e

And this behavior is one of the major contributing factors to the issues that likely surround PC raiding groups, because it perpetuates a viscous cycle that ends up with a lot of dead PC's.

My observations in many, many raids were that about 90% of all players we attempted to raid using RP first and code second would elect to spam coded commands rather than respond to the situation.  Very rarely did we encounter the people that would allow their characters to be raided.  Eventually, this behavior forced us to adapt our raiding styles to take a heavy-handed coded approach where we would instantly subdue PC's moving into our "room" to even create a chance to interact.

It felt as if we were having to force people to RP with us through the use of code.

Even in the clutches of a mammoth half-giant or a beastly mul, probably 90% of all players we attempted to raid would immediately struggle against the subdue and attempt to escape.  Even when they were told there would be consequences.  Even when threatened with their life.  They were SO against losing any of their previous belongings, or to submit to the power of another character, that they were willing to lose their character instead.

We had no intention of killing most people.  Dead people can't bring you more loot.  They can't spread word of your fearsome reputation.  There's no story to be told, at least not ICly.  However, I found the general behavior of the player base to be particularly discouraging to the raider archetype.  Even 1-on-1, the encounters that I had with people when trying to bully or raid them in the middle of nowhere generally resulted in them running or attempting to kill me -- all over my requested fee of 50 coins.

What results from all of these knee-jerk, hard-coded responses on the part of the victims are an adaptation on the part of the raiders to match your play.  The result is a group of raiders that begins to completely dominate the coded aspect of every encounter to even have a chance at RP.  And this heavy handed game play resulted in a lot of PC death.  While playing my raider, I was involved in the deaths of more PC's than all of the rest of my characters combined for a period of fifteen years.

Was it because we/I were bloodthirsty or irresponsible?  I would like to say no, since my tendencies are not to PK unless it's absolutely necessary.  Was it partially because of the nature of the business?  Sure, there were always people gunning for us with a bone to pick or, more likely, a sword to swing.  However, it was largely this battle for coded supremacy, waged simply to have an opportunity to interact with someone and create a scene, that ultimately resulted in so many PC deaths.  The Imms won't want to sanction, promote, or support any group of players whose MO (mission objective) will likely result in the deaths of several PC's, regardless of whether those deaths are deliberately planned or simply a byproduct of the encounter.

Those are some of the other challenges facing raiders and raiding groups in the game, and I don't see any intelligent solution on the horizon since much of the problem exists between the players themselves.  If the players won't allow themselves to be dominated, the already small window of opportunity that exists for a meaningful scene between a raider and victim often closes entirely.

And that's unfortunate, because it can be an incredibly exciting and interesting event.

-LoD

[staggerlee]

Re: LoD

In the next incarnation of Arm, or even in this one, I'd love to see more mundane methods of immobilizing your enemies/victims without killing them.  Nets, snare traps, more powerful guard/subdue commands, hell even a movement delay in desert rooms. 

To some extent players will always behave that way, as silly as it is. The issue is that bolting is too easy.  It's a relatively effective tactic in real life too, but only if you're not cornered or in the middle of an open plain.

Out of all my suggestions I think that a more powerful guard command coupled with a movement delay while off the road would be the best solution, and the most fun to work with. 

North road: (exits= n/s)

A raider begins guarding the north exit.
A raider begins guarding the south exit.
100/100/100>n
The raider steps in front of you!
100/100/100>run
100/100/100>e
You try to run but the raiders intercept you, subduing you!
A raider has you held tightly.
100/100/100>flee
You struggle against the raider and he squeeze more tightly, choking you.
100/100/90>

[Delstro]

You know staggerlee, what if we had movement delay -before- we physically changed rooms?

[staggerlee]

You know staggerlee, what if we had movement delay -before- we physically changed rooms?

That's kind of how I imagined it.  And actually doing that could even allow you to use it when changing terrain types, rather than every single room. (As I know most people seem to hate that idea)


The north road (exits: n, s, e, w)
>e
You make your way through some thorny underbrush and into the scrub (Brief delay)

I wouldn't imagine it would even need to be a very long delay, just long enough that you can't fill the buffer with movement commands, and that the particularly quick could hammer out a "subdue victim."


With that said however, the name of the game was roleplaying here.  Regarding the frustration of spam fleeing on the part of bandits, I'd say to some extent you're always just going to have to let it go. There's always going to be a higher number of people fighting or fleeing than is reasonable.   Code changes could diminish that reaction somewhat, but a thick skin will still be necessary. Put in a player complaint and move on to a more entertaining target that actually wants to roleplay....  It's frustrating, but that stuff comes up a lot in MUDs.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

• Command:
  >intercept muscular
  You position yourself to intercept the tall, muscular man if he moves.
• Mechanics:
     The intercept command takes into account a few factors such as size,
  speed, the guard skill, the rescue skill, watch, and the number of
  people you wish to intercept, or, the number of people set to intercept
  a specific target.
     Use of this command is applicable in scenarios such as preventing a
  criminal from escaping, or raiding a traveler, or chasing a beast about
  if a hunter. The agressor cease to be able to intercept once s/he
  enters combat.
     If a target is in combat, the applicability of this command changes.
  If the target flees, combat will stop, but there is a chance that
  non-combatant interceptors in the same room can keep him/her from
  leaving the scene.

[brytta.leofa]

Command:
>intercept muscular
You position yourself to intercept the tall, muscular man if he moves.

I like this very much.  Similar to subdue, but calling out exactly what you're trying to do (or prevent).