Touch in ARM cultures

[Gimfalisette]

One of the things I've noticed over time playing ARM is that most of us play like Americans. (A lot of us are Americans, or Canadians, which for many cultural purposes is pretty similar.) Despite best efforts at really portraying Nakkis or Tulukis or elves or tribals, in some very subtle ways our characters still act like Americans. A particular effect that I've seen on our mutual play is that, just like Americans, rarely do characters touch each other; the notable exceptions being sexual pairs and aggressive movements. Beyond those two types of touch, even family members, tribemates, trusted clanmates, etc. do not touch each other. This is, of course, just like Americans; outside of sexual touch, or affection granted to very young children, many Americans never touch any other person.

In many cultures in the real world, this avoidance of touching would be intensely out of place. Physical affection is often expressed between same-sex friends, between family members, etc.

Touching is treated differently from one country to another. Acceptable touch varies by cultural group. In the Thai culture, touching someone's head may be thought rude. Remland and Jones (1995) studied groups of people communicating and found that in England (8%), France (5%) and the Netherlands (4%) touching was rare compared to their Italian (14%) and Greek (12.5%) sample.

Stoeltje (2003) wrote about how Americans are 'losing touch' with this important communication skill. During a study conduced by University of Miami School of Medicine, Touch Research Institutes, American children were said to be more aggressive than their French counterparts while playing at a playground. It was noted that French women touched their children more often than the American parents.

Other cultures are often more OK with simple physical proximity, too:

Hall notes that different cultures maintain different standards of personal space. In Latin cultures, for instance, those relative distances are smaller, and people tend to be more comfortable standing close to each other; in Nordic cultures the opposite is true. Realizing and recognizing these cultural differences improves cross-cultural understanding, and helps eliminate discomfort people may feel if the interpersonal distance is too large ("stand-offish") or too small (intrusive). Comfortable personal distances also depend on the culture, social situation, gender, and individual preference.

Aside from rampant Americanism, one reason ARM characters may not touch one another much is because we, the players, are all afraid of power-emoting on each other. Yet, in my experience it is possible to develop relationships of OOC trust with other players so that touching can happen without the power-emoting concern. Between buddies, perhaps an arm around the shoulders; between siblings, a playful, light slap on the cheek; etc. Surely if we can be OK doing virtual touching with virtual lovers, we can expand the concept to other intimately-related characters

I don't have any particular recommendations about what ARM cultures should be like when it comes to touch and physical proximity. I just wanted to put it out there that this is a potential area of expansion of your character's cultural identity. One thing I would suggest is that physicality would probably be much more frequent and normal between family members, tribemates, or even trusted clanmates; the people who are for sure on your side.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I have also found it strange. I have tried to change that a little around me.

[Marauder Moe]

I think definitely some of it is the emote issue.  To do it "properly", first you should emote some desire to initiate contact (aka handshake, hug, platonic kiss on the cheek), the other player needs to respond with an emote about acceptance or rejection, then one or both of you need to emote the actual manner in which the act was performed.  It's very interactive (OOCly) compared to a verbal greeting or a wave (and typically those would occur too).

Even handshakes are less frequent Zalanthas (especially so these days I think).

[Shiroi Tsuki]

If you ever travel to those more 'affectionate' countries, as an American, you tend to really notice the difference.  And honestly, sometimes it can be hard to tell if your new female friend is holding your hand because you're friends, or is holding your hand to flirt with you.

I could definitely see the level of comfort with physical affection being described in future documents, as part of helping to understand a certain geographical area culturally. 

[Tisiphone]

Perhaps there might be a difference, as well. Tulukis may not touch one another as often; they certainly have sexual tactile segregation, and caste classes tend to lead to distancing intimate (read: tactile) interaction.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

>em offers a scrawny hand to ~hardy.

The hardy man takes your hand in his.

>em shakes %hardy hand weakly, nodding respectfully.

V.S.

>em waves at ~hardy in greeting

The hardy man waves back at you.

It's one emote more. Not so hard to handle, I think. Tradition is what it is that has established a culture of nods and bows and waves, but no handshakes or unromantic hugs. Handshakes should certainly be a sign of trust. If you note, the hand used to shake generally is the right hand, also commonly known as the swordarm. In shaking somebody's hand, you offer yourself to their mercy, since now you are unable to move with your swordarm should you be attacked by the friend's henchmen.

[Gimfalisette]

I think definitely some of it is the emote issue.  To do it "properly", first you should emote some desire to initiate contact (aka handshake, hug, platonic kiss on the cheek), the other player needs to respond with an emote about acceptance or rejection, then one or both of you need to emote the actual manner in which the act was performed.  It's very interactive (OOCly) compared to a verbal greeting or a wave (and typically those would occur too).

Even handshakes are less frequent Zalanthas (especially so these days I think).

It is definitely more complex and more challenging than simply grinning or nodding at other characters. But I find it much more fun, too.

I'm not sure about the need for an "initiating" action. Sometimes that is true. But when trust is OOCly already established between two characters, then I find this is fine:

Code Select Expand

The tawny, war-braided man sighs and slumps heavily against you from his barstool.

With amused affection, nudging him not enough to push him away, you ask the tawny,
war-braided man, in sirihish: "Long day, eh, brother?"


By trust being "OOCly established," I mean that our characters have some type of relationship and obviously we enjoy playing together. We've interacted before and there's a history. Not that there is OOC communication necessary about how touch is to happen.

[NoteworthyFellow]

I could definitely see the level of comfort with physical affection being described in future documents, as part of helping to understand a certain geographical area culturally. 

I'd love to see little things like this in cultural documentation, personally.  Cultural docs are one of my favorite parts of the game, and I try to follow them as well as I can (even if I don't do very well at it, like with most tribal cultures).

Perhaps there might be a difference, as well. Tulukis may not touch one another as often; they certainly have sexual tactile segregation, and caste classes tend to lead to distancing intimate (read: tactile) interaction.

Tuluk is, overall, less outwardly obvious than Allanak, culturally.  Touch could be a (forgive the adjective) subtle way to convey various meanings.  I think perhaps touch would be rare between castes, but between members of the same caste, it may be more common than in Allanak, especially since, at least in terms of fashion, Tuluk seems a little more sexually/sensually permissive, and so perhaps less uptight about whether touch is sexual in nature or not.

[Is Friday]

All the times I have tried to be friendly and touchy in game, people really assume the wrong way.

Maybe in... 4-5 different cultures/locations that I've tried. Even with friends of my characters.

[Marauder Moe]

Don't get me wrong.  I'm not arguing against kinesthetic greetings, just trying to explain why they're not popular.

I think in absence of a social context where they're expected, people will favor the greeting that is OOCly simpler, less intrusive, and less risky (having a handshake rejected is a bigger social insult than a wave not being returned).

[Gimfalisette]

All the times I have tried to be friendly and touchy in game, people really assume the wrong way.

Maybe in... 4-5 different cultures/locations that I've tried. Even with friends of my characters.

Definitely an effect of our American bias. We (as players) believe that all touch is sexual in nature. Very unfortunate.

I've had some really great experiences with mutual touch between family member characters and friend characters, though. It's amazing what it does to make the relationships seem more real.

I think in absence of a social context where they're expected, people will favor the greeting that is OOCly simpler, less intrusive, and less risky (having a handshake rejected is a bigger social insult than a wave not being returned).

Yeah. I'm sure that's true. I just would really like to see more variety and meaning in interactions. In fact, I kind of think we could come up with greetings that are more interesting and offer more layers of meaning than handshakes, even.

[nyrk]

Zalanthas is hot and gritty.

People may not want to touch each other, if they can help it.  Everyone is probably hot, and their clothes are sticking to themselves because of sweat, with their loincloths giving themselves wedgies.

It may just plain be uncomfortable.

[Shiroi Tsuki]

Whether or not a touch is considered sexual in nature is entirely based on the situation.  For instance, you and a friend might be sitting together on the beach in your suits, and you might briefly lay your hand on her bare leg.  That is going to be a lot more permissible than if you and a friend are conversing at a cocktail party, and you slide your hand up her skirt to rest in the exact same spot on her leg.  One is just circumstantial, the other implies sexual.

It might be perfectly admissible for members of even opposite castes to exchange hugs, kisses on the cheeks, kisses on the mouth, as a greeting (provided the caste isn't considered 'unclean' by the other caste).  Currently, were an aide and her employer to exchange a chaste kiss on the mouth, everyone in the immediate vicinity would think they're banging.  .. Well, most people thinks aides and employers are always banging anyway, so maybe it wouldnt' be the end of the world.

[Gimfalisette]

Zalanthas is hot and gritty.

People may not want to touch each other, if they can help it.  Everyone is probably hot, and their clothes are sticking to themselves because of sweat, with their loincloths giving themselves wedgies.

It may just plain be uncomfortable.

So that would explain why southern Europeans and people from the Middle East are more touch-y than northern Europeans? In short: No. The "it's so hot" argument is non-explanatory.

[Marauder Moe]

What is the explanation, then?

If casual touching is "healthy" and promotes trust, it actually sounds un-Zalanthan to me. 

[Shiroi Tsuki]

I'm not a social anthropologist, so I'm not really sure what the explanation is.  I think it would be something really interesting to look into, though.  The cultures that are more touchy do seem to be in warmer climates.  Maybe it has to do with how hard it is to touch people if you're both bundled up against sub-freezing temperatures 

[Gimfalisette]

I'm not a social anthropologist, so I'm not really sure what the explanation is.  I think it would be something really interesting to look into, though.  The cultures that are more touchy do seem to be in warmer climates.  Maybe it has to do with how hard it is to touch people if you're both bundled up against sub-freezing temperatures 

I don't recall there being an explanation tendered when I was studying this stuff before. Anthropologists don't always try to explain everything; often, they just observe and note.

If casual touching is "healthy" and promotes trust, it actually sounds un-Zalanthan to me. 

Trust is not un-Zalanthan at all. Unearned trust is what is un-Zalanthan. But even in the real world, I don't know of any cultures where rampant social touching of strangers happens. I'm not really talking about casual touching. Touch is a language of its own.

[FuSoYa]

My PCs have often grabbed shoulders, patted legs, gripped knees, touched arms and whatnot... it's part of the way my characters are I suppose. 

That being said, I do not like doing handshakes for some reason IG.

So, yea... if you want to touch me or my PCs go for it.

Brandon

[Dalmeth]

Definitely an effect of our American bias. We (as players) believe that all touch is sexual in nature. Very unfortunate.

Which America are you from?  Seriously, it's not that uncommon for people to shake hands or give hugs, even among those who are just friends.

I tend to think the reason it's rarer in Armageddon because it largely requires a greater amount of interaction.  One person waves to another, the other waves back, same thing with nods, but if you hug someone, there is no symmetrical response.  Put simply, touch is very complicated, far more information is transmitted through touch than through words.  It can be hard to portray it accurately in just the one minute that most people devote to casual greetings.

I'm all for it, but that's just the reality of the game we play where we have to type everything out.

[Malken]

Don't mix in Canada with you American bunch

As a form of greetings, at least toward the women (When it's in a friendly meeting, not business-like, of course), we tend to kiss both cheeks, even if the person is a stranger.
At least in Quebec, much like the Europeans do.

When I moved to the USA, and I tried that on a girlfriend's mother, she just froze like I was about to rape her or something.

In game, me and my tribesmates were all very touchy, one of my PC's cousin, a male, was always giving my PC affectionate squeezes, I guess much like
"manly" hugs, and I never minded it.

All of my PCs touch a lot, but I don't think that's very surprising to any of you 

[Shiroi Tsuki]

Which America are you from?  Seriously, it's not that uncommon for people to shake hands or give hugs, even among those who are just friends.

I have never seen two men or women walk down the street holding hands in America unless it definitely seemed to be a sexually-based sort of contact.  I saw this quiet frequently when I was out of the country, among people who were obviously just friends.  Also, kissing people who are friends or acquaintances is a lot more common in other countries.

We do shake hands.  We do sometimes, in some contexts, hug people who are friends or acquaintances.  But there is a lot of casual touching that isn't done as frequently in America as elsewhere, and that I see a lot of on Arm than I might expect, so I also understand where Gimf's coming from.

[Delstro]

When an appropriate level of trust has been developed between the players of characters, so they are both comfortable that the other won't go on a power emoting rampage. I have had a few different experiences about this.

In tribes, especially d-elf tribes, I think touching would be a major part of keeping the tribe together. They keep all their belongings together in chests, each one doesn't have their own chest to use. D-elves has the greatest amount of trust for their tribe, IMHO, than any other instance in Armageddon. What better way to foster friendship, love, and understanding than to physically show it to each other?

My previously enslaved PCs would always hate touching other beings. When they were enslaved they were only touched in negative ways to be beat, harrased, etc. Anyone sneaking a touch on them is liable to freak them out.

My normal, 9-5 working PCs don't like being touched because of those nasty skinnies always trying to nick my shit. Anyone could be trying to nick my shit and I don't like being touched.

My lonely, ranger-type pcs would always be looking for physical affection from other pcs. They need it.

It depends on the PCs and cultures they came from.

[Mood]

This thread made me realize that I'm a very touchy-feely person IRL.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I think we're looking past greetings. What about just normal interaction, such as physical violence that proceeds coded violence?

With narrowed eyes, reaching out to put a sinewy hand on his shoulder, you say to the dirty, narrow-framed man, in sirihish:
     "Eh, so, Rinther, tell me what you know about that buried sack o'coin, mmm?"

Shrinking back from you, the dirty, narrow-framed man says to you, in rinthi-accented sirihish:
     "Uh. Uh. Uh."

The first sentence mocks him. With your heavy black beard muffling your words a bit, and your sinewy hand still seeking his shoulder, you say to the dirty, narrow-framed man, in sirihish:
     "Uh, Uh, Uh. That ain't no answer, you scrawny half-human. I'm a nice one, for a soldier of the Arm, hrm? All you gotta do is tell me what I wanna hear, and I let you run off, see, ehh?"

Squeaking, unable to shrink back further, the dirty, narrow-framed man says to you, in rinthi-accented sirihish:
     "Uh. Uh. Uh. I swear I don't know whatcha talkin' abou'."

Leering and digging hard into his shoulder with your long fingers, tucking a jade-crossed longsword away, and bodying up on him so as to force him back into the wall, you say to the dirty, narrow-framed man, in sirihish:
     "Yeh? S'too damned bad, that. But we gonna see what you -do- know, you turd-cutter. I got this razor I used to shave with. Now it ain't sharp enough for all that precision shit, but Highlord curse me if it ain't still sharp enough to carve a stone o'flesh."

Pressing the dirty, narrow-framed man into the cool stone wall with your shoulder, your breath hot on his cheek, you get a used plain obsidian razor from your black militia cloak, your pale eyes staring into his dark eyes from less than an inch away.

Deliberately, you brandish a used plain obsidian razor, and trail it up the dirty, narrow-framed man's right thigh.

Pinning him back to the wall with a forearm across his throat, and trailing the razor over his sandcloth-covered stomach, your voice a little nasal and jittery, you say to the dirty, narrow-framed man, in sirihish:
     "I canna lie to you, ol' Amos. I get kinda pleased when I gotta carve some info outta someone."

Shaking, a dark stain creeping down the linen pants he wears, his eyes closed, the dirty, narrow-framed man says to you, in rinthi-accented sirihish:
     "Uh, uh, Uh. I tell, I tell ... don't cut me, don't cut me, Big Behn. Don't CUT me."

The morbid quality of your voice fading, your tone suddenly business like as you pull the razor away from his belly button, you say to the dirty, narrow-framed man, in sirihish:
     "I like that, I do. Go on, get to squawking, boyyo."

[staggerlee]

What is the explanation, then?

If casual touching is "healthy" and promotes trust, it actually sounds un-Zalanthan to me. 

A Culture of Violence:

There is a very strong argument for a place like Gaj having a certain comfort zone.  I've taken defense seminars where they talk about how tone, posture, and personal space can indicate whether or not someone is a threat, the danger of letting them inside your guard, and how to aggravate or defuse a situation with touch.  Your career criminal, mercenary or bar room brute in the Gaj is going to be very aware of those things, even if he can't express them on a rational level.

Domestic Culture:

On the other hand.   I think we should discern between the player population (IE: back stabbing political schemers, hired mercenaries, career soldiers, adventurers, thugs, thieves, assassins...) and the working bum.  Most people in Zalanthan cities struggle with violence and poverty on a domestic level, and probably turn to interpersonal relations for comfort and support. That could mean family, friends or whatever, and is going to be a totally different social scene from bar culture or whatever.

Population:

For the most part North America is a spacious place, and we're used to having a lot of room.  We have our own cars, we have big houses, with big yards, and we're used to having room to avoid each other in public. A personal 'bubble' or whatever you want to call it.  If you go to some European cities (and I'd imagine New York is more this way) you start to get more congested, smaller living area, more public transit, narrower sidewalks, less personal room.   The final extreme is somewhere like Tokyo, where you pack people onto subways like sardines, sleep in cubicles and deal with crowds like we never see.

Now the question is, how crowded is a Zalanthan city?  Are they used to being packed in shoulder to shoulder, or are we talking Spaghetti Western setting here where you can swagger down the middle of mainstreet at rushhour, and if someone else steps across your path it's a challenge.  I lean toward a middle ground, but it's worth considering.

Generalizations:

As several people have pointed out, not everywhere in America is the same, not every group of friends is the same, and we're not all comfortable with the same things.  That's without even worrying about the rest of the world.     So when discussing this, we need to drop the term "Zalanthan" and think about Red Storm, Tuluk, Luir's, Nak, the tribes, and everywhere else.  All different comfort levels, for all different cultures.    I assume that the word "Zalanthan" means "The Gaj" in most cases, but I'd caution people to clarify that difference. It matters.