Touch in ARM cultures

[staggerlee]

Power Emoting:

Touch can lead to power emoting, but it doesn't have to.

I think that this would be perfectly acceptable:
Emote leans in to give ~hairy a quick kiss on the cheek.

If the target doesn't like that, they can respond with:
Emote pulls his head back at the last minute and hurls a devastating punch at %templar cheek.

Who can then respond as they see fit:
Emote turns too late and is rocked back with the force of the blow, causing a few seconds of delay before ^me can summon the guards to execute ~hairy.


Emoting touch is just a matter of playing along and phrasing your emotes well, it isn't that awkward or difficult. And as people have said, it gets easier the longer you play with someone and as you establish your boundaries. 

[BlackMagic0]

Definitely an effect of our American bias. We (as players) believe that all touch is sexual in nature. Very unfortunate.

Which America are you from?  Seriously, it's not that uncommon for people to shake hands or give hugs, even among those who are just friends.

Depends on where you live. Around (Wisconsin) here I randomly hug people that I have just met, and do not mind touching people at all.
I am actually a very touch oriented person.

I went to a meeting to join up with the IGDA student-chapter at my college and gave a person I had never met before in my life a hug.
I touch everyone from the friend that I barely know, to close like-a-brother-friends, to my family..... I will admit I have some friends that do not like touching, so I will not touch them out of respect for them. By touch I mean anything from a subtle hand on the shoulder, pat on the back, hand shake, gang-hand-shake, hug, semi-hug, and so forth.

People that are freaked out by touching and always steer away from it are weird.


So in short I do not believe that all American players have the same bias as Gimfalisette is pointing out.

Which America are you from?  Seriously, it's not that uncommon for people to shake hands or give hugs, even among those who are just friends.

I have never seen two men or women walk down the street holding hands in America unless it definitely seemed to be a sexually-based sort of contact.  I saw this quiet frequently when I was out of the country, among people who were obviously just friends.  Also, kissing people who are friends or acquaintances is a lot more common in other countries.

Lies and Slander. I kiss my friends on the cheek (family/friends - mostly women friends and all family.. but a few guy friends have gotten one.) and have even walked down the street with my arm around my friends. I've only ever held female-friend's hands though. Unless joking around and skipping down the street with my friend's hand in mine singing "We're off to see the wizard" counts?

[Gimfalisette]

I think we're looking past greetings. What about just normal interaction, such as physical violence that proceeds coded violence?

I've had a number of scenes like that with people, either playing the aggressor or the victim. With the right partner, it's intensely fun. But it takes a lot of OOC trustworthiness from both players: The aggressor needs to not over-emote their power, and the victim needs to be willing to be victimized.

Now the question is, how crowded is a Zalanthan city?  Are they used to being packed in shoulder to shoulder, or are we talking Spaghetti Western setting here where you can swagger down the middle of mainstreet at rushhour, and if someone else steps across your path it's a challenge.  I lean toward a middle ground, but it's worth considering.

IIRC, Caravan Road in Allanak is intensely packed with humanoid and vehicular traffic--nearly wall-to-wall. Allanak is 500k people, but I'm not certain of the actual physical size of the city. My impression is that it's not huge.

So when discussing this, we need to drop the term "Zalanthan" and think about Red Storm, Tuluk, Luir's, Nak, the tribes, and everywhere else.  All different comfort levels, for all different cultures.    I assume that the word "Zalanthan" means "The Gaj" in most cases, but I'd caution people to clarify that difference. It matters.

At the Gaj: Proxemics--everyone is shoved all up against everyone else. You're elbow-to-elbow at the bar with a half-elf or a magicker. Moving through the tavern itself can be problematic at times, and the brawls that happen may impact other people who are not brawling. However, touching other people inadvertently is not the same as touching other people on purpose. So the Gaj isn't a gauge for the whole culture.

Allanak as a whole: Touch is a form of dominance communication. The betters touch the lessers with pats on the head, shoulder, taking a hand for a purpose.

Tuluk: Touch might be highly ritualized, and definitely will communicate subtleties of information. A dominance or status message may be included; a commoner or slave would NEVER touch someone of the upper castes first.

Tribal elves and humans: Within tribes, touching should be more commonplace. Trust is inherent to the relationship. There should be an openness and some equality in the touching, or a teaching relationship implied.

[Rairen]

Tuluk is, overall, less outwardly obvious than Allanak, culturally.  Touch could be a (forgive the adjective) subtle way to convey various meanings.  I think perhaps touch would be rare between castes, but between members of the same caste, it may be more common than in Allanak, especially since, at least in terms of fashion, Tuluk seems a little more sexually/sensually permissive, and so perhaps less uptight about whether touch is sexual in nature or not.

QFT.  Not in so much as physicial contact would be verboten or even frowned upon in Allanak (the lack of physicial interaction is an OOC bias, not an IC one) as that it could have different meanings between the cities and cause it's own culture-clashes.  (Am certainly not speaking from experience. *cough*)

The harder part is persuading players that touch is not always an indication of sexual desire.  It's a bit of a circle:  when someone touches your character, you wonder if they are attracted to you.  You wonder that because the other 100 times it's happened to you (from a non-relation), it's always been about desire.  Now, to blur that line, you would need to touch people in non-sexual situations so that it's not 100% of the time about sex.  However, when you do that, the receiving player wonders if you are attracted to their character...

Two things to draw from the above:
1.  The non or rare touchers out there are missing a wondrous opportunity to mess with players' heads.
2.  At the same time, I don't blame them for not wanting to deal with the misconception because they know that the pbase will apply an OOC bias to their actions.  (I'm always in favor of anyone who wants to cause these situations - or even use them to their advantage -  but I sympathize with players who don't want to deal with the fallout because the RP is not their cup of tea.)

[Gimfalisette]

Lies and Slander. I kiss my friends on the cheek (family/friends - mostly women friends and all family.. but a few guy friends have gotten one.) and have even walked down the street with my arm around my friends. I've only ever held female-friend's hands though. Unless joking around and skipping down the street with my friend's hand in mine singing "We're off to see the wizard" counts?

What you do as an individual is not the same thing as what happens culturally. North America is one of the least touch-friendly areas of our planet; truth from anthropology. On average, Americans (and American ARM players) will share this bias. That's just the way culture works; it blinds us to other possibilities, other potential modes of living.

[BlackMagic0]

Lies and Slander. I kiss my friends on the cheek (family/friends - mostly women friends and all family.. but a few guy friends have gotten one.) and have even walked down the street with my arm around my friends. I've only ever held female-friend's hands though. Unless joking around and skipping down the street with my friend's hand in mine singing "We're off to see the wizard" counts?

What you do as an individual is not the same thing as what happens culturally. North America is one of the least touch-friendly areas of our planet; truth from anthropology. On average, Americans (and American ARM players) will share this bias. That's just the way culture works; it blinds us to other possibilities, other potential modes of living.

Everybody in the town that I lived in was pretty touch oriented and the population was not small, actually in all -THREE- towns I have lived in within Wisconsin, two southern Wisconsin and one central Wisconsin. So meh, most Wisconsinites I know are very touch oriented.
So I still believe it really depends on the area of the US you are in...

[Shiroi Tsuki]

Lies and Slander...

I said that I have never seen it happen.  I haven't.  I will grant that other people's personal experiences are likely different 

Regardless, it isn't about whether or not there are outliers on the touchiness front in North America.  I'm sure there are.  Just like I'm sure there are other fathers (like mine) who never even touch their own children after around age six or so, to skew it in the other direction.

I would just like to see some cultural guidelines on Arm.  Maybe not in this version, but definitely in the next incarnation.  Culture docs and portrayals are some of my favorite things in this game, and just as a certain level of touching might be geographically based around the world of even in North America, I'd like to see it that way in Arm too.  We aren't on opposite sides of the argument.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

So I ... believe it really depends on the area of the US you are in...

Gotta agree with him here. On the block, a hand-clasp and half-hug is common amongst remotely friendly folk. Dap (fist to fist 'handshake') is common up to and even including those you inwardly hate. People get clapped on tha back all the time. Only folks that you really disdain get no physical contact.

[Rairen]

Lies and Slander. I kiss my friends on the cheek (family/friends - mostly women friends and all family.. but a few guy friends have gotten one.) and have even walked down the street with my arm around my friends. I've only ever held female-friend's hands though. Unless joking around and skipping down the street with my friend's hand in mine singing "We're off to see the wizard" counts?

What you do as an individual is not the same thing as what happens culturally. North America is one of the least touch-friendly areas of our planet; truth from anthropology. On average, Americans (and American ARM players) will share this bias. That's just the way culture works; it blinds us to other possibilities, other potential modes of living.

Everybody in the town that I lived in was pretty touch oriented and the population was not small, actually in all -THREE- towns I have lived in within Wisconsin, 2 Southern Wisconsin and one central Wisconsin. So meh, most Wisconsinites I know are very touch oriented.
So I still believe it really depends on the area of the US you are in...

It does.  Midwesterners are different from Coasters (particularly urban coasters).  (My proof is in that I moved to Wisconsin from Pennsylvania, that I can see differences in interactions, but also that we get a nice class in 'how to behave if your customer is located in...' that covers all of these things above.  The fun dicotomy is that while the middle of the country is more touch-friendly, that they seem to like more personal space before and after contact.  The more urbane seem more comfortable with close quarters, up until the point of touch.)

[Gimfalisette]

Let me give you guys an example of what I mean:

Sidney Jarad, Psychologist, counted the number of contacts per hour.

• San Juan, Puerto Rico- 180
• Paris France, 110
• Gainsville, Florida 2
• London England- 0

This is contacts per hour by two people who are acquainted with one another.

All your friendly greeting hugs, you north Americans, do not add up to 180 touches per hour. This is why we call Latin American nations "high-touch," France is "medium-touch," and north America is "low-touch." You may personally, or your town may be, HIGHER in touching than another place in the United States...but that doesn't make you Brazilian. (Unless you are a native Brazilian now living in the US, in which case you probably understand what I'm talking about.)

[Malken]

Can't we just all pretend that a little tongue-to-tongue flick action is a common greeting in Zalanthas?

[BlazinDayz]

Can't we just all pretend that a little tongue-to-tongue flick action is a common greeting in Zalanthas?

Maybe with the cat people in Arm 2. Mrawr.

[Fool]

From memory, touch in real life serves as a way to gauge how much someone trusts you. If you touch their shoulder do they shy away? Do they feel comfortable returning the gesture in the future?.

Also serves as a way of sending a message to others. This person I am touching, we are close, we have trust, mess with one you mess with both. With opposite sex touching that may also be along the lines of "this person, they are mine, I have claimed them".

Could explain why 'westernised' societies use less touching. Demonstrating strong ties implies that you have weighed and measured people, which can offend those who you have found wanting. In western societies giving offense is generally avoided. Probably not due to niceness, rather due to the need to work closely with people you disdain, who may also become your superior down the track. Maybe.

[Yam]

Don't touch elves. You might catch it.

[Salt Merchant]

Don't mix in Canada with you American bunch

As a form of greetings, at least toward the women (When it's in a friendly meeting, not business-like, of course), we tend to kiss both cheeks, even if the person is a stranger.
At least in Quebec, much like the Europeans do.

I've never seen that, even in Quebec.

In any case, in today's legal environment, only a fool would touch a woman without some sort of blatant indication that's welcome first. Even a back pat can be cause for a lawsuit (e.g. created a hostile work environment). It's all according to what she decides in her head. I knew a pair of female students in university who inquired into having a male student charged with sexually harassing them, just for looking at them at the end of class. He had never approached them or said a word, but there it was. Fortunately they were told that there's no law against looking at people yet.

Women touching women is permissible and does happen. Men touching men is highly suspect (handshakes and playful punches to the shoulder are permissible). Women touching men is tantamount to an invitation (which however can be retroactively withdrawn at any time). It mostly just doesn't happen unless she's interested in him.

Even a man holding his own little daughter's hand is the subject of suspicion nowadays here.

Sooo... it's no great surprise that this translates into in-game behavior. 

[nyrk]

Since this thread got going I've noticed a lot more hand shaking going on in the game.
I think it's a good thing too.

[jhunter]

I don't think we need to be getting -more- touchy feely in Zalanthas as a whole. I can see tribal folks being a bit more but I pretty much think it's fine for the non-tribal people as a whole.

[staggerlee]

It isn't necessarily that the game needs more touching.
It's a matter of being aware of spatial relationships, and thinking about how much physical contact your character would or would not have with other people.   Questioning whether the current situation is in game culture or American culture is important as far as portraying an alien civilization I think.

It's like when people bring smell, temperature, environment, or anything else into their emotes. Details that bring the world alive.  The more people think about things like spatial relationships, the more alive their characters feel to me.

Of course I don't even have time to play lately, but that's a whole different story.

[jhunter]

It can be -both- game culture -and- American culture at the same time and there be absolutely -nothing- wrong with it. That is my feeling on it.
So we make it different from American culture, that would then make it like another existing RL culture most likely. I don't see how that is any sort of improvement on or problem with the way the game currently is.
Because people don't play more touch oriented characters simulating other non-American cultures that doesn't necessarily mean that people don't think about it when playing their characters.

[staggerlee]

It can be -both- game culture -and- American culture at the same time and there be absolutely -nothing- wrong with it. That is my feeling on it.
So we make it different from American culture, that would then make it like another existing RL culture most likely. I don't see how that is any sort of improvement on or problem with the way the game currently is.
Because people don't play more touch oriented characters simulating other non-American cultures that doesn't necessarily mean that people don't think about it when playing their characters.

It can be the same, I absolutely agree. Though as you pointed out in your previous post, it can also vary from region to region.
My feeling is that it's more important to ask these questions than to necessarily change anything.  If we ask the questions and are comfortable with the answers we come up with, than there's no need to change.  But the awareness builds richer culture and better rp.

I don't know if that makes sense. Maybe I'm just a giant geek for theory.,

[Gimfalisette]

Maybe I'm just a giant geek for theory.

I'm pretty sure there's no maybe about it

My biggest issue with touch in ARM cultures is that all cultures in ARM are currently the same. And they just shouldn't be. Nonverbal communication is the bulk of communication exchanged between people, and touch is a vital part of that.

Also, I'd really like to see players' RP expand beyond nodding, smiling, and brow-lifting. Touch is a whole 'nother set of stuff to emote, and a whole 'nother field of interaction to explore.

[solera]

Agree.  I can half kill my mates in the sparring ring, and they hardly bat an eyelid, but give them a casual poke with my finger, and watch them jump.

[LittleLostThief]

We can't all be touching each other now.  That just opens up the doorway to seal the deal that you'd absolutely in someone elses space.  Then they will just steal everything out of your pack.  I see how long you keep your pack open.  Nobody wants this.

[Manhattan]

I like this thread. It's not just about Zalanthan culture, it's about real American life too.

I wonder how appropriate it would be to emote kissing your friend on both cheeks like they do in European cultures.

[Yam]

Some tribes do that.