Encumbrance & Fighting

[Tisiphone]

Why don't we give it a good test-run?

We will. I am only speaking from experience about the lack of damage heavy armor absorbs. If heavy armor took as much damage as light armor, it would grow used and so forth at the same ratio, and probably faster. But it doesn't, and despite what Morg says, I am tempted to say that it's because it doesn't offer protection-for-weight on the same level that lighter armors do. Light armor always gets the used tag before heavy armor, exponentially.

Yeah, sorry, I noticed I've been snarky on the boards lately, and I'm trying to cut back. My question was meant more in the, "Hey, let's go do this because I'm curious and would like to give feedback to the staff, so maybe those of us who are in sparring positions should give it a good going through," rather than the, "Why don't you all shut up and test it before offering possible critiques," idiom.

[Zalanthan]

If heavy armor took as much damage as light armor, it would grow used and so forth at the same ratio, and probably faster. But it doesn't, and despite what Morg says, I am tempted to say that it's because it doesn't offer protection-for-weight on the same level that lighter armors do. Light armor always gets the used tag before heavy armor, exponentially.

I'm not that familiar with the in-game differences between armors but I would think light armor would start showing signs of wear and tear long before its heavier counterpart.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Agreed, but I doubt the current rate of wear is as correct as it should be. Which also means that I don't think that heavier armor absorbs as much as it should, or as often. Wearing heavy armor should make you hit less, dodge less, and use your armor more. With the new changes Morg's got in the mix, it better absorb more, or it'll become obsolete, particularly for humans.

And I like heavy armor, so I don't want it becoming obsolete.

To add to this, when I think about it: It's not that I don't like the change. I do, it's real. Here is the point. Encumberance should have nothing to do with whether my steel wyvren-etched helm absorbs blows or not. If I am standing stock still and am fully-plated, you should have to take a really good shot to even scratch me. By the same token, I should not be able to chase you to kingdom come. What I am saying is that I want the options to wander about with heavy but managable encumberance, shrugging off blows and sweeping my maul in true golem fashion, or to dance about in no armor and sting and slap and whittle away at my foe's defense. Yes, there should be massive differences in fighting styles, but not in balance. If my hands are empty or nearly empty when I am at heavy emcumbrance, then I should be able to function just fine, just slower, with my armor taking more blows.

And I shouldn't be able to go for RL years without ever having to repair my armor, heavy or not.

[Twilight]

I was a little concerned about the further advantage to half-giants and their ilk, who can pack a wagon in their pack and still walk around just fine.  However, the change to tailoring has relieved that.  Once everyone has tailored their garmet, at least.

I do wonder about NPCs though.  Not only the obvious "give back full of heavy stuff; kill NPC" thing, which could be solved by not having NPCs accept items unless a person commands them, or only accepting up to a certain weight, but also if NPCs have stuff loaded on them with this in mind.  That fully horror plate armored, low strength House guard now might be about as effective as a gimpka rat.

And last time I used heavy armor, 7DV, a year or two ago, it absorbed a lot.  A lot.  So I guess my experience varies from yours.

[Malken]

I was a little concerned about the further advantage to half-giants and their ilk, who can pack a wagon in their pack and still walk around just fine.  However, the change to tailoring has relieved that.  Once everyone has tailored their garmet, at least.

I do wonder about NPCs though.  Not only the obvious "give back full of heavy stuff; kill NPC" thing, which could be solved by not having NPCs accept items unless a person commands them, or only accepting up to a certain weight, but also if NPCs have stuff loaded on them with this in mind.  That fully horror plate armored, low strength House guard now might be about as effective as a gimpka rat.

Oh, now I feel bad about that poor mul who's carrying a whole bunch of large obsidian chunks somewhere in 'Nak, heh

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

And last time I used heavy armor, 7DV, a year or two ago, it absorbed a lot.  A lot.  So I guess my experience varies from yours.

*sigh* Alright, fine. I drop my argument. Maybe it is just me.

Sorry, Morg. Thanks for the change.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I really doubt that we'll see a buncha people handing crap to NPCs so that they can kill them. I mean, really ... have a bit of faith.

[manonfire]

> l in sack
many large unworked chunks of obsidian

em Flinging ~sack at %man chest, @ takes a flying leap at ^man, growling with a deep, seething bloodlust.

>give sack man; kill man


CAN I PLEASE?

[Gimfalisette]

No, because you used an emote instead of a command emote, and that's just lame.

[manonfire]

Your FACE is lame.

Oooo. Better put some ice on that burn.

[a strange shadow]

> l in sack
many large unworked chunks of obsidian

em Flinging ~sack at %man chest, @ takes a flying leap at ^man, growling with a deep, seething bloodlust.

>give sack man; kill man


CAN I PLEASE?

Awesome, but he doesn't get a chance to make a save roll and get out of the way.

So no.

[manonfire]

Oh well.

/pines for the days of the subdue/draw bug

[Gunnerblaster]

Wow. This sucks for desert elves.

*Sigh*

"Better start peelin' off them clothes, sharpie!"

[Lakota]

*sigh* Alright, fine. I drop my argument. Maybe it is just me.

You're not alone, and no, it's not just you.

[Malken]

Wow. This sucks for desert elves.

I don't think that desert elves are supposed to be wearing heavy armor, anyway..

[Gunnerblaster]

Wow. This sucks for desert elves.

I don't think that desert elves are supposed to be wearing heavy armor, anyway..

Poor strength = Tunic = Tunic heavy.

T.T

[Bogre]

I don't want to see this change make all warriors be copies with max strenght all wearing light armor to be as lightly encumbered as possible.

I'd rather have it be viable to fight heavily encumbered, if the armor was good enough, etc.

[Maso]

Honestly, I think the concern is that it makes heavy armor obsolete, frankly. You might be able to wear a suit of heavy armor as long as you have no pack, belts or anything else, not to mention the lack of protection-for-weight. And most characters do carry shit with them, so ...

I agree. And this makes me very sad.

[X-D]

I'm willing to take up the arguement 7DV.

My experiance on armors is the same as 7DV, the answer somebody else gave "heavy armor absorbes alot" is subjective at best. A lot could be 4 points instead of the two that the sandcloth takes. Before this change the amount of damage heavy armor prevented verses weight/enc penalty was marginal at best. Now, if you put in code that means you fight even 10% worse then you did before you have swung the balance and it is no longer worthwhile to wear heavy armor unless your PC is SILLY strong, and even then probobly not. The current difference in light leathers and sandcloth armors compared to heavy shell/chitin armors is rather small in my book. I also agree that since it is a fantesy game, I to also want the warrior that moves like a tank through a bunch of bow wielding halflings AND the nimble warrior able to dance his way around the tank...And everything in between.

[LoD]

A couple of suggestions:

> I would consider having one's encumbrance determined by a combination of strength, agility, and endurance because they can all play a part in one's ability to maintain a high level of fitness while loaded down with gear.  This would not only help to balance out the races and classes that don't have a lot of arm strength, but may have a lot of physical conditioning, it would also keep fighters from feeling the need to always pick strength first simply to be viable in combat wearing anything more than a few leathers.

> While probably impractical for Arm 1.0, I think this would be a perfect example of where PC armor crafter roles could really clean house.  Amateurs might be able to grab a heavy piece of shell or thick length of chitin and throw a couple straps on there, but real artisan crafters that could take an extremely protective material and create pieces of lightweight armor would become highly prized and sought after, especially since there's usually not a shortage of new blood in need of fine armor.

Just a couple of ideas.

-LoD

[Dalmeth]

I can't say I look forward to this.  My experience with the human range of strength is that at normal strength, a well-equipped hunter will only be able to wear a mix of sandcloth and leather.  Is that the way it should be?  I dunno.  If that hunter is lightly armed and has a tent, then there can't be any hunting done, because the weight limit is just about reached.

One thing that might help, though, is the ability to offload some weight during combat, and this could be done in two ways :

1. Allow people to remove items while in combat.  I honestly don't know why this is the way it is, which makes me wary of changing it.

2. Allow greater loads to be carried in the hands.  This is very limited currently what with the weight limits directly relating to weapons and shields, but it would be great if containers and the like could be evaluated separately or just by their size, as in too big to hold with one hand or even two.  With that, I can have my character carry a bag in his off hand and be armed in the other.  Just for flavor, I'd say he'd slung the bag over his shoulder.  If he's attacked, he just drops it and proceeds into combat.

[Ammut]

> I would consider having one's encumbrance determined by a combination of strength, agility, and endurance because they can all play a part in one's ability to maintain a high level of fitness while loaded down with gear.  This would not only help to balance out the races and classes that don't have a lot of arm strength, but may have a lot of physical conditioning, it would also keep fighters from feeling the need to always pick strength first simply to be viable in combat wearing anything more than a few leathers.

> While probably impractical for Arm 1.0, I think this would be a perfect example of where PC armor crafter roles could really clean house.  Amateurs might be able to grab a heavy piece of shell or thick length of chitin and throw a couple straps on there, but real artisan crafters that could take an extremely protective material and create pieces of lightweight armor would become highly prized and sought after, especially since there's usually not a shortage of new blood in need of fine armor.

Yes to the first, agree it's impractical for arm 1.0 for the second.

I like the code change, but don't want it to negatively affect the way people play warriors.

[a strange shadow]

Hunters, out in the scorching desert, should favor sandcloth and leather anyway....

That part I like and agree with. Down with plate armor in the desert.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

That part I like and agree with. Down with plate armor in the desert.

I'l agree with that, or rather, I'll agree with that in the sense of travelling in it.

[mansa]

I think it might be a good idea...

perhaps...

to have the guild warrior get some bonus or skill or something coded, to help them with heavy armours.

Just an idea.