Encumbrance & Fighting

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

No, I don't like that so much. No skills ... just realistic counter-balancing of options is all I ask. I say no skill because there are non-combative classes that do combative things and serve in certian ways so as to need armors for certian things.

[musashi]

I think the code change will turn out to be a positive addition to the game.

I believe that most people can still wear heavy armor without reaching the heavy encumberence level provided they don't try to put everything including the kitchen sink into their backpack and wander around with it all for days on end.

I think career soldiers should find the only real difference is that they have to remember to leave their excess junk at home when they go fighting.

As for hunters and the like, I always found it a little jarring for a "hunter" to be out "hunting" in a full suit of chitin armor with a kite shield and a bone-bladed bastard sword anyway. If this code change means that more outdoor-types will start wearing lighter armor because they'll know that they're going to get burdened down with pelts/bones/meat/ect ... I look at that as a positive change!

Per the tents the thing, I've never had a tent with any of my characters, but ... when I play rangers, they tend to carry a lot of extra equipment (like climbing gear, extra bandages, extra arrows above what would fit in their quiver, torches, extra water, ect ect) and to avoid having that burden the character down, I always just packed it onto his mount. They even sell saddlebags in-game so ... why not just do the same thing with a tent and you wouldn't have to worry?

[Armaddict]

I think moreso, 7DV, you'll see less people bulking up in terms of heavy armor unless they actually have the strength to support it.

No more decking out in silt-horror plate.  This has been an issue (albeit a minor one) for awhile.  A lot of people would simply load up on armor they knew absorbed a lot, encumber themselves, then ride mounted into combat to dismount there.  While I am in agreement with you in that some things will definitely be out of whack for a bit, I don't particularly like seeing heavy...HEAVY armor used that much in a desert world.  Travel light.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Bah. If he rides out to battle, dismounts, and fights in heavy armor, I don't see why it matters. Trust me, Armaddict (and you should know to do this), horror-plate already takes a shitload off one of your stats. Seriously. If I chose to pay for it and be restricted in a stat, why should I suddenly be unable to ... bah.

This desert world crap gets on my nerves sometimes because we can't grasp the fantasy part of it. If you really wanna be real about it, make it so that heavy armor does nothing but get you killed unless you happen to be mounted. Knights, the only soldiers to wear heavy armor, were mounted. When and if they got dismounted, they tended to die. So heavy armor footsoldiers didn't even exist in the real world.

But in fantasy, heavy armor is cool as fuck. You get to have all sorts of baroque crap and spikes and all sorts of gigs. I like fantasy, and I like the idea that I can be whatever I wanna be, including a slow-ass footsoldier in steel plate, if I wanna be.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Nonetheless, I think I should say this.

As with every code change in the world that I don't agree upon, I'll roll with it and adapt, because Zalanthas naked is cooler than SoI in elite gear.

[Twilight]

Hopefully, one cool by-product of this is that you will see desert elves actually using mounts as pack animals.  Since they wouldn't need to mount them at all now.  And I want the chance to steal a few back.

[mansa]

No, I don't like that so much. No skills ... just realistic counter-balancing of options is all I ask. I say no skill because there are non-combative classes that do combative things and serve in certian ways so as to need armors for certian things.

I always think that warriors should be the only people to be able to wear plate mail...  right?

Just like in World of Warcraft.  They should know how to fight with heavy armours. 

[House Rising Sun]

Re: Twinkery & giving items to someone to 'weigh them down'

This will not be tolerated, if you see this happen, complain, please include logs.  We will review the logs and then take appropriate removal of karma or banning (in extreme cases).

Re: Light encumbrance

The 'boost' you get for staying at light encumbrance is not getting a penalty.  There's no other benefit.

Re: Armor balancing

There is a separate issue regarding the damage absorption of heavy armor vs. it's weight that may or may not be addressed.

-There was once a time when twinkery this pc-deadly and this easy to pull off was restricted by simply making it codedly impossible rather than wagging the finger.

-I want to encourage reconsidering the idea of very very low encumbrance actually granting a bonus, based not on realism but the concept of a 'standard encounter,' that average roll results for Average Fighter X vs Average Monster Y assume that Fighter X is armed, healthy, alert, on his feet, two eyes, two legs, etc, all the way down to 'carrying the average amount of junk'.

-The benefits of utilizing cumbersome gear have to go hand in hand with the penalties. To make them separate issues makes them broken.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

No, I don't like that so much. No skills ... just realistic counter-balancing of options is all I ask. I say no skill because there are non-combative classes that do combative things and serve in certian ways so as to need armors for certian things.

I always think that warriors should be the only people to be able to wear plate mail...  right?

Just like in World of Warcraft.  They should know how to fight with heavy armours. 

We are not WOW. I would actually probably become angry if warriors gained a skill letting them use heavy armor better, and I play warriors faithfully. Why should an assassin not be able to wear heavy armor if they want to, and gain the same benefit from it as a warrior? There is no reason at all, if that assassin feels like serving in a combative position that he needs protection in. No. I just want to see heavy armor do heavy armor work, that is all. Suck up blows. That is what it is there for.

[mansa]

No, I don't like that so much. No skills ... just realistic counter-balancing of options is all I ask. I say no skill because there are non-combative classes that do combative things and serve in certian ways so as to need armors for certian things.

I always think that warriors should be the only people to be able to wear plate mail...  right?

Just like in World of Warcraft.  They should know how to fight with heavy armours. 

We are not WOW. I would actually probably become angry if warriors gained a skill letting them use heavy armor better, and I play warriors faithfully. Why should an assassin not be able to wear heavy armor if they want to, and gain the same benefit from it as a warrior? There is no reason at all, if that assassin feels like serving in a combative position that he needs protection in. No. I just want to see heavy armor do heavy armor work, that is all. Suck up blows. That is what it is there for.

You're shifting the idea from a guild_based game into a skill_based game.  Why can't warriors backstab or assassins quit in the wilderness?  They don't, and they probably won't in the future.

Armageddon is a game based around a guild that you pick.   Warriors are the tanks and Assassins are the Damage Dealers.

If Dungeons and Dragons can revise their core rules to treat it more like World of Warcraft, I'm sure we can also pick and choose some things from that very successful game and implement it into our game.

I'm thinking that instead of a -30% to your fighting skills when wearing PLATE_MAIL, GUILD_Warrior should be able to get a -15% to your fighting skills.   Or, at least some skill that allows you to do so, perhaps branchable in the future.  I'm not saying to remove the negatives... just make the negatives less.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Hrm.

I don't know now. S'a good point.

[IntuitiveApathy]

Warriors already have the ability to specialize in a certain weapon style, mastering the style beyond any other guild.

Why not allow them to specialize in a certain armour style/type as well?  This would of course require that armour skills be put in the game.  These skills shouldn't be restricted to warriors, just as the weapon skills are not restricted to warriors.  But again, warriors should be able to master them beyond the abilities of any other guild, being the premier combat guild.

Benefits to skill in using your armour?  Reduced encumbrance penalty, reduced chance of armour sustaining damage (the whole armour damage system would need to be fixed first) and perhaps an increased chance to absorb/deflect blows.

[Synthesis]

Honestly, did we really need another reason to prioritize strength first?

I've already ranted at length about this, so I'll just throw out some sarcasm:

Now we have a valid reason for explaining why there are no elves in 2.0:  everyone stopped playing them in 1.0.

[Lakota]

Eh, I do agree that there has been a bit more emphasis placed on strength than other stats. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't strength determine if you hit an opponent? i.e. the stronger you are, the more likely you will hit your opponent? I could very well be wrong, but in any case, placing such a heavy emphasis on strength does severely limit the capabilities of elves. One could argue that the elves could balance things out by using their speed and light enc. to combat the brute strength of a heavily armored warrior, but everyone knows that armor is much too important.

I've tried the whole "elven savage who only wears a loincloth and warpaint" before. It doesn't work.

[Synthesis]

Eh, well...back in the old days before the defense nerf, I had a d-elf warrior who ran around with nothing but a loincloth and a tattoo on every location, and he could whoop the pants off of anything, using only a single chipped, obsidian dagger in his secondary hand. 

I even got a funny account note for it:  "...has an insanely high offense...does anyone know how this happened?"

Then again, d-elves don't really play by the same rules as city elves, do they?

[Lakota]

Jesus..

[Dalmeth]

I could very well be wrong, but in any case, placing such a heavy emphasis on strength does severely limit the capabilities of elves. One could argue that the elves could balance things out by using their speed and light enc. to combat the brute strength of a heavily armored warrior, but everyone knows that armor is much too important.

I've tried the whole "elven savage who only wears a loincloth and warpaint" before. It doesn't work.

Strong beats weak in a typical fight.  That's the way real life works.  Even if the weaker has an edge in skill, all the stronger one needs to do is wear the other out.  There isn't all that much that can be done unless an opportunity presents itself.  Then there's the fact the stronger can wear heavier armor, which means less opportunities will present themselves.  Now the weaker will have to rely on hit and run tactics and superior numbers.  That takes organization, which is hard to come by.

By the way, anyone who runs around in just a loincloth should expect to be mostly useless in a straight fight.

[Bebop]

I have already noticed severe encumbrance changes in the past regarding combat before this new code, I can only imagine how much worse it will be.  Likewise will armor be made lighter or be more effective?  For those characters that would like to wear or need to wear heavy armors all I see this doing is negating the need to even wear the armor if it is just going to make you lose.

Warriors seem to constantly be taking hits, they already do not have many skills and I see code constantly adding negatives to fighting capabilities.  Kicks can be blocked now, their skills leech off their stamina, and now wearing armor will weigh them down in the only thing they're particularly good at - combat.  It seems to negate entirely the former appeal in having your warrior be more likely to focus on good armors that are typically somewhat weighty.

Not to mention I won't go into to much IC info, but what about the additional weight of projectiles?

Before where I would think a warrior or fighter capable of armoring themselves at an advantage, now I can seem the advantage totally going to the newb kid in his sandcloths.  :S

That is from the other thread as I did not see this one.

And to whoever said, well warriors easily get better at combat than other people, is wrong, wrong, wrong.  Warriors are falliable in so many ways, and I have seen a lot of other guilds get just as good as warriors.  Their ONLY capability is really in combat and now that is getting curved again.  Warriors are becoming more and more ineffective.  And elves ... ouch I don't even want to think about that.

[Desertman]

I really think armor should be more effective in blocking blows....

I can assure you, the difference between wearing armor and not wearing armor in a fight, is very very small, so much that you will hardly even notice.

[Riev]

I have this new idea. Instead of complaining about this code that Morgenes took time out of his schedule to implement for us that -probably- wasn't just a rash decision... why don't we accept that it was done, and cry "Reboot" so I can leave this cave and venture into a world devoid of lashing storms?

[Sephiroto]

In my long years of experience I've seen how armor absorbs blows.  I like the current scheme of damage absorption.  Armor does absorb some blows and lessen damage from heavy blows.  I am 100% positive about this.  Armor also helps deflect blows depending on how good you are at moving around in armor i.e., the defense skill.  Contrary to what most people claim, armor does a huge job at reducing damage and, more importantly, stun damage.

Zalanthas is a desert.  Unless you are a sorc (with some circumstances), a half-giant, or some sort of hardass martial fighter, heavy armor should not be used.  I should, perhaps, take this moment to mention a fight between Bronn the mercenary and a certain champion knight clad in heavy armor.  Although most armor in the game isn't as cumbersome as plate mail, it can be just as heavy.  Bone on Zalanthas is extra dense, obsidian is very heavy, and silt-horror is ungodly heavy.

I feel strongly that this code change adds reality to a game and will bring change to the dynamic of fighting while armored.  In reality, one either dodges/blocks/parries every blow or stands a high chance to be severely injured.

Lastly, one general note on encumberance:  Stop carrying around 3 skins of water, 10 days of food, 4 swords, 12 daggers, a shield, 1000 obsidian coins, a bow, a quiver, 20 obsidian-tipped arrows and a backpack full of crafting gear.  Unless they have the strength to support it, a fighter should be packed as lightly as possible.

[Fathi]

Note to all of you who have been going around at 'heavy, but manageable' or higher encumbrance and fighting.

I think this is the reason why these changes fail to alarm me so much.

I've played some pretty low-strength characters, but never have I had a character weak enough that armour on the necessary places and cloth/light leather everywhere else put my PC at 'heavy, but manageable' or higher.

Sure, like Seph says, I had to ditch the backpack full of crap, the 18-stone plated gurth shell sleeves, and the 12-stone boots that held three knives, but it was plenty easy to keep that character's encumbrance down and still have midweight-to-heavy armour over the vital bits.

[BlackMagic0]

I've always kept around...

Your encumbrance is no problem
or
Your encumbrance is light

I do not see having any problems with this new change for my warriors/rangers.
I've had warriors with exceptional strength, wearing some of the lighest leathers he could find. Black stuff, from salarri. Was fun.

[Armaddict]

I agree with Seph, and that's what I was getting at with my first post.

People encumber themselves way too much on purpose as is.  "No, I'm still at heavy, but manageable.  I can still move without penalty, I'm fine."  "No, I'm at very heavy, but I'm going to be riding someplace."

People will actually have to be frugal when traveling or going into combat about what they bring, now.  And hello pack animals.

[Dalmeth]

I'll admit, my primary concern with this is that it does create more realism.  What's wrong with that?  It means that sometimes, certain things can't be done.   Want your city elf to run around with the Byn?  Can't do it.  The necessary tent can't be carried by yourself, and if you ever get separated from your unit, you're screwed.  Expeditions into the wilderness will be even more limited on account that more people will be packing vital supplies on their mount.  That can constitute a harsh limit to mobility in various situations.  You'll get more situations where people have to turn around and not do something fun because of weight limits.  This includes the phenomenon of putting people to menial tasks where they won't be able to dive into into the action along with everyone else.