Social Rank of Indie Merchants

[jcljules]

Will an indie trader/crafter -always- be considered 'less' than a house agent or trader? Or is it based on wealth and power?

[Qzzrbl]

I would say almost always less either way. Because it's almost impossible for an indie merchant to become more powerful and rich than a merchant house.

[touringCompl3t3]

Yeah, this is an area where you're going to struggle, brother.  I've had problems gaining cred as an indie merchant.  Even at times when I've had more disposable income and more influence than my clanned counterparts. 

There are a number of reasons for this, some of them not entirely logical.

Ironically, even an indie warrior might get more props than you do, for the simple reason that they're a big guy with a sword. 

Let me know if you find a way past all this -- it's something that I struggled with for a while.

[jcljules]

Alright... I'll keep fighting then 

Edit: I think one way might be to start -acting- rich and powerful in the first place... parties, giving people tasks to do for sids, etc; Someone on another thread told me to be a successful indie merchant I had to be a 'quest giver.' Best advice I've gotten so far

[Archbaron]

Alright... I'll keep fighting then 

Edit: I think one way might be to start -acting- rich and powerful in the first place... parties, giving people tasks to do for sids, etc; Someone on another thread told me to be a successful indie merchant I had to be a 'quest giver.' Best advice I've gotten so far

Yes, you must act like you have money before people will treat you like you have money. My current character isn't terribly rich, but he acts completely pompous and most people respect him as a wealthy man because of it. And yes, that "quest-giver" advice is vital. As someone with money and someone who can make money easily on a whim, you should put your position of power to use and give lesser folk a chance at grandeur and adventure. Maybe you're interested in some norther fauna? Find some rangers, give them mounts and water, and send them off on an expedition. Be creative.

[Gimfalisette]

Will an indie trader/crafter -always- be considered 'less' than a house agent or trader? Or is it based on wealth and power?

Taking Tuluk as an example, because its rank table is more detailed: http://www.armageddon.org/rp/tuluk_castes.html

You will see there on the Tuluki rank table that "Independent Commoner" is lower in rank than almost everyone else. Now, there are things which can modify this status a little bit: For example, an indie commoner who is the partisan of a well-regarded noble patron will be higher in status than an indie commoner without equivalent patronage.

Another possibility to "rank up" for an indie merchant would be to become an accomplished or master artisan who is sought after for mastercrafted goods by a circle of wealthy, powerful people.

But otherwise, an indie merchant is just yet another of the common masses; assuming they have Tuluki citizenship, that makes them better than a non-citizen. But that's pretty much it.

I recommend not getting above yourself and thinking you have more power or influence than you really do; that often doesn't turn out well.

[jcljules]

Interesting what the table said about foreigners... but wouldn't a foreigner be more likely to just ignore the societal structure entirely? (within reason of course--you'd want to survive)

[Gimfalisette]

Interesting what the table said about foreigners... but wouldn't a foreigner be more likely to just ignore the societal structure entirely? (within reason of course--you'd want to survive)

I'm not really sure what you mean. Anyone -can- ignore the social structure if they want to. The problem is, that often ends up having negative consequences, from social ridicule to unofficial shunning to death. Ignoring the social structure is going to set you up for getting the exact opposite of what you seem to want, which is social recognition/power/influence.

[Gimfalisette]

Adding: I know social ranking and politics stuff can be confusing. The most important point to know is that if you are inside the social structure and playing by the rules, you will much more easily and quickly come to have influence, power, and money. If you try to break the rules or stay outside the structure, your efforts will suffer.

The "rules" I'm talking about are things like: Who to befriend, who to have in your debt, who to be indebted to, how to be truly useful and valued, bribery, doing business in general, competing against established players or organizations, finding a niche rather than competing, what you can get away with and what you can't, information gathering and management, etc etc etc.

[jcljules]

What I mean is that while a poor foreigner is probably the lowest of the low, a rich foreigner is kind of 'outside of' the entire social structure. Its the same way in the real world--there's a lot of xenophobia and racism against poorer foreigners in a lot of countries, but people are more than willing to deal with rich foreigners because it is profitable.

Who's going to turn away quite a few 'sids so they can eat for a day to do a simple mission for a foreign merchant, regardless of their 'social rank'

[Gimfalisette]

Who's going to turn away quite a few 'sids so they can eat for a day to do a simple mission for a foreign merchant, regardless of their 'social rank'

I'm not saying you can't or shouldn't go ahead and send people on questy-type things for you. You SHOULD do that, if you can. It's good for the game and fun for all.

I'm just saying it's not the same as having the kind of power and influence that someone who's an insider will have.

[jcljules]

Yeah, I understand. My character would never really have power and influence over the -city- in which he lived, but in a general sense he would be a powerful individual.

Not that he's close to either at the moment, but I'm working on it 

[Salt Merchant]

Coin is influence. If you have the coin, you can bribe templars to have your way. You can pay assassins. You can surround yourself with hirelings. And so forth.

[jcljules]

Exactly my point--if I have tons of coin, it doesn't matter where I am on the little chart thingy--except for the fact that I'm below the templarate and the nobles.

[Gimfalisette]

My character would never really have power and influence over the -city- in which he lived, but in a general sense he would be a powerful individual.

I'm not sure what definition you're using of "powerful individual." In my definition, he would not be. I'm just gonna go to the dictionary to illustrate, rather than doing it in my own words; power means, "Ability to do or act, possession of control or command over others, legal capacity or authority." Socially speaking, your character (assuming we're talking about an indie foreign merchant in either city) will not have any of those things.

Exactly my point--if I have tons of coin, it doesn't matter where I am on the little chart thingy--except for the fact that I'm below the templarate and the nobles.

Coin can be influence, yes, but it's not the only factor nor the most important. Even in ARM, money can't buy you everything. If you go by your statement above, you are likely in for some nasty surprises.

[jcljules]

Coin is influence. If you have the coin, you can bribe templars to have your way. You can pay assassins. You can surround yourself with hirelings. And so forth.

I'm going to have to agree with him

[Tisiphone]

Coin is influence. If you have the coin, you can bribe templars to have your way. You can pay assassins. You can surround yourself with hirelings. And so forth.

I'm going to have to agree with him

That's because you're too new to know better.

[Gimfalisette]

Coin is influence. If you have the coin, you can bribe templars to have your way. You can pay assassins. You can surround yourself with hirelings. And so forth.

I'm going to have to agree with him

Well then, I suggest you boldly test your proposition and find out. Maybe he's right, and maybe coin is the very most important thing of all.

[jcljules]

Haha alright I will 

The main thing I misunderstand is the fact that if my character, an indie merchant, pulls in like 4 times the sids of an entry level house merchant, and I also have more connections and customers, why is he my social better? I just find it hard to believe that my rich foreign indie merchant, who wears fine linens (not silks, mind you) and owns a great apartment, can hire assassins to deal with his competition and even has a few 'employees'...

How is that house merchant my character's social better?

And by the way, the situation I'm describing isn't exactly where my character -is- right now, but its just a goal.

[Tisiphone]

Because the House has more power than you ever will, and can be held accountable, and automatically gives him more and better social contacts than you will ever have, save by establishing another House.

[Mood]

Because the entry level house merchant has the support of a Great Merchant House behind him/her, and you have pretty much zero chance of ever being richer or more influential than an entire house.

[Gimfalisette]

The main thing I misunderstand is the fact that if my character, an indie merchant, pulls in like 4 times the sids of an entry level house merchant, and I also have more connections and customers, why is he my social better? I just find it hard to believe that my rich foreign indie merchant, who wears fine linens (not silks, mind you) and owns a great apartment, can hire assassins to deal with his competition and even has a few 'employees'...

How is that house merchant my character's social better?

Assuming we're talking about a GMH family member, it's because they're part of one of the richest families in the world, upon which a large portion of the economy rests. This analogy kind of sucks, but try it: How come Paris Hilton can get into any nightclub she wants in the world, and you can't? Even if you started your own company worth a few million dollars, why would it still be this way? First and foremost, it's because her family is stinking rich and very influential, whereas you're just some self-made Joe Schmoe.

As an indie, it's impossible for you to rival the extreme quantity of wealth and the influence the GMHs have. You're measuring yourself one-on-one against a single family member, while you should be measuring yourself against the whole of Kadius, Salarr, etc.

And yeah...what Tis and Mood said.

[Mood]

Even the Hilton family couldn't compete with the amount of influence the GMHs hold, IMO.

[Tisiphone]

Even the Hilton family couldn't compete with the amount of influence the GMHs hold, IMO.

More like why only the Winchesters get to handle the Crown Jewels.

[jcljules]

Assuming we're talking about a GMH family member...

I said a GMH entry level employee, not a family member--of course an Indie could never be better than a family member or agent.

[Malken]

Because the entry level house merchant has the support of a Great Merchant House behind him/her, and you have pretty much zero chance of ever being richer or more influential than an entire house.

Unless you're me.

I'm ritch, biatch! *honk honk*

[Tisiphone]

Assuming we're talking about a GMH family member...

I said a GMH entry level employee, not a family member--of course an Indie could never be better than a family member or agent.

That's a lot more fluid; depending, frankly, on how well-liked the employee is, yet he still has the nominal protection of the House.

How would you like it if someone kicked your dog? Even a dog you didn't like?

[Salt Merchant]

What they're saying is true as a background re: "the world".

But real influence and power is highly dependent on the character. I can easily imagine an independent merchant having far more impact and more influence in terms of actual gameplay than a Senior Agent of some GMH, especially an indolent one.

[Gimfalisette]

Because the entry level house merchant has the support of a Great Merchant House behind him/her, and you have pretty much zero chance of ever being richer or more influential than an entire house.

Unless you're me.

I'm ritch, biatch! *honk honk*

A valid test of your proposition would be to see whether you can steal the silk trade from Kadius. (And by "silk trade," I mean of course access to and control of the sources of silk harvestables, method of manufacturing silk cloth, production of silk goods, and dominance of the silk market in both major cities.) If you can steal Kadius' silk trade, then I think it's fair to say you have the possibility of becoming richer and more influential than them.

[jcljules]

Because the entry level house merchant has the support of a Great Merchant House behind him/her, and you have pretty much zero chance of ever being richer or more influential than an entire house.

Unless you're me.

I'm ritch, biatch! *honk honk*

A valid test of your proposition would be to see whether you can steal the silk trade from Kadius. (And by "silk trade," I mean of course access to and control of the sources of silk harvestables, method of manufacturing silk cloth, production of silk goods, and dominance of the silk market in both major cities.) If you can steal Kadius' silk trade, then I think it's fair to say you have the possibility of becoming richer and more influential than them.

I accept your challenge!!!

Or not, but I think you misunderstand what I mean--I realize I could never be more powerful than an entire GMH... but I think its entirely plausible for my character to be the social better of a lowly employee. For example... if I own a little stationary store with three employees, I can never compare myself to Staples--but I'm probably the social better of the 18 year old employee who works at the register.

[Mood]

Because the entry level house merchant has the support of a Great Merchant House behind him/her, and you have pretty much zero chance of ever being richer or more influential than an entire house.

Unless you're me.

I'm ritch, biatch! *honk honk*

A valid test of your proposition would be to see whether you can steal the silk trade from Kadius. (And by "silk trade," I mean of course access to and control of the sources of silk harvestables, method of manufacturing silk cloth, production of silk goods, and dominance of the silk market in both major cities.) If you can steal Kadius' silk trade, then I think it's fair to say you have the possibility of becoming richer and more influential than them.

I accept your challenge!!!

Or not, but I think you misunderstand what I mean--I realize I could never be more powerful than an entire GMH... but I think its entirely plausible for my character to be the social better of a lowly employee. For example... if I own a little stationary store with three employees, I can never compare myself to Staples--but I'm probably the social better of the 18 year old employee who works at the register.

That was directed at Malken, I believe.

[Gimfalisette]

I can easily imagine an independent merchant having far more impact and more influence in terms of actual gameplay than a Senior Agent of some GMH, especially an indolent one.

I have seen indie merchants who knew the system well, played by the rules, and didn't set off anyone's "getting above him/herself" radar who were very successful and well-regarded. I haven't seen an indie -foreigner- merchant do this (foreigner especially meaning someone from the opposite city-state). Tribals who do this are kind of a special case, because they carry the weight of their family behind them just as GMHs do; you can bet that templars/nobles will want to have decent relationships with them to keep peace with the tribe and/or use the tribe for some purpose.

The truth is that ARM is a game of organizations, not just individuals.

[Gimfalisette]

I think you misunderstand what I mean--I realize I could never be more powerful than an entire GMH... but I think its entirely plausible for my character to be the social better of a lowly employee. For example... if I own a little stationary store with three employees, I can never compare myself to Staples--but I'm probably the social better of the 18 year old employee who works at the register.

Tisiphone already said this was possible, and since I agreed with her, I didn't say anything. If you have the right competency, the right connections, etc. then as an indie commoner it is possible to be socially more influential than an entry-level, non-family GMH employee. Marko explained it a long time ago, and I'll paraphrase--to all social status/ranking/influence stuff there are gradations. Your character might have +++, while a character at the next rank up might have ---, and thus you're in reality above them. Or vice versa.

[Gimfalisette]

Adding: It's also helpful to remember that we are not talking about our modern-day capitalistic, democratic society. We're talking about a society that is very rigidly structured, extremely hierarchical, brutally authoritarian, and gleefully monopolistic.

[Rahnevyn]

Social rankings are fluid and the tables give just a general picture. They aren't set in stone. I would think that an independent merchant would have a variable status based on wealth, connections, friends, bribes, and what goods they sell. At the low end they'd be no better than an average commoner. At the high end, the merchant at the front of a wealthy and successful operation might indeed rival even individual family members of a GMH. It's hard to say things definitively when we're talking so abtract.

[Dalmeth]

connections, friends, bribes, and what goods they sell.

Note : these are the most important factors, which is why outsiders tend to fail.  They don't make friends.

[psionic fungus]

The main thing I misunderstand is the fact that if my character, an indie merchant, pulls in like 4 times the sids of an entry level house merchant, and I also have more connections and customers, why is he my social better?

In this situation we can assume that your character is an accomplished artisan, if not a master artisan, yes?

In Tuluk, being an accomplished artisan is the equivalent of being a full Merchant.  Being a Master Artisan is the equivalent of being a Senior Merchant, and this is a social position well above that of an entry level merchant house employee, which holds a position of respect just a bit higher than the average hunter...

[Nyr]

Your social rank as an independent merchant will (likely) be directly proportional to how much a threat to Merchant House income your character is.

Take that any way you want.

[Mood]

The GMHs didn't become the monolithic powerhouses they are by allowing competitors to go unchecked.

[Maybe42or54]

Gives a chance for the GMH PC to put down/recruit any major PC indie-merchant.

Sounds fantastic.

[jcljules]

I'm still waiting to be attacked by the GMHs... I think I'll start provoking them!

"My products are cheaper than Salarrs! More beautiful than Kadian Silks! More addictive than Kuraci spice! And CHEAP Too!"

[Tisiphone]

I'm still waiting to be attacked by the GMHs... I think I'll start provoking them!

"My products are cheaper than Salarrs! More beautiful than Kadian Silks! More addictive than Kuraci spice! And CHEAP Too!"

Do it, you'll be my favouritest newbie.

[jcljules]

I'm still waiting to be attacked by the GMHs... I think I'll start provoking them!

"My products are cheaper than Salarrs! More beautiful than Kadian Silks! More addictive than Kuraci spice! And CHEAP Too!"

Do it, you'll be my favouritest newbie.

*whimpers* you... you... you mean I'm not already? 

And I have actually But I wouldn't want to give anything IC away, so no more details

[Spoon]

I know you're being careful and everything Jcljules about IC info, but just to highlight what I've learnt from your recent posts and threads:

I know what guild your PC is, what you make, how you go about doing it and that you've now started provoking a Merchant House in some manner. This has made it painfully obvious who your PC is.

I don't want this to seem like I'm bashing you for anything. You're a very enthusiastic player, which is cool and great for the game. Keep asking questions and making threads if you feel the need to. Just a friendly reminder that this information has been made available to the entire player base. And I've only skimmed through the odd thread you've made.

[jcljules]

I realize I've made my guild obvious, but I don't recall making any posts about what I make... And as for provoking merchant houses, I haven't really yet, so I think you might be mistaken in thinking I'm giving away my PC.

But I do realize I have been giving away some information, which is never a good thing--and I'll be more careful in the future. I don't, however, think I've given away who my PC is.

[Boggis]

I don't, however, think I've given away who my PC is.

To be honest I'd be pretty certain I know exactly who your PC is based off this and other threads and I don't even spend much time in that location. Not knocking you but I'd agree with what Spoon said.

[Nyr]

Yes--the more details you give, the easier it is to find out who your PC is.  Please be careful about giving away IC information.

[jcljules]

I didn't realize how easy it was to reveal who my character was--I'll be more careful now.