Leader PC's and leaving Safe Areas

[Hot_Dancer]

I know I wish up fairly often when I manage to gather a group of underlings and wander out of town/camp. Been a little while since I've had that luck though.

Dealing with unanimated npc's and the like really isn't very much fun, also takes the weight off having to entertain everyone personally when the staff sees that cluster of pc's to harass and maim.

[RogueGunslinger]

Dealing with unanimated npc's and the like really isn't very much fun

[Dalmeth]

I wish someone had told me this earlier.  I never had any idea that the staff had the policy to present themselves more or less on demand, or that they had the time to react to the day-to-day events.

[Barzalene]

I don't know that they do. I think they do if they can. And if they can,but have no idea you're out there, well, they may be omnipotent but they're not omniscient.

[Hot_Dancer]

I wasn't aware of any requirements to notify staff but I also don't know the particular situation. You could've been raiding an intelligent encampment relying on winning via the limitations in mobile script for all I know. That's one instance I could see staff getting irritable over, but it's not an accusation. Ignorant, here.

I'm just making it a point that, involving the staff in your group activities makes for better group activities when you can get one.

[Elgiva]

I rarely wish up at all, unless there is a dire need. Sometime I feel stupid encouranging myself to wish up for something I just "kind of need" as well. So... I don't think leaders are -supposed- to wish up, I played a few of leader-roles and was never told to do so. But I guess it can't hurt to do so as well.

[Tarx]

I wish up every time I leave the city.  This was something I was told to do as a leader PC on the clan board.

It may not be applicable to every leader PC, just certain kinds in certain clans.

[Fathi]

This is what I bring into consideration:

1. Is it stated that I should wish up while doing X, Y, Z in my clan docs/on the board? This could be anything from driving a wagon to running a patrol, depending on the clan and depending on what your imms prefer. If nothing else, the answer is only an email away.

2. Is my character leaving their 'safe zone' something that would happen often? If not, I would wish up. If you're First Hunter for House Kadius, I think it's pretty much expected by your clan staff that you will be leaving the gates a ton. If my character is one who often leaves their 'home base' city more than once or twice an OOC day, I wouldn't wish up unless something special was happening.

3. Is my character alone? How big is the group they're with? Sometimes when I manage to gather up a bigger group than usual, I toss up a wish even if we aren't gonna be doing anything outside the norm as far as hunting/patrolling goes.

4. Are we going to be doing anything particularly unusual or risky? Are we specifically exploring a place in hopes of finding something that we think could be there? In this case, not only would I wish up in the event we had to do it spur of the moment, but I would try to schedule the trip beforehand on my clan's board so our staffers have time to prepare if anything needs preparing and to see to it that the maximum number of clannies are able to come.

[Agent_137]

I'm pretty sure wishing up to inform the immortals that you're doing something risky or going somewhere special is a bad idea because they then will make the world react realistically to you. Which usually = death.



But really, i'm glad this thread came up. It's a good suggestion I dont' think many of us leaders practice.

[manonfire]

I did something pretty risky this morning, and I think the only reason my poor little guy didn't get insta-gibbed is because wishing up never even crossed my mind, though it probably should have.

That's not to say I didn't get caught, though. 

[Shalooonsh]

I'm pretty sure wishing up to inform the immortals that you're doing something risky or going somewhere special is a bad idea because they then will make the world react realistically to you. Which usually = death.

Even though it's somewhat difficult for me, I'm going to reply to this kindly, yet bluntly.  Usually I don't mess around with the kindly part.

The players that I know that gather a group and wish up to notify are the ones that obviously care more for the game than for the characters they play, which is precisely what a prime karma player is.  Hot_Dancer and Tarx both are very diligent in this regard, and both have taken repeated trips outside of safe zones, past the unsafe zones, and into the damned impossible to survive zones.  The reason that they return, time and time again, is because they are excellent leaders.  Sometimes there's a fatality, but you know what, it's rarer than you'd think.

Then there are the players who gather a group in off hours for the specific purpose of going somewhere they know they should not.  Sometimes they get away with it.  Sometimes they accomplish whatever goal it is, and return from this place alive.

The other times, they run into me.  Most of the time when I find people like this, the characters involved never leave the place they went.

Giving us the heads up when you're going somewhere you know you shouldn't does allow us to animate npcs and bring the world to life in a realistic fashion.  That's all we do.  Despite what some players think, we don't have a quota of deaths to fill per week/month/year.  We don't get off on the sound of the death beep, and we don't have to kleenex our screens when we kill two or more PCs at the same time. 

We are here to make the world breathe.  That's it.

To be completely frank, the player who is willing to notify us of what's going on, when, and where, before hand, is about fifty percent more likely to survive as long as the think clearly, and react realistically.  Someone who tries to fly under the radar, get in, get loot, and get out before my eye falls on them has about a 10% survival rate.  It quite pisses me off when people deliberately take liberties with the game that aren't realistic.  It breaks the game for others, and it sets a -seriously- bad example for anyone who might be following that player's leader PC.

I don't call this PC murder.  I call it retirement.

Please, if you know what you're doing, and you know it's risky, tell us.  Let us know beforehand.  Let us figure out a plan.  Let us figure out a way to make the game come alive for you, without being surprised, and having to resort to knee-jerk reactions. 

A startled staffer is a deadly staffer.  And you can quote that shit all the way to the mantishead.

[Mood]

I'm pretty sure Agent wasn't being serious, Looonsh.

[Riev]

A startled staffer is a deadly staffer.  And you can quote that shit all the way to the mantishead.

Reasons like this are why I love our storytellers. Sometimes things have happened when I'm around, sometimes they havn't. I'm not around leader PCs too much. Maybe once I understand the game a bit more, I'LL be one, and Shal can kill ME too!

[Shoka Windrunner]

I wished up just recently, because I thought I should cause I was going somewhere that had a good chance to be a deadly place.  I'd been there once because I got lost and got away as soon as I could, but I wanted to go back.  So I wished up, and as Shalooonsh stated, suddenly the world was much more alive, and it was pretty awesome.

Also I couldn't find the place at all.  But instead something crazy happened to my character that was (as far as I know) unrelated to that location.  So wish up.  I have found in the past that most Imm's won't make it completely impossible for your character.  And if it is impossible for you, it should be quickly obvious that you should get the Krath out of there.  If you don't well you were warned by a room echo of a billion gith with steel plate armor coming your way.  If you think the world would react more than just codedly when you go somewhere, send a wish.  You never know what will happen.  You might just get the chance to see something super cool that isn't related to where your going at all.

[X-D]

That is something I would like to comment on.

It has been my experiance that staff almost always leaves a way out...either by using your head or simply going EEK! FLEEEEEEEEEE.

[jhunter]

I've never made a habit of doing it simply because I was afraid of pissing the staff off being a pest. I don't think the blanket statement that the ones who do this consistently are the ones who care more about the game and the others -don't-.
I think Shaloonsh having the assumption that people are not wishing up to have the world brought to life are doing it for some sort of underhanded reason is flat out insulting, the fact that Shaloonsh says that he/she goes by this assumption and -punishes- the -percieved- offender is just plain wrong and not something I personally would want out of staff. Making the world come to life is one thing, punishing the player because of some -perceived- offense or trickery is just plain bullshit.
As I said, I never did it very often, -not- because I wouldn't rather have the world be more alive (which is a hell of a lot more fun) but because I was afraid I would've been selfish and a pest to the staff who do so very much for us already.

[musashi]

I've never made a habit of doing it simply because I was afraid of pissing the staff off being a pest. I don't think the blanket statement that the ones who do this consistently are the ones who care more about the game and the others -don't-.
I think Shaloonsh having the assumption that people are not wishing up to have the world brought to life are doing it for some sort of underhanded reason is flat out insulting, the fact that Shaloonsh says that he/she goes by this assumption and -punishes- the -percieved- offender is just plain wrong and not something I personally would want out of staff. Making the world come to life is one thing, punishing the player because of some -perceived- offense or trickery is just plain bullshit.
As I said, I never did it very often, -not- because I wouldn't rather have the world be more alive (which is a hell of a lot more fun) but because I was afraid I would've been selfish and a pest to the staff who do so very much for us already.

I think from staff's vantage high up in the sky, a little bit of watching the player would allow them to make a much better judgement call about the player's actions being underhanded or not than another player could though ...

[X-D]

Just imagine jhunters post here and a QFT.

And to add, when I've been doing something and staff assumed it was underhanded or sneaky trying to get across in an unrealistic manner, they have been wrong 100% of the time.

Loonsh should have said "A startled Staffer is a WRONG staffer."

When a staffer jumps in to punish or what have you without checking the proper backround, they run the risk of being drasticly wrong in the assumption that the player is up to no good...and more times then not in my experiance they are indeed wrong.

If I enter an area with my PC without any problems, but with staff interaction and everything goes smooth, I should not have to wish up spelling it out every single time my PC enters the area. It is staff's job to stop and do the research or even stop and watch a bit to make sure what they assume is happening really is.
Maybe try and remember that the Bio is there for that reason as well...hhhmm? maybe?

Alright, I'm ranting, I'll stop.

[Lizzie]

Shalooonsh's post does seem a bit extreme, even given the intent (which is to educate and guide, rather than to scold, as I interpret it).

Having a tregil take a shit on your boots is a lot more fun when you're NOT asking for a staffer to make the world come alive for you. So kudos to whoever does these things without waiting or expecting to be asked. Having an actual need for an animated NPC (such as a clan senior, or templar, soldier, mantis-clutch leader, etc. etc.) aside, I generally won't wish up to have the game world any more "alive" than it already is. If a staffer wants to do it anyway, great! But I feel it is unfair to imply (since it's only an implication, Shal didn't actually state this) that players who don't do it, are somehow attempting to cheat.

[Tisiphone]

I got the idea that Looonsh was specifically referencing people going into areas of the game that SHOULD be animated when they arrive, regardless of whether or not they're someone important.

Examples might include raiding a tribal camp, delving into a mantis clutch, attacking the halfling village, and so on.

[Medena]

I got the idea that Looonsh was specifically referencing people going into areas of the game that SHOULD be animated when they arrive, regardless of whether or not they're someone important.

Not only that but people seem to have forgotten about the intent of this thread which was about leader PC's leading a group outside the gates/settlement/etc.  It wasn't about you and your buddy going someplace. 

[White Moon]

I was the OP who asked the question originally in 'Ask the Staff.'  The idea, mentioned by another player, seemed novel and I wanted to know if it was encouraged by all clan staff.

Then I tried it, and saw it that it was good.

The staff animated the world around my little group in a manner that was predictably not all perfume and roses.  It completely ruled.

[brytta.leofa]

And to add, when I've been doing something and staff assumed it was underhanded or sneaky trying to get across in an unrealistic manner, they have been wrong 100% of the time.

In my opinion, it's almost always worth waiting for more information.  Unknown unknowns and all that.

When I was 16 or so, I was a "channel op" on a fairly well-established IRC channel. (Channel operators have the ability to kick and ban people from a channel--that's a "chat room" for you AOYahooSpace-usin' younglings.)  For various reasons, that channel was a frequent target of trolls/bullies/griefers who thought it was hilarious to see how offensive they could manage to be before getting banned.  Though we would generally wait for real misbehavior before sanctioning somebody, I developed an uncanny sense for who was going to be a problem--I was convinced that I could tell within the first sentence or two where someone was headed.

Nowadays, I wonder what my accuracy rate really was.  1/2? 1/3? 1/5?  Our brains tend to be far better at reinforcing those pattern-matchin' models than they are about correcting them.

There's an impetuously-worded note on my account that, IMO, reflects a staff member sorting me into a predefined category: oh, this is one of those people who like to do that.  That staffer didn't by any means come to an unreasonable conclusion; just an incorrect one.  A little communication would have made me aware of the problem (which I would have gladly corrected myself) and probably changed the staffer's understanding of the situation.

More information is always good, even when uncertain.  More communication is always good, when it contains information.

[Nyr]

It's not necessarily a guideline asking you as a leader PC to wish up for interaction as you leave--it's wishing up for notification. 

Generally, if you are leaving a safe area and you are a leader PC, it is very wise to wish up and state what you are doing, where you're doing it, and why (if it's something you normally are NOT doing).

Yes, Looonsh was specifically referencing leader PCs.
If you aren't playing a leader PC, it doesn't really apply to you.

I'd like to quell another assumption, though:
Wishing up does not guarantee your survival any more than it guarantees your death.  What it does do is assist in making the world react in a more realistic manner.
If that manner results in you surviving where you wouldn't have, given strict code guidelines, this is not necessarily because the staff has a sweet tooth for you.
In this case, your survival was not a reward for wishing up; it was a more realistic reaction from the perception of the staffer that animated in that particular case.
If that manner results in you dying where you wouldn't have, given strict code guidelines, this is not necessarily because the staff has a vendetta against you.
In this case, your death was not a punishment for wishing up; it was a more realistic reaction from the perception of the staffer that animated in that particular case.

As with any cases of interaction with staff members, you may always issue a staff complaint through the request tool if you feel that such a situation was handled in an unrealistic manner.

[Shoka Windrunner]

Yeah I wasn't trying to state that if you wish you will necessarily survive:

What I meant is that in my experience, when in a dangerous place, when I wish that I'm going there, if I'm smart, I can 'usually' escape if I need to.

[staggerlee]

I can only imagine that clan staff would rather watch their entire clan fall off the shield wall and die then find out after the fact and have to go scrambling through logs to find out why they're all suddenly dead.

[Elgiva]

I can only imagine that clan staff would rather watch their entire clan fall off the shield wall and die then find out after the fact and have to go scrambling through logs to find out why they're all suddenly dead.

Riiiight.

Not to mention that being kicked off the sheild wall by animated beast is much more fun than being kicked down by beast who isn't animated... even if the result is the same, heh.

[NoteworthyFellow]

My way of seeing it is this: if you're a leader PC and you wish up as you and a group of your employees/followers/etc. leave a safe area, things are bound to be more interesting.  You may die, you may live, but whatever the case, I think I can guarantee it'll be more fun.  I've never played a leader PC, but you can bet that if I did, I'd do everything I could to get as much staff animation of the environment as humanly possible, because running around bashing NPCs is never as fun as having to react to a much more dynamic situation.  If I wanted to interact with just NPCs all day, I'd go play a low-population hack-and-slash MUD and have myself a fantastic time.  Sure, I might have a higher chance of dying--or a higher chance of living (which, when put together with that higher chance of dying, sort of cancels the whole thing out)--but it would be so worth it.  And we all play Armageddon knowing full well that every time we log onto our character, it could be the last time, don't we?  Might as well up the ante while we're at it.  Play for keeps, y'know?

I don't think it matters at all whether the staff are "out to get us" or "out to preserve us," because whichever they do--or neither--it's all to make the game more fun.  I like fun.