Thread Derail: When is Silk Okay?!

[Tuannon]

If the cost of clothing was rather less, I suppose degradation would be a good thing to have.

Perhaps something to consider for Arm 2?

Or maybe rather than use a timer use a chance event similar to armour and shield breakage. If you stand outside in a sand storm without adequate protection you have an x percent chance of damaging your clothes. And so on...

[some guy]

If you worked at McDonalds, would you wear a suit to flip burgers (if there was no dress code)?  Probably not.  Even if you could afford it, you wouldn't do it.  Cleaning and cost aside, you wouldn't do it because you would feel very much 'out of your station'.  OK, now take a step away from our happy liberal democracies and try and imagine a world with brutally stark class division.  Would your commoner feel out of place wandering around in nice silk things?  Hell yes.  Cost aside, you should just feel wrong for stepping out of your station.

Much agreement. One of the things that many players seem to have trouble with is seeing the world from their character's perspective rather than from above, and the result is that such things as fashion and society-related customs are often lacking. Very rarely do I see anyone going "why is he wearing that? He doesn't fit in!" or anything of the sort, and many of the things that people in real life would think you strange for go completely unnoticed in the game.

While it's a difficult comparison to make, think about how you react to people, and especially strangers, in the real world. All that it takes for most people to form a first impression of someone, negative or not, is if they wear something a little odd. A guy walks into a diner wearing dirty slacks and a very worn hoodie with a plastic bag full of things? Most people would take him for a druggie or at least a poor and maybe homeless person. Is someone sitting in McDonalds eating a cheeseburger while wearing an opera coat? What the hell, right? If someone's wearing a burka or a turban then they're probably from the Middle-East, and if they're wearing lederhosen they're probably German or Swiss*.Just walk down the street wearing something very unusual and people will snigger and give you odd looks.

Things are of course somewhat different in Zalanthas concerning what people will and will not wear, but reactions to actions and appearances out of the norm are acknowledged much less than I believe and prefer that they would be. Some of this stems from the fact that it's a game, we aren't our PCs and they'll never be as deep and fleshed-out as an actual person, but a lot of the time I believe people simply just forget or neglect to react or comment when they see something unusual. And when people do, the targets of that discrimination rarely react to it as a real person probably would. If someone ridicules you, even a stranger, you it should make you feel awkward unless your character is specifically the kind of person who doesn't give a shit what anyone else thinks, and that should not be the norm. Zalanthan fashion and dress custom is a big deal, in the city-states especially, and I think that if the players start to really look at other characters and put some serious thought into how they would react to their appearance and behaviour, a more in-depth social atmosphere could evolve. Because as it is now, I think the social aspect of this game is incredibly shallow for an RPIMUD.

Would you sit and chat at the bar with someone who is covered in blood?

Would you think nothing strange of a gemmer wearing clothes and jewelry that dwarf the outfits of junior nobles?

Would you utterly ignore the fact that a rinther wearing filthy, stinking rags just sat down right next to you?

Would you care that an Allanaki commoner is wearing clothes obviously recognized as Tuluki fashion, and vice versa?

Some players react adequately to these things, but a lot of players don't acknowledge it at all, and this is why doing such things has become almost perfectly acceptable. It takes an effort from both sides, one party to react properly to such anomalities, and the other party to stop being the exceptions just for the sake of having the best, with no regard to the documentation and the game world. Some characters will have a suitable reason for wearing or appearing as what isn't socially expected and acceptable, but they shouldn't be exempt from the reactions that this would bring, either.

So the next time you play an independent tailor, don't wear a full suit of silk just because you haven't been able to sell it off. If you're a rinther, don't feel obligated to fill every equipment slot with something that is just a few points below the coded threshold for what will trigger the mugger scripts. If you're a hunter, are you really perfectly happy spending most of your life covered on blood and guts? If you spend half of your days in a temple playing with fire and smoke, is wearing a fine silk robe such a good idea?

Immersion.


*I know they don't actually wear that, but it's a convenient generalization.

[Lizzie]

Sometimes if you -do- RP the character who notices the odd and inappropriate outfit of the guy next to them, you end up being the one ridiculed. Take the gloved cestuses for example: their description clearly states they are a weapon. A google search clearly states they are a weapon. They're not gloves. A "gloved" cestus means only that the weapon has a cloth backing that makes it fit better over the back of the hand. Cestus = brass knuckles. Or in Zalanthas, bone knuckles. The only function it has is to be used as a weapon. "Covering the hands" or "protecting the hands" is not why people wear them. They wear them because they want to cause serious deadly harm to their target.

This is in line with the whole silk-wearing subject, because it has to do with a mismatch, a misunderstanding, or possibly an ignorance of either the game world or your character's place in it or the "things" your character owns. Basically, if you wear a cestus into a bar that is known (at least in part) for its rowdiness, or has been known to get rowdy (e.g. has the brawl code), then you should expect people to assume that your character is there specifically to cause some serious damage to someone in a fight. It is a calling card; an invitation to beat the shit out of someone.

But if no one ever reacts to those things as the things that they are, then how can one person react appropriately, and not be criticized? How can the low-ranking Militia soldier react appropriately, when the noble walking in, the two aides, the rinthi, and the templar all see this thing and not even react enough to show disinterest in it? The guy is standing there waiting to beat the shit out of someone. With a deadly weapon that can place someone's nose at the back of their spine if they hit it hard enough. And only one person - a low-ranking nobody - even thinks to do something about it. So they can't do something about it, because they'd be ridiculed by everyone else who thinks this item is just there for decoration, or is something other than what it is.

The same goes for wearing a silk skirt to mine obsidian in a sandstorm. It makes no sense, it doesn't prove that your character is SO bad-ass he doesn't need armor. All it proves is that the player doesn't take the game world, the atmosphere, the UNcoded potential consequences of his choices, into consideration.

[DANCE COMMANDER]

I can't tell you how happy it makes me to see someone telling me how to play.

[Mood]

I find Lizzie's example to be hilarious.

[some guy]

I can't tell you how happy it makes me to see someone telling me how to play.

If you're one of the players contributing to the problem without a suitable reason, you may have to accept that other players comment when it starts to have a negative impact on the game. If you're not, noone is telling you how to play. We're talking about an area of roleplay which is severely lacking, so I don't see what's wrong with addressing that.

[Conspiracy Theory]

(Derailing the derailment to center on cestii here. Beware!)

While I agree with the sentiments of your post, I'm not sure the cestus example is quite as good as the mining-with-silk-skirt-in-sandstorm one. On Zalanthas a good portion of citizens in both of the city-states and a vast, overwhelming majority of everyone outside them regularly carry weapons - multiple weapons, mind you - on their person.

http://artfiles.art.com/images/-/A-Forbes/Detailed-Views-of-a-Roman-Cestus-a-Leather-Glove-Used-in-Ancient-Boxing-Giclee-Print-C12364282.jpeg

A functional glove with some studs on the back of it really doesn't seem that threatening to me when the majority of the tavern (undoubtedly so in the dominant taverns of Allanak and Luir's) has a blade tucked at their side. People wander around with clawed gloves, spiked boots, and bladed bracers everywhere without getting funny looks, and this is, in my opinion, the way it should be. It's a violent world. Not everybody wants to strip down and dress up for a "classy" evening at the Gaj.

Silks in the Gaj or while mining? No.
Cestii in the Gaj? Sure. Who cares? Hell, who'd even notice? That guy over there's got a friggin greatsword hanging from his back.

Sorry for the derail, but it doesn't seem to me that Zalanthans are really gonna be that sensitive to a funky glove in places where three out of four of them probably have at least a knife on their person at any given time.

[Mood]

You misunderstood, Conspiracy Theory - Lizzie used that example to take a shot at a specific PC.

[DANCE COMMANDER]

I can't tell you how happy it makes me to see someone telling me how to play.

If you're one of the players contributing to the problem without a suitable reason, you may have to accept that other players comment when it starts to have a negative impact on the game. If you're not, noone is telling you how to play. We're talking about an area of roleplay which is severely lacking, so I don't see what's wrong with addressing that.

There's a million different scenarios where a player might deviate from the docu..

Wow. Look at me caring. Ick.

[Lizzie]

How interesting Mood that you know about some ulterior motive I didn't even realize I had. I've seen several people walk around wearing these things, and I have wondered why no one stopped them. It isn't the same as having a blade tucked in your belt. And it isn't a studded glove like the one of Conspiracy Theory's link.  The description of the item, in game, defines it -very- specifically as a weapon. Assess -v shows that it's a weapon, and using "view" in a shop shows it as a weapon. It is -not- armor, clawed or otherwise. It has no coded OR described protective value that I'm aware of; it doesn't cover the hand, it can't keep sand out from between your fingers. It is a weapon, and it is nothing other than a weapon. It's the Zalanthan version of brass knuckles, and I can't imagine why anyone would wear them outside of a combat situation, and I used the example because it fits the concern.

The concern being, that even if you DO want to react appropriately to seeing inappropriate things, you are often prevented from doing so because the IC characters who have the "authority" and/or major influence are often played by players who don't realize that what they're looking at is inappropriate...and if a Senior Noble has no problem with Rinthi-Joe wearing silk pants, then it makes it EXTREMELY difficult for Mundane John's player to RP the appropriate response, without Senior Noble coming down on his ass for having the nerve to criticize, snub, insult, ignore, or otherwise react to a rinthi's silk pants.

The same goes for cestuses, the same goes for treatment of half-elves, the same goes for treatment of magickers. It is extremely difficult to RP your character's appropriate reaction to ICly inappropriate behaviors, if the influential PCs aren't RPing that any of it bothers them. When I was new, I observed these things first-hand, and assumed that the staff just didn't really expect anyone to adhere to the documentation.

Then I came here and started reading the GDB and realized that what I was observing was -supposed- to be the exception to the rule. But I can only imagine the confusion of other new players who read one thing, and observe something completely different. I read that a cestus is a WEAPON - not armor. I see it in someone's hand. I think - well sheesh, shouldn't someone tell this person to put his weapon away, unless he's fixing to bang heads? And no one does a thing. No one says a thing. A Legionairre comes by and smiles at cestus-wearer, with no concern at all that the guy is flexing his bare fingers around a set of brass knuckles. A Kadian flashes a beaming smile at his Tuluki aide, who is wearing a full set of Kurac scrub gear. A Salarri gives his favorite hunter a hug, around the hunter's home-made armor, without a stitch of Salarr gear on him. A noble buys her bard another garnet ring, bringing the bard's current count to 40 times the value in silks and jewelry that the noble owns, let alone wears in public.

You see all this stuff, as a new player, and you wonder - if these are ALL such common exceptions to the rule, then maybe they should change the rule. Because ICly, someone should be making a fuss, but no one is.

[jstorrie]

A Legionairre comes by and smiles at cestus-wearer, with no concern at all that the guy is flexing his bare fingers around a set of brass knuckles.

My Legionnaire will 'notice' it when he has a reason to shake the guy down for a bribe. Or there are no superiors around and he just doesn't feel like working right now.

A Kadian flashes a beaming smile at his Tuluki aide, who is wearing a full set of Kurac scrub gear.

My Kadian is soft-balling his newb aide because I'm about to set him up to take the fall for me over a botched spice deal down in 'Nak.

A Salarri gives his favorite hunter a hug, around the hunter's home-made armor, without a stitch of Salarr gear on him.

Yeah, but that hunter is the one who gathers me all of my poisons. I'm not going to risk my hookup just to make another few bucks.

A noble buys her bard another garnet ring, bringing the bard's current count to 40 times the value in silks and jewelry that the noble owns, let alone wears in public.

I secretly hate my aide and am trying to get her mugged. Also, I'm having kind of an aide-off with Lord Fancypants over there, and I'm sure as hell not letting him show me up.

It's a good reminder that cestuses can be obvious weapons, and I bet some people haven't noticed. But beyond that, just assume good faith; people probably have reasons for doing or not doing what they're doing or not doing. In the case of weaponlike equipment in public areas, maybe those PCs are happily treading as far over the line as they can get away with as a way of displaying their social influence, or just sheer ballsiness?

[aruna]

It isn't the same as having a blade tucked in your belt. And it isn't a studded glove like the one of Conspiracy Theory's link.  The description of the item, in game, defines it -very- specifically as a weapon.

Are we talking about something more like this? http://www.play.net/images/weapons/troll_claw.jpg

If yeah, I'd say the problem lies in the object's sdesc, not wholly on the players. Having never actually read that item's mdesc, I imagined it being much like CT's link.

I'm not negating the possibility of inappropriate play happening out there, I'm just saying, sometimes you have time to read through every PC's equipment and sometimes you don't. This is where effective and accurate sdescs help.

[Only He Stands There]

Gloved cestii can be worn on the hands, and (possibly) have armor value when done so.

They're gloves, too. Not just weapons. Gloves.

[Lizzie]

I have no idea what the image of this item is supposed to look like. I only know what the description of it states that it IS. And it IS a weapon. It is NOT armor. It is not a "cestused glove." It is not a "pair of gloves with bone-plated knuckles attached." It is a weapon - that instead of sheathing, is kept around your fingers. Just like brass knuckles, with a drape over the back of the hand. Fingerless, palmless, wrist-less. Just "brass knuckles" made out of bone, with a draped back. It isn't useful as gloves to protect from sand, because it is fingerless and wristless. It isn't useful as armor, because it lacks the padding necessary to be used for combat protection. Its function is that of a weapon. It can be worn, yes. But it is not armor, it isn't clothing. It's a weapon. Much like a crossbow is a weapon. A crossbow isn't armor, it isn't clothing, and it is worn on the arm. It has no other function at all - it is a weapon. A crossbow though wouldn't look or be very threatening to anyone, without a bolt in it. A cestus is a weapon all by itself, without any ammunition necessary.

Oh and Jstorrie, your post obviously emphasized the exceptions to the rule. My point, which I thought was pretty clear, is that I have observed that these "exceptions" seem to be way too common to BE exceptions. When something is common, it ceases to be an exception. That was the point I was making with those examples.

[Tarx]

I guess I don't see the cestus thing as a problem.  Maybe people don't care about cestii because they don't seem as threatening when worn thusly.  Maybe they are viewed the same as some other armor items...bracers with spikes on them are "weapons," too.  So are gloves or gauntlets with spikes on them.  These are things that are made that are intended to cause bodily harm and also be worn.  *shrug*

But this thread is about silly people wearing too much silk and looking too rich, so I'll get back to that topic.
I look pretty closely at the class of citizen (or non-citizen) by their dress.  If their dress does not match their occupation, station, or place in the world, then I may take issue with it and deal with it in-character through any number of methods.

[jstorrie]

My point, which I thought was pretty clear, is that I have observed that these "exceptions" seem to be way too common to BE exceptions.

Well, my current PC spends a lot of time in the major human settlements, and I see only one PC who often rocks cestii. So I don't really get why you've got your hackles up about it.

[Lizzie]

My point, which I thought was pretty clear, is that I have observed that these "exceptions" seem to be way too common to BE exceptions.

Well, my current PC spends a lot of time in the major human settlements, and I see only one PC who often rocks cestii. So I don't really get why you've got your hackles up about it.

Probably because a few people decided to pick on the example, rather than addressing the point on the actual topic that I was trying to make, using the cestus as the example. If I had only seen one person using it regularly, if it was -also- described as useable for armor, I wouldn't have mentioned it. I can think of plenty of other examples. Some of which I have posted. But for some reason, everyone wants to focus on my mention of the cestus, and nitpick it until it no longer has anything to do with the topic. Which is - the use of silk by people who probably shouldn't be using silk - and by extension, the lack of "taking your atmosphere, your character's status, the status of others around your characters, and the actual items involved, into consideration when you roleplay a scene."

[Conspiracy Theory]

Sorry for the derail I caused. This'll be my last post. And I did mean to say that your point is well-made aside from that one tiny exception.

I just don't feel like cestii from what I know about them are a big deal when people waltz around with spikes and blades on their gloves and bracers and boots and everywhere else they can fit them, along with hauling a gigantic skull-crushing hammer across their backs and within reach.

Besides that, just because something's tagged as wieldable shouldn't suddenly, magically, change what it actually can still function as. If I walk around "wielding" a walking stick, for example, should I be assailed by every soldier within earshot for brandishing a weapon?

But that's just my opinion. I've only had one character ever use cestii, and he made it to about 8 hours. Haha.

[Qzzrbl]

Sorry for the derail I caused. This'll be my last post. And I did mean to say that your point is well-made aside from that one tiny exception.

I just don't feel like cestii from what I know about them are a big deal when people waltz around with spikes and blades on their gloves and bracers and boots and everywhere else they can fit them, along with hauling a gigantic skull-crushing hammer across their backs and within reach.

Besides that, just because something's tagged as wieldable shouldn't suddenly, magically, change what it actually can still function as. If I walk around "wielding" a walking stick, for example, should I be assailed by every soldier within earshot for brandishing a weapon?

But that's just my opinion. I've only had one character ever use cestii, and he made it to about 8 hours. Haha.

IT annoys me too, that just about every character and his/her mother walks around and about decked out in full suits of chitin and armed to the teeth. And everyone jumps your ass when you ask, "Why the fuck do you look like you're about to fend off a clutch of mantis? There aren't any mantis in this bar...".

And a walking stick isn't a weapon. It's a walking stick. I think Lizzie was applying all of this to things that are -obviously- weapons.

[X-D]

Because the bar can be more a danger then a clutch of mantis.


No joke, Any of my PCs would sooner walk into a mantis clutch naked then most the bars.

Me, I'd like to cover the blood part. Now, not so much on hunters. But warriors, some at least might consider this as a sort of advertisement. And one that makes sense. There are two ways to get blood on your gear. either splatter from totally fucking something up or from wounds. Either way the PC has survived and there is a good chance they might have a clue which end of the sword is the killin end.

Next you have to consider climate. at 140+ temp and 0% humidity you can bet that blood is going to dry in pretty much a matter of moments, specialy adding in the gale force winds that there is normaly. dried blood gets nice and dark, mix in a bit of dust and sand and it might as well be black.

So its not like these people are walking about dripping gore like Carrie. but instead more like thin blackened scabs, might be a bit crusty, but meh.

Besides, anybody who has had a long lived warrior can tell you that keeping your gear clean can rapidly turn into a full time job when a simple ride  to anywhere ends in the dreaded blood splatter, which in one fell swoop covers EVERYTHING in the room.

Heh.

[Only He Stands There]

  This is a weapon meant to be wielded in either hand, but it is also
a piece of armor.  The weapon is made of heavy leather worn on the hands
to protect them, and reinforced with chitin plates.  Spikes are mounted
on the back to help block sword blows, and another large spike sprouts
from the forearm for purposes of bludgeoning the enemy.

Emphasis mine. Thanks.

[Manhattan]

http://www.strangehorizons.com/2001/20011022/medieval_clothing.shtml

Check it out! Might provide some insight.

[AmandaGreathouse]

From http://www.armageddon.org/general/clothing.html , the relevant documentation:

Cotton, with its shine and ability to take dye, has become the dominant material in commoners� clothing, while the secondary choice is linen, although those who can afford it will opt for silk. Clothes are decorated with bright floral or fauna patterns. Solid colors may be accented with elaborate stitchings. Both upper and lower classes appreciate lace of varying quality.

Silk and linen are both cheap in Tuluk. Silk is EXPENSIVE in Allanak, while linen and other materials are still cheap. Thus, in Allanak, wearing silk should be a status symbol, whereas in Tuluk it's much more about the craftsmanship of the item itself. Anyone can wear silk in Tuluk and it really shouldn't raise concerns as to them being "above" themselves, like it would in Allanak.

A couple of items of silk for daily wearing, or all silk for special occasions, is OK for the upper tiers of commoners in Allanak.

I know I couldn't agree with this more. Especially if the character is part of a merchant house or has the merchant class in general. Becauuse I also believe it siad in some of the documentation somewhere that merchants tend to have a fairly good income. I would like to see more people in Tuluk wwearing silk myself, because it -is- so common there. And it says in the documentation that those who can afford it, do opt for silk. But I also think that the choices should be wider on the silks in Tuluk, since they are so abundant.

[Ourla]

But I also think that the choices should be wider on the silks in Tuluk, since they are so abundant.

The silk selection in Tuluk is pretty comprehensive.  I can also vouch for the fact that the things in the Kadian shops get rotated by the imms on a regular basis (I love this... please, please do it for Salarr, too). 

The fact that silk clothing plays such a large role in Zalanthas is a beautiful thing.  I've seen some great RP come from its scarcity in Allanak and its abundance in Tuluk.  I know it's not everyone's cup of tea to have to change their character's clothing, but I do love to see PCs who wear linen or cotton while they're in the city, instead of sporting a full load of armor everywhere they go.

[Nyr]

But I also think that the choices should be wider on the silks in Tuluk, since they are so abundant.

The silk selection in Tuluk is pretty comprehensive.  I can also vouch for the fact that the things in the Kadian shops get rotated by the imms on a regular basis (I love this... please, please do it for Salarr, too). 

Interesting that you bring this up.  I was working on that.  You should see some more variation in Salarr shops within the next week.