Thread Derail: When is Silk Okay?!

[Fathi]

I think he's asking if they're still running around in silks, pretending to be nobles.

This brings up a more general question. Are silks for nobles only (and for aides when the nobles decide to dress them up)?

Who else can wear them without being seen as a social pretender?

Templars, merchants, important slaves, anybody else a noble or templar decides to dress up, and f-mes.

I didn't want to derail the magicker thread with my reply to this and I think it's a topic that generally creates enough discussion to warrant its own posts.

Southie's pretty much got it, and when playing a commoner that does frequent business with the nobility of their city-state, I tend to follow some pretty simple rules of thumb, provided it's IC for my character to care at all how they're seen in such a situation:

• If you're going to do business with a noble on his or her property, dress up a little. Cloth instead of armour if your PC usually wears it, clean your armour if you're there for business that would require armour in some way. Showing that you respect someone enough to dress up when visiting them is a good thing!
• If you are a member of a mercantile organisation and you go to do business with a noble in a public place such as the Trader's or Sanctuary, dress up a little more--perhaps a silk cloak, some nicer jewelry, there are plenty of ways to show that your House has status without trying to outdress your clientele.
• If you've done business with this noble in the past, keep an eye on their tastes. It's easy to polish yourself up enough to show respect without outdressing somebody if you know what they wear.
• Templars generally care a LOT less than nobles about what your PC is wearing.
• If you're going to an RPT thrown by a noble, it doesn't hurt to ask one of their aides/partisans about the dress code!
• I'd think that generally, most commoners who don't have connections or guards would actually NOT like the idea of wandering around in public in silk all the time--it's a big bad world and the nicer your stuff is, the more appealing a target you are.

I think the deterring factor that keeps most commoners from wearing silk is cost. However, that doesn't apply quite so much to the PC world, but just because your character can afford a dress that costs 2600 'sid in a Kadian shop doesn't mean it's smart to wear it. In the end, I think the decision is up to your PC--if they want to wear silk, what's their justification? Would they wear their fancy stuff in public or private? And if they do so in public, are they ready to handle any potential consequences such as social persecution by their betters or being mugged for it?

[Morrolan]

I would like to see sumptuary laws.  Those are the laws that say "only someone of this rank can wear purple" and such things.

Like, "Only professional military wear abas in Bartertown.  Only town militia wear grey.  Only the town leaders wear silk.  It's not a cost issue, it's a caste issue.  No commoner will be found wearing a red cloak."

They don't even have to make any more sense than most laws.  But these laws were common all through history.  Putting a commoner is silks doesn't make him a noble.  But it does get him a night in the stocks, for example.  Or a fine.

Morrolan

[staggerlee]

Stuff about silk.

Very excellent post.

I'd just add in that as well as social persecution from your betters, you're likely to get it from your peers.  Hanging out in a slummy bar like the Gaj in silks is a good way to alienate yourself from everyone around you.  Sure your salt grebber has the money to wear a pretty silk skirt, but your coworkers might think you're trying to imply that you're better than them... and that drunk bynner over there in the corner might say the same with his fists.

Basically, Fathi hit the nail on the head. If you don't have the prestige and protection behind you to back up what your clothes say, wearing silks is  just going to make you a target for abuse from all corners of society.

[Barzalene]

This isn't definitive, just an opinion. I think that nobles should be the one in the really expensive stuff, and expensive stuff from head to toe. I think that silk and more expensive accents are more appropriate for commoners. Especially if those employees are house employees. I'd think Lady Borsail should be ashamed if her aide is better dressed than she.

[Marauder Moe]

On the other hand... nobles know that the common people look up to them and, when possible/legal naturally desire to emulate them.

However, it is very true that displaying wealth without an obvious source is definitely a good way to attract bad attention.

[manonfire]

I dunno what to think. There's a certain shop in a certain quarter of a certain city that caters to certain people, and the shopkeeper sells a silk cloak.

So.. what's the implication there?

[Fathi]

This isn't definitive, just an opinion. I think that nobles should be the one in the really expensive stuff, and expensive stuff from head to toe. I think that silk and more expensive accents are more appropriate for commoners. Especially if those employees are house employees. I'd think Lady Borsail should be ashamed if her aide is better dressed than she.

Definitely. I don't like the mindset that if you're wearing a silk skirt/cloak, you can't just wear linen or sandcloth or leather everywhere else!

Also, if you're a commoner worried about potentially outdressing your boss, keep in mind that there are dozens if not hundreds of items in the Kadius database that are silk-lined, silk-trimmed, embroidered, etc. that are quite tasteful and classy but don't pack the same social punch, and also conveniently cost less!

[jstorrie]

It's not unreasonable for a commoner to have a small silk accessory, like a scarf or a favourite hat.

One of the big problems with tying silk to caste is that in the part of the world where caste divisions are most socially important–Tuluk–silk is a major export and common product. You can pick up a silk greatcloak in Tuluk for about the same price as a good desert duster. In Allanak the caste divisions are much more simple, tending to fall down to just templar–noble–commoner. You also have to keep in mind that Kadius would probably throw a fit if some Allanaki senator tried to pass laws restricting silk to noble use only.

From personal experience, I think silk should be more likely to sweat-stain than other fabric types, which could be a mitigating factor keeping it off of worker backs.

Some caste-based norms in regions of 2.Arm would be sweet, though. At any rate, displaying wealth without obvious affiliation is a good way to get yourself roughed-up by sneakies, shaken down by militia and squeezed for bribes from the templarate–as well as identified as an obvious target for harrassment by nobles.

[Mood]

I would like to see sumptuary laws.

Yes. Yes, yes, yes.

[Lizzie]

You also have to keep in mind that Kadius would probably throw a fit if some Allanaki senator tried to pass laws restricting silk to noble use only.

If I was a Kadian with enough clout in my family to manipulate prices, I would probably -love- sumptuary laws. It would mean I get to double the price of linens, finally.  I can raise the prices big-time for "wealthy commoners," because if they want to look better than beggars, they are no longer allowed to wear silks. That would open the linen market BIG-time, for a Kadian.

I would totally special app a Kadian if I knew there were senate-imposed sumptuary laws for Allanak

[jstorrie]

But linen is cheap; if the market for it suddenly became huge, and Kadius had a lot of its infrastructure tied up in the silk market, it'd open them up to risk of competition. The GMHs do not like it when the Armboat is rocked.

[LauraMars]

A lot of southern silk garments as fucking uncomfortable as hell if you read the descriptions.  This should be a deterrent for the workaday commoner, even if the value (for some reason) isn't.  So too should silk's fragility deter mages, with their running around being wet and glowing all the time.  Water is bad for silk, as in, it completely ruins it.  So does fire, sand, lightning, and strong wind.  The only "element" I can think of that doesn't really ruin silk would be shadows.  So drovians, go nuts, I guess, if you don't mind being sneered at even more.  The rest of you, I frown.  I frown at you.  You are ruining your clothes.  Poor clothes!

[enigma]

I think that part of the problem is that when people think "nice clothes", they forget that linen is only second to silk, and is really nice stuff in its own right.  Maybe because it's a lot cheaper?

[Gimfalisette]

From http://www.armageddon.org/general/clothing.html , the relevant documentation:

Commoners often look to nobility for examples in most aspects of life, and fashion is no exception. The styles of commoner clothing available, while simpler and cheaper, often imitate that of nobles. For example, while nobles often wear ornately decorated silks and other lush fabrics, commoners wear cottons, sandcloth or other inexpensive textiles.

Cotton, with its shine and ability to take dye, has become the dominant material in commoners� clothing, while the secondary choice is linen, although those who can afford it will opt for silk. Clothes are decorated with bright floral or fauna patterns. Solid colors may be accented with elaborate stitchings. Both upper and lower classes appreciate lace of varying quality.

Silk and linen are both cheap in Tuluk. Silk is EXPENSIVE in Allanak, while linen and other materials are still cheap. Thus, in Allanak, wearing silk should be a status symbol, whereas in Tuluk it's much more about the craftsmanship of the item itself. Anyone can wear silk in Tuluk and it really shouldn't raise concerns as to them being "above" themselves, like it would in Allanak.

As LauraMars mentioned, the cut of the clothing is important in Allanak as well. The more restrictive the garment, the more of an "upper class" item it is. Something described as hampering movement or severely restrictive (I've seen both clothing and jewelry desced like this) should be worn only by nobles or their very pampered concubines of long standing.

A couple of items of silk for daily wearing, or all silk for special occasions, is OK for the upper tiers of commoners in Allanak.

[a strange shadow]

Even when playing an upper class citizen, I dislike decking my character out head to toe in silk.

It just doesn't feel very Zalanthan at all to me.

[jstorrie]

I think that part of the problem is that when people think "nice clothes", they forget that linen is only second to silk, and is really nice stuff in its own right.  Maybe because it's a lot cheaper?

My quickly-retired Tuluki noble loved him some linen. Personal preference for a slighty chunkier fabric.

I mean, seriously, I've worn silk in the IRL and not really dug it. My nice linen sheets, on the other hand, feel great.

[jstorrie]

Female players should feel free to come visit me if they don't believe me on that one, too.

[Simple]

That you have worn silk??

[Qzzrbl]

Female players should feel free to come visit me if they don't believe me on that one, too.

Sexist.... ¬_¬

::Edit::

I agree with alot that what was said here.... I think it would be a bad idea to wear silk if you're a lowly commoner, because some day you're going to be walking about the streets and you get that lovely, "You just got your ass sapped" echo. And after being dragged into an alley, you'll likely be killed by a pissed off thug who couldn't find anything worth taking off of you except for a few chunks of unworked obsidian and a bag of salt.

[Qzzrbl]

A lot of southern silk garments as fucking uncomfortable as hell if you read the descriptions.  This should be a deterrent for the workaday commoner, even if the value (for some reason) isn't.  So too should silk's fragility deter mages, with their running around being wet and glowing all the time.  Water is bad for silk, as in, it completely ruins it.  So does fire, sand, lightning, and strong wind.  The only "element" I can think of that doesn't really ruin silk would be shadows.  So drovians, go nuts, I guess, if you don't mind being sneered at even more.  The rest of you, I frown.  I frown at you.  You are ruining your clothes.  Poor clothes!

See.... If clothing degradation were in place.... 

[Lizzie]

What the Qzzrbl said...I've seen characters who claim to be hunters - and might even actually -be- hunters.. wearing silks. While out riding. This seems to me, very un-hunterish. I'm not saying that hunters should wear a uniform. It just doesn't make much sense of any kind, to me, that anyone would wear silk trousers while straddling a mount. If the thin material didn't cause *severe* chafing to the point of bleeding skin, it would wear out within the first day's ride and end up as nothing more than shredded cloth.

I see people wearing all kinds of weird stuff while they're out riding/hunting. But evening gowns, silken trousers, beaded silk blouses, silk and lace skirts...I mean come on. Unless your character is just doing a really bad job of hiding the fact that he isn't really a hunter at all, and you're RPing this intentionally, there's just no reason for it.

[Pale Horse]

What the Qzzrbl said...I've seen characters who claim to be hunters - and might even actually -be- hunters.. wearing silks. While out riding. This seems to me, very un-hunterish. I'm not saying that hunters should wear a uniform. It just doesn't make much sense of any kind, to me, that anyone would wear silk trousers while straddling a mount. If the thin material didn't cause *severe* chafing to the point of bleeding skin, it would wear out within the first day's ride and end up as nothing more than shredded cloth.

I see people wearing all kinds of weird stuff while they're out riding/hunting. But evening gowns, silken trousers, beaded silk blouses, silk and lace skirts...I mean come on. Unless your character is just doing a really bad job of hiding the fact that he isn't really a hunter at all, and you're RPing this intentionally, there's just no reason for it.

As much as I know what you're meaning, and I, too, have been guilty of having my characters ride about in what would be inappropriate clothing for the ordeal, I should point out that silk was actually used as an early form of armor for mounted warriors...at least the mongals used it, anyway.  Get a course enough form of silk, and it acts as a great way to keep arrow from embedding themselves too far in to your flesh, and are even more efficient at drawing the things back out by pulling on the material that got pulled inside when the shaft stuck you.

[psionic fungus]

Well... I think clean linens and silks were utilized mostly -under- leather armor.

The Japanese certainly knew that it could help prevent infection (and thus save lives) to have a light layer of a clean fabric under your armor, but silk just isn't durable enough to be used effectively by itself...

[Rindan]

If you worked at McDonalds, would you wear a suit to flip burgers (if there was no dress code)?  Probably not.  Even if you could afford it, you wouldn't do it.  Cleaning and cost aside, you wouldn't do it because you would feel very much 'out of your station'.  OK, now take a step away from our happy liberal democracies and try and imagine a world with brutally stark class division.  Would your commoner feel out of place wandering around in nice silk things?  Hell yes.  Cost aside, you should just feel wrong for stepping out of your station.  Walking into the Gaj in silk should get you the same sort of look you get if you walked into a dirty Boston Irish pub wearing a Tux.  People of your own class will instantly resent you.  People of a class higher than you will scorn you.  To add insult to injury, you will likely find yourself poorer when in the Gaj some drunkard dumps a drink on your silken lap.

I think most commoners would own no silk.  Moderately well off commoners might own some silk clothing, but would likely keep it packed away and only brought out for very special occasions.  Rich commoners might wear something closer to what a minor noble might wear, but only if they only deal with nobles.  Your Salarri walking into the Gaj wearing silk from head to toe is either very rich and can afford to burn through clothing rapidly, or very stupid.  Yeah, he might have a need to be there, but dressed head to toe in silk he isn't getting out with his clothing looking as nice as it was when he came in.

My advice?  Dress for your station, and dress for what your character does.  You might even consider a little layering and a second set of clothing.  Your noble aid or merchant might wear fine silk clothes when dealing with nobles (though not finer than the nobles ass you are trying to kiss) and rich commoners, but strip down to something a little more modest when they kick it back in the Gaj.

[Barzalene]

Also, while it may be possible to construct something weapon repellent from silk, the descs of the items available in game in no way hint at use of this technology.

[Tuannon]

If the cost of clothing was rather less, I suppose degradation would be a good thing to have.

Perhaps something to consider for Arm 2?

Or maybe rather than use a timer use a chance event similar to armour and shield breakage. If you stand outside in a sand storm without adequate protection you have an x percent chance of damaging your clothes. And so on...

[some guy]

If you worked at McDonalds, would you wear a suit to flip burgers (if there was no dress code)?  Probably not.  Even if you could afford it, you wouldn't do it.  Cleaning and cost aside, you wouldn't do it because you would feel very much 'out of your station'.  OK, now take a step away from our happy liberal democracies and try and imagine a world with brutally stark class division.  Would your commoner feel out of place wandering around in nice silk things?  Hell yes.  Cost aside, you should just feel wrong for stepping out of your station.

Much agreement. One of the things that many players seem to have trouble with is seeing the world from their character's perspective rather than from above, and the result is that such things as fashion and society-related customs are often lacking. Very rarely do I see anyone going "why is he wearing that? He doesn't fit in!" or anything of the sort, and many of the things that people in real life would think you strange for go completely unnoticed in the game.

While it's a difficult comparison to make, think about how you react to people, and especially strangers, in the real world. All that it takes for most people to form a first impression of someone, negative or not, is if they wear something a little odd. A guy walks into a diner wearing dirty slacks and a very worn hoodie with a plastic bag full of things? Most people would take him for a druggie or at least a poor and maybe homeless person. Is someone sitting in McDonalds eating a cheeseburger while wearing an opera coat? What the hell, right? If someone's wearing a burka or a turban then they're probably from the Middle-East, and if they're wearing lederhosen they're probably German or Swiss*.Just walk down the street wearing something very unusual and people will snigger and give you odd looks.

Things are of course somewhat different in Zalanthas concerning what people will and will not wear, but reactions to actions and appearances out of the norm are acknowledged much less than I believe and prefer that they would be. Some of this stems from the fact that it's a game, we aren't our PCs and they'll never be as deep and fleshed-out as an actual person, but a lot of the time I believe people simply just forget or neglect to react or comment when they see something unusual. And when people do, the targets of that discrimination rarely react to it as a real person probably would. If someone ridicules you, even a stranger, you it should make you feel awkward unless your character is specifically the kind of person who doesn't give a shit what anyone else thinks, and that should not be the norm. Zalanthan fashion and dress custom is a big deal, in the city-states especially, and I think that if the players start to really look at other characters and put some serious thought into how they would react to their appearance and behaviour, a more in-depth social atmosphere could evolve. Because as it is now, I think the social aspect of this game is incredibly shallow for an RPIMUD.

Would you sit and chat at the bar with someone who is covered in blood?

Would you think nothing strange of a gemmer wearing clothes and jewelry that dwarf the outfits of junior nobles?

Would you utterly ignore the fact that a rinther wearing filthy, stinking rags just sat down right next to you?

Would you care that an Allanaki commoner is wearing clothes obviously recognized as Tuluki fashion, and vice versa?

Some players react adequately to these things, but a lot of players don't acknowledge it at all, and this is why doing such things has become almost perfectly acceptable. It takes an effort from both sides, one party to react properly to such anomalities, and the other party to stop being the exceptions just for the sake of having the best, with no regard to the documentation and the game world. Some characters will have a suitable reason for wearing or appearing as what isn't socially expected and acceptable, but they shouldn't be exempt from the reactions that this would bring, either.

So the next time you play an independent tailor, don't wear a full suit of silk just because you haven't been able to sell it off. If you're a rinther, don't feel obligated to fill every equipment slot with something that is just a few points below the coded threshold for what will trigger the mugger scripts. If you're a hunter, are you really perfectly happy spending most of your life covered on blood and guts? If you spend half of your days in a temple playing with fire and smoke, is wearing a fine silk robe such a good idea?

Immersion.


*I know they don't actually wear that, but it's a convenient generalization.

[Lizzie]

Sometimes if you -do- RP the character who notices the odd and inappropriate outfit of the guy next to them, you end up being the one ridiculed. Take the gloved cestuses for example: their description clearly states they are a weapon. A google search clearly states they are a weapon. They're not gloves. A "gloved" cestus means only that the weapon has a cloth backing that makes it fit better over the back of the hand. Cestus = brass knuckles. Or in Zalanthas, bone knuckles. The only function it has is to be used as a weapon. "Covering the hands" or "protecting the hands" is not why people wear them. They wear them because they want to cause serious deadly harm to their target.

This is in line with the whole silk-wearing subject, because it has to do with a mismatch, a misunderstanding, or possibly an ignorance of either the game world or your character's place in it or the "things" your character owns. Basically, if you wear a cestus into a bar that is known (at least in part) for its rowdiness, or has been known to get rowdy (e.g. has the brawl code), then you should expect people to assume that your character is there specifically to cause some serious damage to someone in a fight. It is a calling card; an invitation to beat the shit out of someone.

But if no one ever reacts to those things as the things that they are, then how can one person react appropriately, and not be criticized? How can the low-ranking Militia soldier react appropriately, when the noble walking in, the two aides, the rinthi, and the templar all see this thing and not even react enough to show disinterest in it? The guy is standing there waiting to beat the shit out of someone. With a deadly weapon that can place someone's nose at the back of their spine if they hit it hard enough. And only one person - a low-ranking nobody - even thinks to do something about it. So they can't do something about it, because they'd be ridiculed by everyone else who thinks this item is just there for decoration, or is something other than what it is.

The same goes for wearing a silk skirt to mine obsidian in a sandstorm. It makes no sense, it doesn't prove that your character is SO bad-ass he doesn't need armor. All it proves is that the player doesn't take the game world, the atmosphere, the UNcoded potential consequences of his choices, into consideration.

[DANCE COMMANDER]

I can't tell you how happy it makes me to see someone telling me how to play.

[Mood]

I find Lizzie's example to be hilarious.

[some guy]

I can't tell you how happy it makes me to see someone telling me how to play.

If you're one of the players contributing to the problem without a suitable reason, you may have to accept that other players comment when it starts to have a negative impact on the game. If you're not, noone is telling you how to play. We're talking about an area of roleplay which is severely lacking, so I don't see what's wrong with addressing that.

[Conspiracy Theory]

(Derailing the derailment to center on cestii here. Beware!)

While I agree with the sentiments of your post, I'm not sure the cestus example is quite as good as the mining-with-silk-skirt-in-sandstorm one. On Zalanthas a good portion of citizens in both of the city-states and a vast, overwhelming majority of everyone outside them regularly carry weapons - multiple weapons, mind you - on their person.

http://artfiles.art.com/images/-/A-Forbes/Detailed-Views-of-a-Roman-Cestus-a-Leather-Glove-Used-in-Ancient-Boxing-Giclee-Print-C12364282.jpeg

A functional glove with some studs on the back of it really doesn't seem that threatening to me when the majority of the tavern (undoubtedly so in the dominant taverns of Allanak and Luir's) has a blade tucked at their side. People wander around with clawed gloves, spiked boots, and bladed bracers everywhere without getting funny looks, and this is, in my opinion, the way it should be. It's a violent world. Not everybody wants to strip down and dress up for a "classy" evening at the Gaj.

Silks in the Gaj or while mining? No.
Cestii in the Gaj? Sure. Who cares? Hell, who'd even notice? That guy over there's got a friggin greatsword hanging from his back.

Sorry for the derail, but it doesn't seem to me that Zalanthans are really gonna be that sensitive to a funky glove in places where three out of four of them probably have at least a knife on their person at any given time.

[Mood]

You misunderstood, Conspiracy Theory - Lizzie used that example to take a shot at a specific PC.

[DANCE COMMANDER]

I can't tell you how happy it makes me to see someone telling me how to play.

If you're one of the players contributing to the problem without a suitable reason, you may have to accept that other players comment when it starts to have a negative impact on the game. If you're not, noone is telling you how to play. We're talking about an area of roleplay which is severely lacking, so I don't see what's wrong with addressing that.

There's a million different scenarios where a player might deviate from the docu..

Wow. Look at me caring. Ick.

[Lizzie]

How interesting Mood that you know about some ulterior motive I didn't even realize I had. I've seen several people walk around wearing these things, and I have wondered why no one stopped them. It isn't the same as having a blade tucked in your belt. And it isn't a studded glove like the one of Conspiracy Theory's link.  The description of the item, in game, defines it -very- specifically as a weapon. Assess -v shows that it's a weapon, and using "view" in a shop shows it as a weapon. It is -not- armor, clawed or otherwise. It has no coded OR described protective value that I'm aware of; it doesn't cover the hand, it can't keep sand out from between your fingers. It is a weapon, and it is nothing other than a weapon. It's the Zalanthan version of brass knuckles, and I can't imagine why anyone would wear them outside of a combat situation, and I used the example because it fits the concern.

The concern being, that even if you DO want to react appropriately to seeing inappropriate things, you are often prevented from doing so because the IC characters who have the "authority" and/or major influence are often played by players who don't realize that what they're looking at is inappropriate...and if a Senior Noble has no problem with Rinthi-Joe wearing silk pants, then it makes it EXTREMELY difficult for Mundane John's player to RP the appropriate response, without Senior Noble coming down on his ass for having the nerve to criticize, snub, insult, ignore, or otherwise react to a rinthi's silk pants.

The same goes for cestuses, the same goes for treatment of half-elves, the same goes for treatment of magickers. It is extremely difficult to RP your character's appropriate reaction to ICly inappropriate behaviors, if the influential PCs aren't RPing that any of it bothers them. When I was new, I observed these things first-hand, and assumed that the staff just didn't really expect anyone to adhere to the documentation.

Then I came here and started reading the GDB and realized that what I was observing was -supposed- to be the exception to the rule. But I can only imagine the confusion of other new players who read one thing, and observe something completely different. I read that a cestus is a WEAPON - not armor. I see it in someone's hand. I think - well sheesh, shouldn't someone tell this person to put his weapon away, unless he's fixing to bang heads? And no one does a thing. No one says a thing. A Legionairre comes by and smiles at cestus-wearer, with no concern at all that the guy is flexing his bare fingers around a set of brass knuckles. A Kadian flashes a beaming smile at his Tuluki aide, who is wearing a full set of Kurac scrub gear. A Salarri gives his favorite hunter a hug, around the hunter's home-made armor, without a stitch of Salarr gear on him. A noble buys her bard another garnet ring, bringing the bard's current count to 40 times the value in silks and jewelry that the noble owns, let alone wears in public.

You see all this stuff, as a new player, and you wonder - if these are ALL such common exceptions to the rule, then maybe they should change the rule. Because ICly, someone should be making a fuss, but no one is.

[jstorrie]

A Legionairre comes by and smiles at cestus-wearer, with no concern at all that the guy is flexing his bare fingers around a set of brass knuckles.

My Legionnaire will 'notice' it when he has a reason to shake the guy down for a bribe. Or there are no superiors around and he just doesn't feel like working right now.

A Kadian flashes a beaming smile at his Tuluki aide, who is wearing a full set of Kurac scrub gear.

My Kadian is soft-balling his newb aide because I'm about to set him up to take the fall for me over a botched spice deal down in 'Nak.

A Salarri gives his favorite hunter a hug, around the hunter's home-made armor, without a stitch of Salarr gear on him.

Yeah, but that hunter is the one who gathers me all of my poisons. I'm not going to risk my hookup just to make another few bucks.

A noble buys her bard another garnet ring, bringing the bard's current count to 40 times the value in silks and jewelry that the noble owns, let alone wears in public.

I secretly hate my aide and am trying to get her mugged. Also, I'm having kind of an aide-off with Lord Fancypants over there, and I'm sure as hell not letting him show me up.

It's a good reminder that cestuses can be obvious weapons, and I bet some people haven't noticed. But beyond that, just assume good faith; people probably have reasons for doing or not doing what they're doing or not doing. In the case of weaponlike equipment in public areas, maybe those PCs are happily treading as far over the line as they can get away with as a way of displaying their social influence, or just sheer ballsiness?

[aruna]

It isn't the same as having a blade tucked in your belt. And it isn't a studded glove like the one of Conspiracy Theory's link.  The description of the item, in game, defines it -very- specifically as a weapon.

Are we talking about something more like this? http://www.play.net/images/weapons/troll_claw.jpg

If yeah, I'd say the problem lies in the object's sdesc, not wholly on the players. Having never actually read that item's mdesc, I imagined it being much like CT's link.

I'm not negating the possibility of inappropriate play happening out there, I'm just saying, sometimes you have time to read through every PC's equipment and sometimes you don't. This is where effective and accurate sdescs help.

[Only He Stands There]

Gloved cestii can be worn on the hands, and (possibly) have armor value when done so.

They're gloves, too. Not just weapons. Gloves.

[Lizzie]

I have no idea what the image of this item is supposed to look like. I only know what the description of it states that it IS. And it IS a weapon. It is NOT armor. It is not a "cestused glove." It is not a "pair of gloves with bone-plated knuckles attached." It is a weapon - that instead of sheathing, is kept around your fingers. Just like brass knuckles, with a drape over the back of the hand. Fingerless, palmless, wrist-less. Just "brass knuckles" made out of bone, with a draped back. It isn't useful as gloves to protect from sand, because it is fingerless and wristless. It isn't useful as armor, because it lacks the padding necessary to be used for combat protection. Its function is that of a weapon. It can be worn, yes. But it is not armor, it isn't clothing. It's a weapon. Much like a crossbow is a weapon. A crossbow isn't armor, it isn't clothing, and it is worn on the arm. It has no other function at all - it is a weapon. A crossbow though wouldn't look or be very threatening to anyone, without a bolt in it. A cestus is a weapon all by itself, without any ammunition necessary.

Oh and Jstorrie, your post obviously emphasized the exceptions to the rule. My point, which I thought was pretty clear, is that I have observed that these "exceptions" seem to be way too common to BE exceptions. When something is common, it ceases to be an exception. That was the point I was making with those examples.

[Tarx]

I guess I don't see the cestus thing as a problem.  Maybe people don't care about cestii because they don't seem as threatening when worn thusly.  Maybe they are viewed the same as some other armor items...bracers with spikes on them are "weapons," too.  So are gloves or gauntlets with spikes on them.  These are things that are made that are intended to cause bodily harm and also be worn.  *shrug*

But this thread is about silly people wearing too much silk and looking too rich, so I'll get back to that topic.
I look pretty closely at the class of citizen (or non-citizen) by their dress.  If their dress does not match their occupation, station, or place in the world, then I may take issue with it and deal with it in-character through any number of methods.

[jstorrie]

My point, which I thought was pretty clear, is that I have observed that these "exceptions" seem to be way too common to BE exceptions.

Well, my current PC spends a lot of time in the major human settlements, and I see only one PC who often rocks cestii. So I don't really get why you've got your hackles up about it.

[Lizzie]

My point, which I thought was pretty clear, is that I have observed that these "exceptions" seem to be way too common to BE exceptions.

Well, my current PC spends a lot of time in the major human settlements, and I see only one PC who often rocks cestii. So I don't really get why you've got your hackles up about it.

Probably because a few people decided to pick on the example, rather than addressing the point on the actual topic that I was trying to make, using the cestus as the example. If I had only seen one person using it regularly, if it was -also- described as useable for armor, I wouldn't have mentioned it. I can think of plenty of other examples. Some of which I have posted. But for some reason, everyone wants to focus on my mention of the cestus, and nitpick it until it no longer has anything to do with the topic. Which is - the use of silk by people who probably shouldn't be using silk - and by extension, the lack of "taking your atmosphere, your character's status, the status of others around your characters, and the actual items involved, into consideration when you roleplay a scene."

[Conspiracy Theory]

Sorry for the derail I caused. This'll be my last post. And I did mean to say that your point is well-made aside from that one tiny exception.

I just don't feel like cestii from what I know about them are a big deal when people waltz around with spikes and blades on their gloves and bracers and boots and everywhere else they can fit them, along with hauling a gigantic skull-crushing hammer across their backs and within reach.

Besides that, just because something's tagged as wieldable shouldn't suddenly, magically, change what it actually can still function as. If I walk around "wielding" a walking stick, for example, should I be assailed by every soldier within earshot for brandishing a weapon?

But that's just my opinion. I've only had one character ever use cestii, and he made it to about 8 hours. Haha.

[Qzzrbl]

Sorry for the derail I caused. This'll be my last post. And I did mean to say that your point is well-made aside from that one tiny exception.

I just don't feel like cestii from what I know about them are a big deal when people waltz around with spikes and blades on their gloves and bracers and boots and everywhere else they can fit them, along with hauling a gigantic skull-crushing hammer across their backs and within reach.

Besides that, just because something's tagged as wieldable shouldn't suddenly, magically, change what it actually can still function as. If I walk around "wielding" a walking stick, for example, should I be assailed by every soldier within earshot for brandishing a weapon?

But that's just my opinion. I've only had one character ever use cestii, and he made it to about 8 hours. Haha.

IT annoys me too, that just about every character and his/her mother walks around and about decked out in full suits of chitin and armed to the teeth. And everyone jumps your ass when you ask, "Why the fuck do you look like you're about to fend off a clutch of mantis? There aren't any mantis in this bar...".

And a walking stick isn't a weapon. It's a walking stick. I think Lizzie was applying all of this to things that are -obviously- weapons.

[X-D]

Because the bar can be more a danger then a clutch of mantis.


No joke, Any of my PCs would sooner walk into a mantis clutch naked then most the bars.

Me, I'd like to cover the blood part. Now, not so much on hunters. But warriors, some at least might consider this as a sort of advertisement. And one that makes sense. There are two ways to get blood on your gear. either splatter from totally fucking something up or from wounds. Either way the PC has survived and there is a good chance they might have a clue which end of the sword is the killin end.

Next you have to consider climate. at 140+ temp and 0% humidity you can bet that blood is going to dry in pretty much a matter of moments, specialy adding in the gale force winds that there is normaly. dried blood gets nice and dark, mix in a bit of dust and sand and it might as well be black.

So its not like these people are walking about dripping gore like Carrie. but instead more like thin blackened scabs, might be a bit crusty, but meh.

Besides, anybody who has had a long lived warrior can tell you that keeping your gear clean can rapidly turn into a full time job when a simple ride  to anywhere ends in the dreaded blood splatter, which in one fell swoop covers EVERYTHING in the room.

Heh.

[Only He Stands There]

  This is a weapon meant to be wielded in either hand, but it is also
a piece of armor.  The weapon is made of heavy leather worn on the hands
to protect them, and reinforced with chitin plates.  Spikes are mounted
on the back to help block sword blows, and another large spike sprouts
from the forearm for purposes of bludgeoning the enemy.

Emphasis mine. Thanks.

[Manhattan]

http://www.strangehorizons.com/2001/20011022/medieval_clothing.shtml

Check it out! Might provide some insight.

[AmandaGreathouse]

From http://www.armageddon.org/general/clothing.html , the relevant documentation:

Cotton, with its shine and ability to take dye, has become the dominant material in commoners� clothing, while the secondary choice is linen, although those who can afford it will opt for silk. Clothes are decorated with bright floral or fauna patterns. Solid colors may be accented with elaborate stitchings. Both upper and lower classes appreciate lace of varying quality.

Silk and linen are both cheap in Tuluk. Silk is EXPENSIVE in Allanak, while linen and other materials are still cheap. Thus, in Allanak, wearing silk should be a status symbol, whereas in Tuluk it's much more about the craftsmanship of the item itself. Anyone can wear silk in Tuluk and it really shouldn't raise concerns as to them being "above" themselves, like it would in Allanak.

A couple of items of silk for daily wearing, or all silk for special occasions, is OK for the upper tiers of commoners in Allanak.

I know I couldn't agree with this more. Especially if the character is part of a merchant house or has the merchant class in general. Becauuse I also believe it siad in some of the documentation somewhere that merchants tend to have a fairly good income. I would like to see more people in Tuluk wwearing silk myself, because it -is- so common there. And it says in the documentation that those who can afford it, do opt for silk. But I also think that the choices should be wider on the silks in Tuluk, since they are so abundant.

[Ourla]

But I also think that the choices should be wider on the silks in Tuluk, since they are so abundant.

The silk selection in Tuluk is pretty comprehensive.  I can also vouch for the fact that the things in the Kadian shops get rotated by the imms on a regular basis (I love this... please, please do it for Salarr, too). 

The fact that silk clothing plays such a large role in Zalanthas is a beautiful thing.  I've seen some great RP come from its scarcity in Allanak and its abundance in Tuluk.  I know it's not everyone's cup of tea to have to change their character's clothing, but I do love to see PCs who wear linen or cotton while they're in the city, instead of sporting a full load of armor everywhere they go.

[Nyr]

But I also think that the choices should be wider on the silks in Tuluk, since they are so abundant.

The silk selection in Tuluk is pretty comprehensive.  I can also vouch for the fact that the things in the Kadian shops get rotated by the imms on a regular basis (I love this... please, please do it for Salarr, too). 

Interesting that you bring this up.  I was working on that.  You should see some more variation in Salarr shops within the next week.

[AmandaGreathouse]

But I also think that the choices should be wider on the silks in Tuluk, since they are so abundant.

The silk selection in Tuluk is pretty comprehensive.  I can also vouch for the fact that the things in the Kadian shops get rotated by the imms on a regular basis (I love this... please, please do it for Salarr, too). 

Sorry, there is a good deal of variety, just not much in certain colors (like hardly any selection in black or gray that I've seen).

[jstorrie]

The colours that are 'in' rotate around as Kadius follows trends. If you wait a while, black or grey will pop up eventually. Or you could find a PC tailor.

[AmandaGreathouse]

The colours that are 'in' rotate around as Kadius follows trends. If you wait a while, black or grey will pop up eventually. Or you could find a PC tailor.

Thanks. Because -truly- I dig the black silk. -So- awesome.

[Ourla]

You should see some more variation in Salarr shops within the next week.

*swoon*

[aruna]

Or you could find a PC tailor.

*two thumbs*

You should see some more variation in Salarr shops within the next week.

*two thumbs*

[cisalus]

Or you could find a PC tailor.

*two thumbs*

*four mantis thumbs*
Definitely.

edit- sorry to raise the thread, wasn't paying attention.

[Shoka Windrunner]

Just throwing something out there that I think I remember from history here.

I believe in the Orient, (I can't remember what country) their soldiers started wearing very tightly woven silk shirts and pants under their armor.

This was due to the fact that silk can hold against a lot of pressure from being punctured clear through. 

So when they got shot by an arrow, they could actually pull the arrow out of the wound by grabbing the silk and yanking.

Now maybe I dreamed this, I should go look it up.  But if it's true and makes sense, then this might be something that elite or high ranking soldiers do.  Wearing silk _under_ their armor.

[Conspiracy Theory]

I believe that started with the Mongolians, Genghis Khan era. Their horsemen used this technique. If the arrow even pierced their armor it'd stop at the silk. In fact they'd just give their silk shirts a tug and bam, the whole arrow would fall away intact, not losing the head or anything.

Best part? Easy as that, they've got themselves a new arrow.

If they didn't invent it (it's possible it was one of the Chinese kingdoms and they just stole the technology), they're definitely the first to put it to widespread and effective use. Just one of many things the Mongols did different. They really revolutionized warfare in their time.

Edit: I'm a rabid war geek. Check this link:
http://www.historynet.com/mongol-invasions-battle-of-liegnitz.htm

[Bebop]

*sigh* I remember two years or so ago when I had a half elf wearing a single piece of silk.  A very nice cloak and she was sat down in Allanak by someone very close and powerful to the templarate and asked why a breed was putting on airs by wearing silk.  She quickly bribed him with expensive meats.

I think Rindan's example of wearing a suit to McDonalds or even to say ... Wal-Mart to buy groceries, is spot on.

[Elgiva]

When my character is wearing something strange, I'd actually love someone to react to it. I had a warrior-kind of person who all of sudden started to wear -white- silks from head to toe - and it had an inner meaning, which (unfortunately) went unnoticed. Not to mention that odd things someone wears are a good excuse for some RP, eh? Instead of sitting at the bar idlining, you can scold someone for wearing something inappropriate.

[Shoka Windrunner]

Yeah Mongolians, sounds right.  Well then, if this was discovered to be a property of Zalanthan silk, dunno if it would act the same or not, I could see officers and elite guard units wearing silk beneath their armor.  Not when walking about town and chugging shots Firebreather.

Not to say they couldn't, but I have a feeling, knowing how people in Zalanthas are, mean and rough, someone would probably throw shit on someone who wasn't a noble, who was wearing silk, just to have a laugh.

[Ami]

*Drools*
*has dreams about affording even 10% of a silk dress*

[Archbaron]

City-wide dress laws and even just made up ones by nobles would be a great way to supply uniformity into the city without cramping the style too much by offering a wide array of options. That'll help newbies pick out a Byn sergeant or know if that man is really a guard for a certain House. Tor and Fale are actually -very- good about this because they employ so many PCs and they supply them nice cloaks. I'd like to see the same done with other houses as they grow, and I've noticed that Oash has picked up the practice as well.

[Mood]

Nobles don't make laws.

[BlackMagic0]

Nobles don't make laws.

They just harass you and eat your soul if they dislike you.

[Southie]

Technically, nobles do make laws. The Senate in Allanak is the highest legislative body in the city under the Highlord himself. The nine houses each have a vote in the Senate, weighted by their tier, and can pass laws related to budgeting, festivals, etc. None of the merchant houses have a vote in the Senate, and neither does the templarate. (That isn't to say that these groups can't influence laws by other means.)

Tuluk has a similar system, except instead of a Senate they have a Triumvirate made up of the Sun King (or whoever speaks for him), the nobility, and the templarate (both orders vote together). I think bunnies are involved somehow too, but I could be wrong.

Of course templars in either city can make 'ad hoc' laws mostly on their whim. But acts of the Senate/Triumvirate are what's considered "official".

What nobles don't do is enforce laws. That is up to the militia and the templarate of both cities. And we all know how that goes.

[BlackMagic0]

Tuluk has a similar system, except instead of a Senate they have a Triumvirate made up of the Sun King (or whoever speaks for him), the nobility, and the templarate (both orders vote together). I think bunnies are involved somehow too, but I could be wrong.

Yes, you are quite right, Bunnies make up 99.4% of the vote in Tuluk.