Training backstab in the Bynn

[spicemustflow]

From what i understand, backstab isn't just slitting someone's throat from behind, it's any form or dirty trick or feint during combat, done in purpose of landing the finishing blow on the opponent. So, do you think that it should be acceptable if you try to do it while sparring every one in a while? I mean good warriors don't just pound on you like a drum, they use trick and maneuvers all the time, so I don't think backstabbing someone would be too inappropriate in training. I'm not even sure if it's considered inappropriate, but I think I remember someone said it. The only negative thing is that it screams: "I'm an assassin!!!" to everybody.

[manonfire]

Backstab is a dedicated attempt to kill your target and thus, doesn't faill under the sphere of 'combat training'.

While I agree that there ought to be another means to train it, there ain't.

[RogueGunslinger]

Go for it if you don't mind accidentally killing your sparring partners, or having your Sergeant beat the piss out of you.

I think backstab has one purpose only; to kill someone as quick and efficiently as possible. So 'training' backstab is rather silly when you think about it. Because the first time you get it right...

[Rarsh]

The 'massive damage' aspect of backstab is true even with a sparring weapon? That seems odd, considering it's only possible with a stabbing weapon. But the helpfile says 'backstab' is just a generic name for 'critical strike,' and of course you could train those, with light and blunted wooden weapons or whatever, without any overwhelming fear of killing someone. (At least not more than your extremely strong dwarf using a blunted axe.) And if you -did- kill a sparring partner, well ... shit happens.

Depends on the echo, I'd imagine, and the helpfile. 'Sap' says, "This skill entails sneaking up on an opponent and rapping them soundly on the head, with the intent of knocking them out." You absolutely can't sneak up on someone while you're fighting then, so I don't see how anyone could justify using 'sap' during sparring. (Despite the enigmatic 'It is possible to sap fighting victims' statement in the helpfile, which gets more confusing every time I read it.) But backstab reads differently to me.

And how would any other PC -know- you were using 'backstab'? Does an attempted critical strike look that different than what you normally do with your sparring daggers? Especially if it's possible to do during a regular spar?

[manonfire]

There's no point in attempting a backstab with a sparring weapon, so the code doesn't allow it.

[Rarsh]

I would prefer that you not completely undermine my argument with a fact, of all things.

That's just rude.

[X-D]

That and most PCs will consider it an attempt to kill and retaliate in kind. It is a good way to lose a PC.

[Fnord]

Sneak out and go hunting. Kill two birds with one... dagger.

[Malken]

Do like the rest of us and practice backstab on verrin hawks, please.

..this is meant as a joke..

[brytta.leofa]

... the code doesn't allow it.

Yup.  The common training daggers are not "stabbing" weapons.

[Synthesis]

They used to be stabbing weapons.

And there used to be not such a fuss about it.

Regarding damage, the damage could be minimized by a simple check that says "If (weaponflag=(sparring or training)) then (Damage=DamageRoll*0.1)" or something quite simple like that.  Further, I'm pretty sure that, when the training daggers -were- stabbing weapons, the damage tended to be fairly minimal.

Hell, I remember one guy (whose player was later made a Staff member) allowing his IC brother to backstab him with a training dagger for practice. 

How 'bout dem apples?

[Conspiracy Theory]

I once had a character in a rough sort of clan, with a particular tough-guy as a leader. He dictated that, when we had four or more members available, we'd have a group battle that was to as closely as possible resemble actual combat. That is, "no holds barred".

My character opened such fights with a sap attempt, and others commonly threw sparring knives or spears at one another. There were mid-fight rescues, guard and subdue attempts, retreat-and-repeat throwing, and everything else the code would allow us to do. Funnest sparring sessions I've ever been a part of.

And dangerous? Hell yeah. Really felt like I was playing Armageddon, honestly.

[jstorrie]

Backstabbing with a sparring weapon is conceptually silly because there's no way you could land a 'critical strike' with a fake weapon.

If you are in the Byn and getting your backstab skill up is really a big deal to you–
- get someone else in the Byn to train you in backstab
- use backstab when you're out on contracts
- log yourself training it alone and send in a request for a skill boost

But really, it's just one skill, man. If you can't find a way to train it in the role you're in, just don't train it. It's not going to ruin the game for you.

[psionic fungus]

I wouldn't do it.

That said, we just had a rather detailed discussion about how training backstab is ridiculous, and a variety of solutions were proposed...  Hopefully things will be different in 2.Arm.

[Angela Christine]

But really, it's just one skill, man. If you can't find a way to train it in the role you're in, just don't train it. It's not going to ruin the game for you.

The problem is that the branching system encourages practicing skills you don't need, just in case they are the key to getting a skill you would use all the time.


Suppose you want to play an intrepid explorer.  Now you know that the Climb skill would be very, very handy, but in general the best guild would be Ranger.  You believe that Rangers can branch Climb, so it's all good.  (For whatever reason, you can't get a subguild with Climb).  Unfortunately, you haven't memorized the skill trees and you have no idea which of skills you currently possess might eventually branch to Climb.  Archery?  Hunt?  Cooking?  Who knows, it is a mystery.  You can make do with using climbing ropes and other equipment to help you climb without the skill, but no matter how much climbing you do (nor how many times you fall on your head and knock yourself out) you will never develop the Climb skill until you master the branching skill.  Since you don't know which skill is important, you find yourself cooking up unending piles of tubers just in case Cooking is the secret to life.   

Mages have the same problem, in spades.  Most of the starting spells seem kind of lame, at least the power level a newbie mage can manage.  But since people are always complaining about mages being overpowered, you have to assume that something cool hides behind a lame starting spell.  So you are left casting spells you don't need, spells your character may have no conceivable use for, just to get past it.  Suppose you had a starting spell that turns things purple.  You don't even like purple!  But you've turned everything you own purple, hopes of getting past the purple spell.  You've even gone out and bought cheap crap, just so that you could turn it purple.  You pick up trash off the streets just so you can take it home and turn it purple.  Your temple is piled to the rafters with purple crap.  And once you branch whatever branches off of Purplize, you will never ever turn anything purple every again.  You don't even like purple.


Likewise, an Assassin who joins the Byn can get by without using Backstab much.  But what if something really awesome that a Bynner would use all the damned time branches off of Backstab?  Backstab is a defining skill for Assassins, so it seems reasonable that awesome things might branch off of it.  They only way to know for sure is to max out your Backstab and see what happens.


An intense drive to practice skills you don't need is an inherent flaw in the branching system.  That doesn't mean branching is a bad system, but it is imperfect.

[LittleLostThief]

There are three ways that I can EASILY think of right now to train your backstab up and none of them have anything to do with sparring.

Quit thinking of backstab as a spar worthy skill, and free your mind.

[Kevo]

Ask your superiors in there's anyone they need roughed up during practice.

Whoops, sorry skinny, didn't mean to get you in that long neck of yours.

[Maybe42or54]

Well, the problem I see with training backstab is that backstab is a skill to kill your opponent as quickly as possible. You can't practice stabbing them in their armor. You are -trying- to get where there is no armor. You want to get them in their armpit, neck, inner thigh, eyes, crotch, etc... By sparring with backstab, you are aiming for the places where people don't usually wear armor and since you are not very good at backstab, there is a good chance you are going to fuck up and kill someone. To use backstab, the majority of the time, your opponent shouldn't know that you are trying to stab him, or he wont let you get close. If you are trying to practice by hitting armor, then you should be training your piercing skill, not your backstab skill.

[Fnord]

Backstabbing with a sparring weapon is conceptually silly because there's no way you could land a 'critical strike' with a fake weapon.

Put a dull piece of bone or wood in the right person's hands and they will critical strike the shit out of you.

[brytta.leofa]

Put a dull piece of bone or wood in the right person's hands and they will critical strike the shit out of you.

Speaking of which... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yawara, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kubotan

"With the exception of the cane or walking stick...none of the martial arts weapons are legal for street carry and self-protection. These include the Yawara stick (a short piece of wood designed to reinforce a punch or an edge of fist strike, also used in Bo-Kibo fighting techniques to hook into the corner of a man's mouth, punching out his teeth and then ripping his cheek open to his ear). Often improperly called a Judo stick, the Yawara is more often taught to Jujitsu students.

...The Kubotan was an evolution of a previous system developed by Kubota called pen fighting. Seeking a simple self-defense method that could be used by average American Citizens with little training, Kubota built techniques around solidly constructed ballpoint pens."

[jstorrie]

But what if something really awesome that a Bynner would use all the damned time branches off of Backstab?

For the sake of clearing this up, I will verify right now that nothing that branches from backstab is so unlike backstab that a PC who never has cause to backstab would need it. For all of the people new to backstab-having guilds–you're not going to get bandagemaking or floristry or wagoncrafting out of it, or even something general-purposey like 'climb' or 'listen.' You'll get something you would expect to rationally come from training surprise critical strikes. This one is not a 'funny branch.' And if you feel you need something 'further down the branch tree' but will never, ever have reason to use or train its prerequisite, you could always make your case via request and ask to have some skills swapped around; it's not unheard of, if the reason is very good.

Ask your superiors in there's anyone they need roughed up during practice.

Whoops, sorry skinny, didn't mean to get you in that long neck of yours.

This is absolutely the sort of creativity that you should be aiming for if you've absolutely gotta train something specific. Novel but still rational reasons to apply a skill.

[Krath]

Backstabbing with a sparring weapon is conceptually silly because there's no way you could land a 'critical strike' with a fake weapon.

Put a dull piece of bone or wood in the right person's hands and they will critical strike the shit out of you.

I agree with this. My problem with Not being able to "practice" backstab is because it is realistic to train it. If any of you have had any martial arts
training with weapons at all you will know you practice with wooden weapons on each other. Why cant backstabbing with wooden/sparring
weapons just be perceived as a light blow against a critical pressure point, an artery, or any spot which will cause the maximum amount of pain? Both
parties, the assaulter and assaulted can learn, one being where to strike the other how to prevent it or stop full penetration in a real battle.

[flurry]

The problem is that the branching system encourages practicing skills you don't need, just in case they are the key to getting a skill you would use all the time.

Amen to this.  Not that I mind the system we have, but I know what you mean.  I had a very long lived guild_buglar, that never branched a particular skill (which would have been nice to have) because there were certain other skills that didn't make much sense to use.  I tried to come up with reasons to use one particular skill, but it felt lame. I guess I could have just requested it based on time played alone, but I didn't try.

[jstorrie]

I agree with this. My problem with Not being able to "practice" backstab is because it is realistic to train it. If any of you have had any martial arts
training with weapons at all you will know you practice with wooden weapons on each other. Why cant backstabbing with wooden/sparring
weapons just be perceived as a light blow against a critical pressure point, an artery, or any spot which will cause the maximum amount of pain?

Why can't you backstab someone that you're already in combat with? I think you'll find that the two questions have the same answer. The nature of backstabbing isn't just 'critical strikes.' It's 'surprise critical strikes from someone who you weren't in combat with.' If someone is waiting for you to backstab them in the middle of a sparring ring, well, you aren't really surprising them, are you? And if you do surprise them and jump them without consent, well, that's not really 'sparring', is it?

[some guy]

Even if sparring daggers were stabbing weapons, the damage they can codedly do would be far from instantly lethal. It takes maxed backstab and truly awesome weapons to consistently kill in one blow, so a sparring dagger would do much less damage upon a succesful backstab. If you aren't really good at backstab, I'd imagine the damage would be in the neighborhood of a vicious hit at most.

Is it realistic to practice backstab with a sparring weapon (if you could) during training? You could argue for and against. I could definitely see the validity of practicing your aim, your technique and how to strike the right spot. I think that's the biggest component of it too, because the last bit which consists of the act of shoving the blade into a victim really isn't the most important part, it sort of comes natural once you have everything else covered. Going by this common logic, you shouldn't be able to become very good at conventional fighting by sparring, either.

Do I want to see everyone maxing their backstab in the sparring ring? No, definitely not. On the other hand, the alternative that most opt for is to go out and backstab rats and squirrels, and I'm not too happy with that either. I would honestly rather know that I was killed by someone who trained for years in a mercenary unit than someone who spent years slaughtering rodents and insects.