Training backstab in the Bynn

[Maybe42or54]

The one thing I think the helpfile is not stating correctly is that it gives the impression that backstab is just a critical strike.
Yes, it is a critical strike. Yes, it is a called shot, but it is both at the same time performed on an unsuspecting target.

Warriors have their own form of critical strikes, but it isn't a called shot(Read* You didn't call it). That is why they'll bludgeon
the shit out of of my head. Pierce my neck. Etc.. I've been one hit ko'ed before. I've been killed, from full health, in three
hits. This is performed on a suspecting target, or an unsuspecting  target. It works great both ways.

Rangers have their own form of called shot. It is called archery. I've almost been killed a few times like this. The same applies
for this. It can be performed on a suspecting target, but it has a greater chance on an unsuspecting target.


The problem with actively trying to "train" backstab in a bynn sparring room is that you aren't training correctly. If I am the guard, I am actively looking for you and I know, for a fact, you are there. You, the assassin, are sneaking up on a target that knows you are there. Defeating the purpose. When you do sneak up on me, I recognize you, and you are missing the point. I think it would be a great time if you are being taught, but it wont work very well if you are trying to teach yourself this way.

[Simple]

OK. I do understand about the Byn hall, but there is more to backstab than surprise and stealth.
There must be a way of training hitting certain points.
Opponent stands still with pads on the spine, jugular, trachea, and you train your accuracy. So you know when you've hit the vital spot. You can have all the surprise in the known world, but if you don't know the angle your blade has to enter, the strike is useless.

We can suspend disbelief, as we have to in this world, to imagine we are doing this in the sparring hall.

I'm new to these arguments, so shoot me down if I'm wrong. Emote ducks under ~shield

[Maybe42or54]

OK. I do understand about the Byn hall, but there is more to backstab than surprise and stealth.
There must be a way of training hitting certain points.
Opponent stands still with pads on the spine, jugular, trachea, and you train your accuracy. So you know when you've hit the vital spot. You can have all the surprise in the known world, but if you don't know the angle your blade has to enter, the strike is useless.

We can suspend disbelief, as we have to in this world, to imagine we are doing this in the sparring hall.

I'm new to these arguments, so shoot me down if I'm wrong. Emote ducks under ~shield

That situation should be logged and submitted to the staff. You are learning backstab, not training backstab there.

[Simple]

I think teaching would be educating someone on these vital areas, the anatomy of the body, why they are critical areas, angles of impact.

Actually practicing on a dummy or a person with pads is training, you're practicing techniques.

You shouldn't have to murder people to learn a new skill.

[Qzzrbl]

You shouldn't have to murder people to learn a new skill.

So.... I didn't have to slaughter everyone in that orphanage to learn leatherworking?

I'm so sad now....   

[psionic fungus]

I just don't think the primary, and possibly only realistic, way to train a skill should be to send in logs to the staff and increase their workload.

The one thing I think the helpfile is not stating correctly is that it gives the impression that backstab is just a critical strike. Yes, it is a critical strike. Yes, it is a called shot, but it is both at the same time performed on an unsuspecting target.

Exactly... So why have a separate skill for the ambush when it is merely a combination of other abilities?

Warriors have their own form of critical strikes, but it isn't a called shot(Read* You didn't call it). That is why they'll bludgeon the shit out of of my head. Pierce my neck. Etc.. I've been one hit ko'ed before. I've been killed, from full health, in three hits. This is performed on a suspecting target, or an unsuspecting  target. It works great both ways.

Wouldn't it be nice to be able to make a Called Shot (and modify your to-hit) and have an increased chance to make a Critical Strike (modified to-dam) if you succeed?

Rangers have their own form of called shot. It is called archery. I've almost been killed a few times like this. The same applies for this. It can be performed on a suspecting target, but it has a greater chance on an unsuspecting target.

Archery is not a Called Shot.  Shooting someone specifically in the leg, arm, or neck (depending on desired effect) is a Called Shot.

While combat may currently incorporate a vague "Critical Strike" type of damage bonus at time, it is not the same as having a separate skill to determine the amount of extra damage done when hitting a specific area (which would get a bonus with Called Shots).

The problem with actively trying to "train" backstab in a bynn sparring room is that you aren't training correctly. If I am the guard, I am actively looking for you and I know, for a fact, you are there. You, the assassin, are sneaking up on a target that knows you are there. Defeating the purpose. When you do sneak up on me, I recognize you, and you are missing the point. I think it would be a great time if you are being taught, but it wont work very well if you are trying to teach yourself this way.

I somewhat disagree.  With permission of a Sergeant or other instructor, a stealth assassin could certainly try a flanking maneuver on peers who were already sparring. [My cat sent the post at this point...]  You could certainly train Critical Strikes and Called Shots in sparring.  Flanking and ambushing are a bit more difficult to train, but they could still be incorporated into exercises...

It just doesn't make sense to start your average spar with a "backstab".

[Maybe42or54]

I agree with your situation, PF. I didn't agree with someone guarding and protecting against an assassin they know is coming. I always thought backstab should be a combo of Hide/sneak/stabbing weapons skill. Sounds more fun and less like I have to spam kill everything.

Simple, I agree, if you were using the pads and critical points to learn the move by thinking about it, vice practicing it.

The problem I see with having called shots is that it will go away from combat skill to who is less affected by lag, paying more attention, who knows all the commands. Like kick is now. I just don't want to see it.

[psionic fungus]

The problem I see with having called shots is that it will go away from combat skill to who is less affected by lag, paying more attention, who knows all the commands. Like kick is now. I just don't want to see it.

Predictably, I disagree.

I think it would be fairly easy to balance "Called Shots" with ordinary (passive) combat skills.  Personally, I would like to see attacks limited to one per 'round' of combat. Whether this is a "kick" (or "strike" as I would like to see implemented), a normal attack, a "disarm" attempt, or a "called shot"... A single active or passive attack per combat round (excluding the second attack of dual-wield).  The frequency of combat rounds is something that could depend on an agility (or speed) stat, and perhaps combat skills (offense?) as well, but I digress.

If a "Called Shot" lengthens the delay until your next round of combat and, if failed, opens your defenses to attack, I think it could certainly be balanced so that combat skills determine the outcome more than a player's meta-gaming skills.  "Critical Strikes" would also still be utilized in ordinary combat, albeit in a more passive manner (initiating a "Called Shot" would also attempt a "Critical Strike", in the system as I envision it). It may even be possible to balance with "Called Shots" utilizing the "Critical Strike" skill.

Long story short, the perceived problem is not a problem if 2.Arm combat functions the way I would like to see it.

[Maybe42or54]

I personally like the idea of backstab, I'd prefer it to be called shank, or just stab. I would also like backstab to be a mixture of stabbing weapons/hide/sneak. With a 20% decrease to skill when you don't hide or sneak.

Besides that, you aren't really doing anything all that special besides just trying to get a critical strike on the first go.

I am repeating myself. That is all I have to add to the conversation and I am done now.

[Krath]

What PF said.

[psionic fungus]

Shank?  Stab?  No, no... There is no need for any command other than "hit".

For some examples please check out these threads:

Combat System

Hunting vs. Fighting

The Health System for Arm 2

Fighting Styles, Anyone?

Weapon Skills

[jstorrie]

Shank?  Stab?  No, no... There is no need for any command other than "hit".

I agree. 'called shot' and 'critical strike' are among the commands that are not needed.

[psionic fungus]

I don't understand what you are saying.

"Called Shots" and "Critical Strikes" were never intended to have separate commands.  They are skills utilized by various classes in various ways during combat situations.  They must be coded skills, however they do not require -new- commands to utilize.

Were you agreeing with this, or just saying the abilities were altogether unneeded (without giving any argument or reason)?

[Krath]

Ok another question on why you cant train backstab. Your argument Jstorrie is that it is a suprise critical strike correct? If that is incorrect then the previous post you made contradicts what you are saying. If you can land a critical strike on a pc that is expecting it, and inflict the maximum amount of pain or damage, then you should be able to suprise an opponent with your critical strike with more accuracy than you normally would if you were training. As far as you saying your not sneaking or hiding or suprising the pc, the help file, which Vanth sent me to, on the ask the staff forum, to explain the backstab skill, says nothing about needing to sneak up on a pc or be hidden. The only difference between your idea of a "surprise critical strike" and a sneak/hidden one is that the opponent does not know. Where does it say that you have to be hidden, or that it has to be a surprise attack? It does not, anywhere. The only added notes to the help file are:

    Notes:
    It is possible, though difficult, to backstab fighting victims.

    You must always use a 'stabbing' weapon, which is a subset of the
    'piercing' category.

    Backstab is an excellent method of attack if one's presence ought to be
    unnoticed by soldiers of city-states. (Of course, any ensuing fight can
    attract attention.)

You are basing your argument on what players perceive the backstab skill as it is suppose to be, not the staffs, who, go directly by the help documentation.
Here is the link:
http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,29943.0.html

[jstorrie]

Ok another question on why you cant train backstab. Your argument Jstorrie is that it is a suprise critical strike correct? If that is incorrect then the previous post you made contradicts what you are saying.

Uh, as I just explained a few posts up,

If you think I mean 'hidden status' by 'position of surprise' you are misinterpreting my posts.

Where does it say that you have to be hidden...

The help file does not say that you have to be hidden, nor do I. The help file and I both specifically say that you don't have to be hidden.

...or that it has to be a surprise attack?

The help file does not say that it has to be a surprise attack, but in-play evidence does. You can't backstab someone you are already in combat with.

I wouldn't swing that Ask-the-Staff post around like some kind of rhetorical hammer +5. You asked a very leading question and received a very curt response. If you want to get nitpicky about things like this, I would suggest that nowhere in Vanth's post does Vanth say the staff consider the help documentation to be the final arbiter for game concepts, either–so you've misconstrued both my argument and now Vanth's.

I'm going to bow out of this thread since I believe I've already presented my position fine enough and the OP's question was certainly answered ages ago. For the final recap–
• Surprise seems to be a necessary part of backstab, so training against people who are aware seems nonsensical.
• I feel that a single passive skill which is invoked whenever you attack someone who is unaware/flat-footed would be less problematic than our current backstab system.

[Kalden]

A contrary example: you can backstab people who are watching you, I believe.

[psionic fungus]

The help file does not say that it has to be a surprise attack, but in-play evidence does.

This is not entirely true, however.

You can't backstab someone you are already in combat with.

You can "disengage" and "backstab" to attempt flanking maneuvers...

It's rather difficult to flank someone who is actively fighting -you-, of course.

[Lenny Poppo]

But really, it's just one skill, man. If you can't find a way to train it in the role you're in, just don't train it. It's not going to ruin the game for you.

The problem is that the branching system encourages practicing skills you don't need, just in case they are the key to getting a skill you would use all the time.


Suppose you want to play an intrepid explorer.  Now you know that the Climb skill would be very, very handy, but in general the best guild would be Ranger.  You believe that Rangers can branch Climb, so it's all good.  (For whatever reason, you can't get a subguild with Climb).  Unfortunately, you haven't memorized the skill trees and you have no idea which of skills you currently possess might eventually branch to Climb.  Archery?  Hunt?  Cooking?  Who knows, it is a mystery.  You can make do with using climbing ropes and other equipment to help you climb without the skill, but no matter how much climbing you do (nor how many times you fall on your head and knock yourself out) you will never develop the Climb skill until you master the branching skill.  Since you don't know which skill is important, you find yourself cooking up unending piles of tubers just in case Cooking is the secret to life.   

Mages have the same problem, in spades.  Most of the starting spells seem kind of lame, at least the power level a newbie mage can manage.  But since people are always complaining about mages being overpowered, you have to assume that something cool hides behind a lame starting spell.  So you are left casting spells you don't need, spells your character may have no conceivable use for, just to get past it.  Suppose you had a starting spell that turns things purple.  You don't even like purple!  But you've turned everything you own purple, hopes of getting past the purple spell.  You've even gone out and bought cheap crap, just so that you could turn it purple.  You pick up trash off the streets just so you can take it home and turn it purple.  Your temple is piled to the rafters with purple crap.  And once you branch whatever branches off of Purplize, you will never ever turn anything purple every again.  You don't even like purple.

HAHAHAHAHAAHAHA

best post ever - and it's all true