Intention and You, and Me, and Them

[Gimfalisette]

Lately I've been feeling pretty down about a particular phenomena that crops up here on the forums, and comes through over IM, and via any vehicle that ARM players use to communicate to one another. To illustrate, some examples:

"That player is an asshole. We just had a scene together and s/he didn't include me / overreacted / lagged on response time / other horrible thing. I can't stand that kind of player!"

"That player is playing wrong. The documentation clearly states that <something in the docs>, and instead, s/he did <other thing>! I sure hope they don't have karma, how disgusting!"

"That clan leader is so incompetent. I have no idea why the imms gave them that role! They're playing it totally wrong and bad!"

"I can't believe they just killed me! That player is a twinky, PK-happy loot whore! There was no possible IC reason they killed my character! Also I think they should have emoted!"

"That imm is an asshole. I asked for this tiny little thing which was a totally easy fix/item/request, and his/her response was totally rude!"

"That imm is totally unfair. I asked for <thing> and was told last week I couldn't have it, but this other character just got <same thing>!"

"OMG the imms sent me an email and told me to stop doing something! They hate me! They want to kill my character!"

"You disagree with me on the forums! Therefore you must be a sexist, racist, homophobic, grandstanding, attention-whoring, fascistic, politically-correct, terrible player--the kind I never ever ever want to play with, and I bet all your characters are documentation-ignoring, twinkish assholes too!"

The thing that's wrong with all of the above is that the statements are based on the assumption that the other player or imm being referred to has negative intentions toward the statement-maker. When one assumes that the intentions of "other" are negative, then any actions taken by "other" are necessarily wrong-bad-offensive.

But what if we just stepped out of ourselves for a moment, and began from the assumption that the other's intention is positive?

If we assume that every imm is dedicated to the well-being of the game as a whole, and passionately enjoys or loves ARM, then maybe we could think:

"I asked for something I thought was small. The imm said it wasn't possible right now and they didn't want to spend the time on it. Maybe that's because they're working so hard on 2.ARM. Well, it sucks I didn't get what I wanted, but I'm looking forward to what they're doing."

If we assume that clan leaders are just players who want to have fun like we do, and they've possibly been thrust into a new role with little previous experience:

"Wow, my clan leader is really trying to provide us with fun things to do, even if the execution is kind of screwed up. The role must be really hard. I wonder what I could do to help out."

If we assume that other players are really trying to adhere to the documentation with all their might, while also allowing for character development:

"Interesting how that character reacted. I wonder what might have gone on before, that I don't know about. I wonder if I could get closer to that character and find out about it."

If we assume that not every player is possessed of the same strengths when it comes to RP, and sometimes just can't figure out how to interact regardless of how much they want to:

"That poor guy at the bar. Maybe he has no idea what to say to my character. Maybe I should start something up. This -is- a tough situation from an RP perspective."

I hope you all get what I'm saying here, even though I'm not being incredibly articulate. I think the game...and us...would benefit if we'd just extend the olive branch of OOC forgiveness to each other much more often, instead of jumping to nasty conclusions based on insufficient evidence about the other guy.

[Lizzie]

Yep, I give the benefit of the doubt all the time. I've had leader characters who have hired other characters who were RP'ed SO poorly I knew I was going to be stuck being the Syntax-Teacher instead of an IC leader with the guy..did it anyway, became that teacher, spent a RL month guiding, helping, supplying things to do, assisting with goals, and ended up banging my head against the wall when said student bit the dust doing "Something Stupid"TM.

And then I'd go and do it with "Syntax Student #53."

Eventually though, you start thinking, you know, *I* am here to have fun too, and this isn't fun, and I'm tired of all those other players thinking their PCs should send all the clueless folks to my PC, just because I happen to be pretty decent at dealing with them. I need a break, no more, clan closed for new members until further notice, sucks to be all of you.

And then THAT ends up not being fair either, and I notice a post on the board hinting that some people just like to complain a lot. But then, maybe some of us who like to complain a lot, have spent hours and hours and weeks and weeks helping people, putting our faith in others, trusting the RP of other, and been disappointed over and over and over until finally we just bust loose.

Or, some people just like to complain a lot

[Gimfalisette]

Sometimes I complain a lot too.

But it never makes me feel better. And it never solves anything.

[Lizzie]

Sometimes I complain a lot too.

But it never makes me feel better. And it never solves anything.

Then you're doing it wrong.

[Spud]

This really happens? How silly.

[Gimfalisette]

This really happens? How silly.

You really only have to read the forums to see that it happens all the time.

[Spud]

Here I was, thinking the board was for discussion.

[Folker]

Ergh. My "just kidding" post got removed.

[Spud]

Edit: Wasn't paying attention and quoted myself..

Might aswell say something else..hmm.

This is text..its easy to be misunderstood..

[Dalmeth]

Yep, I give the benefit of the doubt all the time. I've had leader characters who have hired other characters who were RP'ed SO poorly I knew I was going to be stuck being the Syntax-Teacher instead of an IC leader with the guy..did it anyway, became that teacher, spent a RL month guiding, helping, supplying things to do, assisting with goals, and ended up banging my head against the wall when said student bit the dust doing "Something Stupid"TM.

But ya know, sometimes you meet up again with that player later with another character, and you find they're doing well and enjoying themselves.  That's one of the best feelings in the world.

[DANCE COMMANDER]

I think the only valid answer is that a lot of Arm players are whiny.

[Reiloth]

I think the only valid answer is that a lot of Arm players are whiny.

Man. So true. YOU ALL ARE SOOOO WHINY NYEEEEH.

I say 'meh' to the post. I mean, I totally see what Gimf is saying, but its personal preference. I don't really -care- when people whine to me over IM or the boards or OOC or anything really. They can whine all they want, and I can not respond all that I like. Or tell them they are a tool and to sack up.

[Yam]

Welcome to human nature.

[Flying Erdlu]

What if my cup is half empty?

What if I am envious of your stinking half full cup! It's not fair, why can't -I- get a cup that's half full? But NOOOO...all I get is this damned half empty one. Simply not fair.

Otherwise, I agree. But I'm usually a self proclaimed brightside lookeratter.

[rishenko]

Welcome to human nature.

^^^ Truth.

People bitch. 

People moan. 

People need to vent. 

*Question is, are you/we offering good advice in return?




*Disclaimer:  Please note that self-righteous bullshit being spouted from a supposed pedestal of perfection in an attempt to make oneself look better does not count as good advice.

[mansa]

I used to play the OOC game.  I had a friend's list over 100 of Armageddon players.

Then I just got tired of it.  I think I got tired of the internet.

My IM list has about 20 Armageddon players on it now - friends that I've had for over 9 years now.  And I don't talk with most of them about Armageddon.  Usually it's about other things that I'm interested in, or funny links that I come across.  I deleted the rest of the people.

I realize that the most fun in Armageddon is when nobody knows who I am, or what I'm doing, or what skills I have, or are questioning me over an Instant Messenger, or even telling me their fantastically awesome stories of their characters.

Maybe I'm just slowly fading away from the game.

[a strange shadow]

On the contrary, it sounds like you're learning to play it.

I have always communicated very little with people outside the game about the game itself.

I'm still going strong after 5 years, and I think part of the reason is because I ignore the OOC cliques and bullshit.

So maybe you're just fading away from the community. It depends on what you play Armageddon for.

[Southie]

I realize that the most fun in Armageddon is when nobody knows who I am, or what I'm doing, or what skills I have, or are questioning me over an Instant Messenger, or even telling me their fantastically awesome stories of their characters.

[Dresan]

About complaining: everyone always has something to complain about especially about things they love. Too many bard, not enough bards, too many rangers, too many magickers, i hate indoor rangers, backstab rat assassins, when people roleplay like this, when people roleplay like that, stop acceptiong applications, damn month long application waits....its goes on and on and on...thats what these discussion boards are for, people discuss various aspects of the game and its never been pretty,ever...in fact it really used to be alot uglier when i first joined.

I don't think i see too many of the examples that Gimfalisette has stated on this board. For two reason : one. they almost all involve context that would be consider IC information and staff cracks down on that and two, when they do pop up its often from a newer player who doesn't know better and they get corrected (sometimes too harshly) by other arm players anyways. Therefore most of those examples are really things you'd here through IM, chats and/or other communication methods.

I don't IM or use anything other then this board  because I know the game is more enjoyable that way and frankly thats all i care about. I don't even use this log in for clans because it also improves RP around me, no one can link my ideas with my character. That said not everyone feels this way and i can't, for lack of a better word, 'blame' people for contacting each other OOCly, maybe they want to make friend, or get to know people whatever...but the consequences is you get exposed to those comments and example. If you play the OOC game like mansa mentioned, this is what you have to deal with, some people are like this...its shouldn't come as any suprise since thats human nature.

EDITTED: because i stopped reading half way through the OP post orginally.  Anyways the biggest problem with the examples Gimfalisette shows is not the complaining but the IC info possibly being shared and just the fact that it seems people are talking badly about other behind their backs. Its pathetic regardless of the reasons. 

[Synthesis]

Complaining about the complainers.

Meta-complaining FTW?

I hereby register a complaint about people who complain about complainers.

[staggerlee]

I wholeheartedly agree with the intent of the OP. Allow me to explain.

I started playing RPI muds about ten or so years ago.  Throughout that time I've played assassins, leaders, guards, merchants, a long string of nobodies and  somebodies in no particular order.  I find that in the last year or so my enjoyment and effectiveness in any and all of those roles has increased dramatically.   

I screwed up plots for staff and players in my early days, by guess what, not trusting them.  Killing people when I should have left them alive, overlooking options and directions plots could go, ignoring people, avoiding people, I could go on. What it came down ti is that on numerous occasions I was unwilling to trust other players or staff, I couldn't bring myself to believe that they were portraying their character to the best of their ability and were playing the game with my fun as well as theirs in mind.  I was afraid they were out to get me, a poor rper that would screw something up, that if I emoted before killing them they'd spam kill me. Who knows what else.

After a substantial break from these games I started here, and have forced myself to assume that other people are interacting with me for both of our enjoyment, that it's a communal game.  What's more, assuming that they might know things that I don't, and that I have no way of knowing their intentions or judging their rp in an objective way.

I realize that sometimes other players and staff may be out to get me, absolutely hate me, or be terrible abusive powergamers. It's possible. Hell it's happened, sometimes everyone is out to get you. But at the end of the day by assuming their intentions are good, my enjoyment and effectiveness have gone up dramatically.


To tie this in.  Discussions on this board get heated really, really fast.  People respond to the poster, not the post, they get emotional, and they're often not working together in the interest of the game.  I hear about how law enforcement pcs are too harsh, rinther pcs kill too much, people in silks just play for mudsex, nobody playing  a magicker knows how to rp. Take your pick. 

The common theme seems to be assuming that you know how to play the game right, and the people that disagree don't.  That's what needs to stop.  People aren't supposed to be competing ooc, ooc we're playing a cooperative game.  You don't have all the information, and there isn't one way to play right, so don't assume that other guy is doing something wrong.

Even beyond the health of the community as a whole, it's much more personally gratifying to be constructive and positive than to be bitchy and paranoid.  It's a game, if you can't think of it as a shared project, a fun, positive game, then maybe it's time to rethink why you're playing. 

[Gimfalisette]

staggerlee gets it.

[Shiroi Tsuki]

I would also point out, that you can complain about something without assuming that the person behind whatever it is you're whining about has bad intentions.  I don't think the OP is complaining about the level of complaining, as much as it is pointing out that a lot of the complaining seems to be based on complaints that have the background idea that others are 'out to get them'.

I bitch and moan probably as much, or more, than the average of everyone else.  But I try to keep in mind that people here ALL want to have fun, very few people are going to play this game to set out to 'get' someone due to OOC motivations (and those that do tend to be dealt with harshly), and most importantly, that the staff is trying to help us have fun.  It can get really hairy when people get into the mindset that the actual staff is out to get them.

We don't all need to be a big happy family or anything like that, but it is good to keep in mind that most of the players in the game aren't out to get you.  The characters, maybe.  The players?  Not so much.

[Mood]

I totally linked Gimf here last night.

It was great.

[Gimfalisette]

I totally linked Gimf here last night.

It was great.

Insolent whippersnapper.

Even I need reminders. You didn't think I wrote all that just for YOU, did you?