Attribute Prioritization

[jstorrie]

Too grainy, I think. I like the system the way it is; stat prioritization fixed the poor strength problem to my satisfaction. The remaining issue, in my opinion, is that the utility of the stats is unbalanced–a warrior, I think, should value strength, agility, and endurance equally. The AI Strength warrior shouldn't be better than the AI Agility warrior–they should just be different.

[IntuitiveApathy]

Too grainy, I think. I like the system the way it is; stat prioritization fixed the poor strength problem to my satisfaction. The remaining issue, in my opinion, is that the utility of the stats is unbalanced–a warrior, I think, should value strength, agility, and endurance equally. The AI Strength warrior shouldn't be better than the AI Agility warrior–they should just be different.

I'd like to see this change as well.  Not only for fighting classes, but across the board.  For instance, wisdom might not be the only stat fully important to a mage any longer - maybe some spells could depend or receive bonuses from some of the other stats.  This would help create more variety in characters, especially skilled characters.  And variety can only lead to a richer game world in terms of RP.

[Salt Merchant]

Why only four stats? Why not a fifth one that represents the senses, namely perception?

[Dalmeth]

Why only four stats? Why not a fifth one that represents the senses, namely perception?

Shouldn't wisdom cover that?

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I like the system the way it is; stat prioritization fixed the poor strength problem to my satisfaction. The remaining issue, in my opinion, is that the utility of the stats is unbalanced–a warrior, I think, should value strength, agility, and endurance equally. The AI Strength warrior shouldn't be better than the AI Agility warrior–they should just be different.

I agree with this nearly whole-heartedly. What I would like to see, though, is the ability to shift stats, for instance, during the same timer that the newbie death and reroll share:

Code Select Expand


Your strength is good, your wisdom is good, your agility is good, and your endurance is good.

> change stats +1 strength, -1 agility
You have two more chances to change your stats within the next two hours.
Stats changed.

Your strength is very good, your wisdom is good, your agility is above average, and your endurance is good.

> change stats +1 strength, -1 wisdom
You have one more chance to change your stats within the next 1 hour, 57 minutes.
Stats changed.

Your strength is extremely good, your wisdom is above average, your agility is average, and your endurance is good.

> change stats +3 strength, -2 agility, -1 endurance
You have used all of your chances to change your stats.
Stats changed.

Your strength is absolutely incredible, your wisdom is good, your agility is poor, and your endurance is average.


[Troicha]

I agree with 7DV, except that you should only be able to change the prioritization, instead of the raw numbers. The guild/race modifiers and the rolled numbers stay the same.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I agree with 7DV, except that you should only be able to change the prioritization, instead of the raw numbers. The guild/race modifiers and the rolled numbers stay the same.

That you can already do. I believe that when you type reroll, you can input the stats in the order of priority already. I'd rather ... honestly, I would ... dammit. I don't care. but I like my idea. Fuck rationalization. *grin*

[lurkus ignoramus]

So, there are other players uncomfortable with the idea of players messing with actual numbers?

That said, has anyone else ever been annoyed with the vagueness of Arm's stat system?

Why are there only four stats, and why do they each cover multiple areas?

Perhaps a more precise system would be preferable?

STRENGTH determines how hard a player hits and how much they can lift?
ENDURANCE determines the amount one tires?
CONSTITUTION determines the amount of damage a character can take?
WISDOM determines the amount of mana a player can channel?
WILLPOWER determines mental fortitude for psionics, etcetera?
INTELLIGENCE determines rate of learning, etc?
AGILITY effects movement speed, combat, climbing, etc?
DEXTERITY effects crafting, pick pocketing, other skills?
CHARISMA effects reputation, etc?

Would more stats lead to more character diversity?

What are the detrimental aspects of introducing more stats?

[Qzzrbl]

How could reputation be hard-coded into something that justifies it having it's own stat?

[lurkus ignoramus]

Like in the Elder Scroll games?

Reputation:

A character can increase/decrease their relationship with a particular location by significant interactions (link to an Oblivion type system that has been proposed removed).

Caravans can be attacked by other PCs. Taking down wagons is a considerable undertaking and should require at least three or four experienced PCs working together. Caravans can be disabled, in which case they are destroyed but can have their material salvaged. They can also be shanghaied, which is considerably more difficult and requires either someone on the inside or someone capable of leaping off their mount onto the caravan and fighting their way inside.

When a PC raids a caravan, they acquire negative reputation in both of the cities the wagon's route is between. Negative reputation can affect shop and service prices, the willingness of caravans to carry a PC, and if great enough, may lead to a PC being outlawed from a location.

PCs can be hired as caravan guards if they have a positive reputation with the location that the caravan is leaving from.

It has been stated several places that reputation will be used in lieu of the current criminal code, etc...

Does it make sense that a character written as a beautiful street urchin should have a reputation bonus to interactions?

Shouldn't a beautiful upper-class character have some coded way to effect interactions that gives them a bonus (or detriment in places like the labyrinth) based on their IC looks?

Likewise, wouldn't it make sense if some really hideously mutated freak got more negative reactions from shopkeepers, etc?

[Maybe42or54]

No, I would like the stats to evolve into a system with 32 different things, seperated into 4 groups that mean the same exact damn thing. New players will have an even harder time because now, the stats themselves make no sense.


Did you steal this from another game? Sounds to forced to me.

Wisdom and intelligence sound like the same thing.
Willpower and Endurance are also, but used in different circumstances.
Endurance, strength, wisdom play too much into constitution for constitution to be its own stat IMHO.
Agility and Dexterity are also.
Charisma makes no sense in a game like Armageddon. I can badmouth the merchant in front of his face and he wont recognize it, while still giving me a bonus because I'm pretty? It will encourage tooo many cute players and the game will lose harshness.

No thank you.

[staggerlee]

I'd love a system where we don't have to look at/worry about our stats and could take the cards we're dealt and go about life.
It'd require trusting the staff and accepting that life isn't fair, but I think the game would be more fun for it.

[Maybe42or54]

It has been stated several places that reputation will be used in lieu of the current criminal code, etc...

Does it make sense that a character written as a beautiful street urchin should have a reputation bonus to interactions?

Shouldn't a beautiful upper-class character have some coded way to effect interactions that gives them a bonus (or detriment in places like the labyrinth) based on their IC looks?

Likewise, wouldn't it make sense if some really hideously mutated freak got more negative reactions from shopkeepers, etc?

Beautiful street urchin? How many are like that? How many merchants would risk not being able to buy water so a little unkempt kid can get a discount on rat meat? Not many.

Beautiful upper-class characters should give them a bonus because they are upper class and they deserve it. Not because someone is throwing RL beauty into a game where most people are probably not going to be RL pretty.

[lurkus ignoramus]

Beautiful street urchin? How many are like that?

Maybe one out of a dozen that some upper-class pervert is picking through to buy his next sex slave?

Is it really appropriate to attack this aspect of the idea?

Did you steal this from another game? Sounds to forced to me.

Maybe I doubled the current stats for symmetry, but aren't there important distinctions between some of these proposed stats?

Wisdom and intelligence sound like the same thing.

Could wisdom have to do with (soft) learning caps and mana, while intelligence deals with rate of learning?

Willpower and Endurance are also, but used in different circumstances.

Wouldn't the distinction allow for characters or races that were physically weak but mentally strong?

Likewise, wouldn't it allow for brutishly strong characters that were mentally weak?

Endurance, strength, wisdom play too much into constitution for constitution to be its own stat IMHO.
Agility and Dexterity are also.

Could stats be grouped to effect one another?

Do weight lifters have the same stats as marathon runners?

Are agility and dexterity really that related?

Can you not be incredibly dexterous -sewing, playing guitar, or painting on pin-heads- while simultaneously paraplegic?

Are paraplegics agile?

Charisma makes no sense in a game like Armageddon. I can badmouth the merchant in front of his face and he wont recognize it, while still giving me a bonus because I'm pretty? It will encourage tooo many cute players and the game will lose harshness.

Does charisma -have- to equal beauty?

Should you be able to bad-mouth the merchant?

Shouldn't some stat effect reputation?

Wouldn't it be nice to see f-mes and other unnaturally beautiful PCs sacrifice some other stats to give charisma priority?

[X-D]

Actually...Agility and dex are not the same thing...And is in fact the ONLY stat in arm that bUGS  the shit out of me. One Agility, requires strength. The other does not.  An agile person Must be fit enough and have enough muscle to BE agile. But you can be weak as a kitten and still be dextrouse.

IG though, they are considered one and the same. So...you see PCs with AI agi and poor strength...Not even strong enough to EP a sparring dagger, Still somehow strong enough to do flying ninja tricks and move the entire body fast enough to avoid blows and climb  walls with ease.

I for one would love to see Dex added and agility be more strongly linked to str and enc.

Oh...and I'm still against stat ordering/arranging/placing bonus numbers...bleh

[Maybe42or54]

Without getting too in to specifics, Agile mind and Agile feet are not the same as a Dextrous Mind and Dextrous feet?
Mentally Agile. Dextrous Fingers.

It is the same to me. If the place wants mentally quick and physically quick to be different stats, then so be it, but I don't think we should have more then 6 stats. Too much to me after 6.

[lurkus ignoramus]

How does that relate to agility and dexterity as stats in a role playing game?

Doesn't it make sense to separate a character's proficiency at movement of the whole body vs. deft movement of the hands?

Why would one be directly linked to the other?

[LittleLostThief]

Like in real life, there is a holy trinity that governs most physical endeavors.

Strength, Speed, and Skill.

Though you must be at least slightly fit to have speed, you do not necessarily have to be strong to possess it.  I personally have a below average strength for a human, but I consider myself at least very good in agility. 

You could easily wind up with one or two of these attributes and be pretty awesome at the things that you want to do.

But people that have all three will always p00n you.

[Only He Stands There]

Whatever occurs, please limit the number of stats to something below, at the very most, eight.

Nothing is harder than prioritizing twelve or more different stats. Look at Harshlands - Strength, Constitution, Intelligence, Aura, Willpower, Dexterity, Agility, Comeliness, Voice, Touch, Taste/Smell, I don't even remember what else. And honestly, who's not going to use comeliness, voice, touch, and taste/smell as dump stats?

The current four to a maximum of eight, please. Any more is too much.

[Malken]

Whatever occurs, please limit the number of stats to something below, at the very most, eight.

Nothing is harder than prioritizing twelve or more different stats. Look at Harshlands - Strength, Constitution, Intelligence, Aura, Willpower, Dexterity, Agility, Comeliness, Voice, Touch, Taste/Smell, I don't even remember what else. And honestly, who's not going to use comeliness, voice, touch, and taste/smell as dump stats?

The current four to a maximum of eight, please. Any more is too much.

I know that not many are going to agree with me, and that we can argue forever about this, but I don't think it's "fair" that combat-oriented classes need to have and use three out of the four stats, when magick-oriented classes really just need wisdom and we all know that prioritizing wisdom will always give you at a minimum very good+

I'd like for the magick classes to have some sort of "magick" stat, since magick is not something you learn, it's in you. So, SOI and HL uses Aura.. I think that magick classes should have something like that as well, to define their mana and how fast they regenerate, and wisdom would be what wisdom already is, minus the mana part..

I know that some are going to tell me that agility, or strength or whatever is very important to them when they play a magicker, but c'mon.

And hey, they made -me- prioritize comeliness when I was playing a Solithar on HL, hah.. Urgh, I felt so dirty, not prioritize dexterity and strength as a warrior, tsk!

[Ghost]

Nothing is harder than prioritizing twelve or more different stats. Look at Harshlands - Strength, Constitution, Intelligence, Aura, Willpower, Dexterity, Agility, Comeliness, Voice, Touch, Taste/Smell, I don't even remember what else. And honestly, who's not going to use comeliness, voice, touch, and taste/smell as dump stats?

srsly?

How does voice stat affect your play?  Only with high voice stat you can emote the sexy tones or something?

And don't even get me started on touch

[rishenko]

who's not going to use comeliness, voice, touch, and taste/smell as dump stats?

What if the staff enforced their attitude/personality/looks to match?  Otherwise, you would have a bunch of fuck-nasty, disgusting looking outcasts, or social retards, which would destroy the softly-spoken, beautiful people who love to take it up their perfectly formed asses.  And folks...that just ain't gonna happen on Arm.

[Adiadochokinesis]

Four stats like we've always had. Anything else is silly.

[Dalmeth]

I think we would be just fine with three stats.  Get rid of agility.  Too often, it feels like a stat for raw skill, which should be governed by wisdom.

I think we could leave all the things agility currently governs to a system that calculates by strength, encumbrance, and a racial modifier.

[Qzzrbl]

Four stats like we've always had. Anything else is silly.